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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#31876: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:47:24 PM

The only reason Cinder Struggled with Pyrrha was because she wasn't going all out. She was shown to be far more powerful during her fight with Ozpin then Pyrrha, for instance.

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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#31877: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:54:29 PM

that's highly unlikely considering cinder's personality. cinder was definitely going all out.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31878: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:57:00 PM

Also, it's unlikely that Ozpin's fate was simply "lost to Cinder in a fight".

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#31879: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:01:47 PM

Someone pointed out that Cinder apparantly had dust sewn into her outfit and was using it against Ozpin, but not against Pyrrha.

Which means either she was holding back or she used it all up and was slightly weaker against her.

But yeah, the finale would have been less jarring if they had a cushion of at least one of the heroes getting to one up the villains in some way besides a random superpower burst that came in too late to really help (Why didn't Penny get the same reaction? Ruby was much closer to her, than Pyrrha who they barely had any interaction with the entire show). Yeah Roman died, but that was because of the Grimm randomly turning on him. Otherwise he kicked Ruby's ass and would have killed her.

Instead it's total victory and the look that nothing the heroes ever do can stop them and we might as well just declare Salem the winner now and not bother with the show anymore.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#31880: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:08:04 PM

[up] The only loss the villains got wasn't that big. Roman was eaten and Cinder is probably with an angry expression on top of the tower, providing she got frozen.

The Silver Eyes aren't that big of an Ass Pull. It just a detail that was poorly introduced but we'll see how they handle it from now on. Here hoping it's doesn't become another Sharingan *Fingers crossed*

edited 12th Apr '16 3:08:53 PM by fasoman1996

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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#31881: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:08:51 PM

Though to be fair regarding Roman, he was never intended to be a major character.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#31882: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:13:02 PM

Why didn't Penny get the same reaction? Ruby was much closer to her, than Pyrrha who they barely had any interaction with the entire show.

Pyrrha was the straw that broke the camel's back, Penny was the other 900 lbs of straws already on the camel before that. Ruby came and saw Penny already dead, with Pyrrha she arrived just in time to watch her be executed. Kinda does things to a person.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#31883: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:13:23 PM

The point I was responding to is that Cinder & Co. only seem overpowered because we've only seen them fight students. I was pointing out that this isn't the case. We see the three of them fight the Fall Maiden and win, without having any obvious supernatural assistance besides the beetle thing that Cinder uses to steal Fall's power.

Which is because the ambush was planned beforehand, and even then it wasn't an easy win for them.

I agree that Emerald is probably the weakest of the three in combat, but that merely brings her down to "one of the best fighters her age in the world" instead of "one of the best fighters in the world" — and her illusions make her nigh-unbeatable against a single opponent (until and unless some as-yet-unmentioned counter is introduced). And more to the point, her being a (relatively) weak fighter hasn't stopped the villains from doing anything they want, which is really the core of the complaint.

Except Emerald is neither and when her hand is shown she will lose that advantage. Despite the insistence otherwise, Emerald's Semblance isn't a game breaker. If she relies on it in a one-on-one fight the moment opponent catches on she is screwed. We see a glimpse of in the the fight against Amber.

Howso? Sure, they busted up his camp, but that was hardly the extent of the total force he had at his disposal. He'd made it clear that he wouldn't work with a human for no other reason than because they were human — I can't think of a legitimate reason he would change his mind on that point beyond not thinking that he could defeat them. Can't run your Glorious Revolution if you're dead, after all.

Pretty sure that was my point. Who did Adam have there other than his lieutenant that was capable of fighting back? What would he gain if he did? If fighting back seemed like a viable option I have no doubt he would choose to do so, but at that point it was a no-win scenario regardless of the power Cinder possessed.

relic Since: Oct, 2010
#31884: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:16:18 PM

It's kinda cute he thinks the kingdom of Vale fell. It didn't, it does however have a massive chunk of Grimm territory in the area that used to be Beacon. Also the internet isn't working because one of the tower things is broken.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#31885: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:17:22 PM

Cinder appeared to be going flat out against Ozpin and couldn't handle him. On the other hand, Ozpin appeared to be using very little of his own abilities. For example, pay close attention to his cane - we don't know what that lever on his handle is for, but he never, ever uses it - that cane was barely more than a staff weapon in that fight; whatever it's true purpose is, we did not see it revealed in that fight.

Yes, we saw him move at super-speed, throw off a couple of flashy sparks every now and then and throw up a big crackling barrier. That's all he did, and Cinder really struggled with just that. I'll give her props for sheer determination in that fight, but it's pretty much all she had going for her. That very last scene of the fight we see, she's firing directly at him, full blast, and he's ploughing through it so fast, she may as well not bother firing anything at all.

From what little we saw of Ozpin's battle, Cinder - at full Fall Maiden power - is no match. Something else happened. He was not defeated by Cinder; I think we've seen enough of that fight to be certain of that. He's either faked a consequence to make Cinder believe she won, or Salem staged some kind of personal intervention, which saved Cinder from defeat and captured Ozpin.

I'm pretty certain that the reason Salem turned around to face the camera at the end of the finale is because Ozpin was standing behind her. My thinking is that the narration during the pilot episode was a conversation occurring at the series 3 finale, and therefore the first three series' is just a How We Got Here section to bring us up to speed with where the story really is during the pilot narration.

The question is whether Ozpin is freely there or a prisoner. I am also suspicious that Qrow has an idea of what happened to Ozpin that he's not sharing with anyone else and he's carrying that cane because he either knows he and Ozpin are going to meet up again, or he knows that cane needs to be used at a specific moment in time when a specific event happens.

edited 12th Apr '16 3:25:50 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#31886: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:47:35 PM

I can think of a very obvious counter to Emerald's powers: Being Blind. Illusions only work on those who can see them sweetheart.

That might work for Neo, but Emmy's illusions have been auditory as well.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#31887: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:48:35 PM

Then clearly they need to introduce a character named Tommy who is deaf, dumb, and blind, and his weapon is a pinball machine that turns into a machine gun guitar.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#31888: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:51:30 PM

Assuming Fox is blind and sees through some sort of Semblence sense like people assuming Emerald probably wouldn't be able to trick that.

Alternatively either always bring a friend against Emerald or pay very close attention to detail. If Ruby fighting Emerald in Vol 4 and Yang suddenly shows up with two flesh arms, that's obviously an illusion.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31889: Apr 12th 2016 at 3:57:13 PM

Personally, i can agree on certain aspects of your arguments (Like Emerald's bullshit powers and Cinder's almost flawless planning).
Honestly, I haven't even gotten into the fact that Cinder's plan falls straight into Gambit Roulette territory, especially in the way she had Emerald use her powers during the tournament. What if Yang had blocked or dodged Mercury's "attack" instead of countering it? Hell, what if she'd countered it with a punch or a grab instead of a shot? What if the shot had missed Mercury, or hit him somewhere other than his artificial legs? (Emerald could have sort of aimed by changing the angle the illusion was coming from, but the exact direction of the attack is extremely dependant on Yang's timing, which Emerald couldn't influence.) Same sort of problems with Penny's fight — hell, for that matter, why didn't Penny just fly away along with all her blades, given that Pyrrha seems to have done a blanket "shove everything metal away from me" blast, and Penny is made of metal.

I can think of a very obvious counter to Emerald's powers: Being Blind.
Emerald's illusions include sound at least. Illusory-Mercury speaks to Yang, and the fake little girl used to lure the Fall Maiden into the ambush makes noise as well. We haven't seen the limit of her power, exactly, but it's not as simple as "if I close my eyes she can't use illusions against me".

Highly unlikely to stay that way because remember: SHE'S A FRIGGING GYNOID. Grievous dismemberment isn't too much of a problem for androids.
That's what I thought when it first happened, but given everything else? I'm less sure.

No we haven't [seen just as much of the villains in RWBY as we see of the heroes].
Not literally, no, but my point was that the audience knows far more about what the villains are doing than the protagonists do. We see the villains talking among themselves, when no heroes are present. We know that they're manipulating the Vital Tournament for example, and the cuts between the crowd booing the results of Emerald's illusions and agitated grimm outside the city make it clear that they're deliberately drawing grimm in to attack Vale. The culmination of the villains' plan was shocking to the heroes, because they hadn't seen any of the planning and preparation. We, the audience, had seen all that, so we had at least some idea of what to expect, which makes the "surprise" of their plan coming together in the end fall flat.

Oh, something else I forgot. Where the hell did that dragon thing come from? That was pretty bullshit too.

Whats more effective

The bomb going off suddenly without warning -You and the characters find out at the same time-

You knows there is a bomb that is going to go off infact you know exactly where the bomb is but the characters don't.

If you want to shock the audience? The first one. If the goal was to take the audience by surprise, shift the tone to something darker, and let the viewers know that the story is playing for keeps now? Absolutely without question, the first one. It sends the message that before, the villains were laying low, keeping themselves out of sight in order to put their plans into place. Maybe they even avoided killing the heroes deliberately, as a manhunt for the group that murdered a huntress in training is going to be far more intense than a manhunt for an group committing largely unknown but vaguely nefarious deeds. But now they're playing for keeps — attacking the city, no longer holding back, going for the kill.

The point of giving the audience more information than the characters have is to use Dramatic Irony to generate tension. That tension is wasted if nothing is done with it. RWBY doesn't do anything with it. It would have been much more effective if the audience was caught up in the surprise of Cinder's plans just as much as the protagonists were.

I doubt Cinder Solo'd Ozpin since she struggled with Phyrra -In fact from what we saw Ozpin was kicking Cinder's ass' and Cinder and Co purposefully avoid fighting people like Qrow, Glynda and such.
Cinder didn't so much struggle with Pyrrha as she didn't manage to crush Pyrrha instantly. The outcome of the fight was never really in doubt, and Cinder never really took any hits until Ruby showed up to Deus ex Machina in her face. As far as Ozpin kicking Cinder's ass, we see enough to know that Ozpin wasn't going to get one-shotted and that's about it. And as far as Cinder & co deliberately avoiding the protagonists' heavy hitters, that was true before Cinder killed Fall and got the rest of her power, but once that's done she certainly doesn't hesitate to fight Ozpin.

Which is because the ambush was planned beforehand, and even then it wasn't an easy win for them.
The claim was that we only see Cinder & Co win all their fights because they only fight against students. The fight against the Fall Maiden is shows that this claim is incorrect. The claim is false. That's my only point, and quibbling about why or how that was the case doesn't change the fact that it was the case.

Except Emerald is neither [one of the strongest fighters in the world or one of the strongest fighters her age] and when her hand is shown she will lose that advantage. Despite the insistence otherwise, Emerald's Semblance isn't a game breaker. If she relies on it in a one-on-one fight the moment opponent catches on she is screwed. We see a glimpse of in the the fight against Amber.
She's at the very least able to successfully compete in the Vital Tournament, which includes the strongest fighters her age. And that's when she's somewhat handicapped by being unable to use her semblance in a way that won't blow her cover. No, I'm not saying that her semblance is an instant "I win" button, but it's a very powerful advantage, and it contributes enormously to both her ability as a fighter and — more importantly to the original point — to Cinder's plans going off without the heroes being able to do a damn thing about them.

Who did Adam have there other than his lieutenant that was capable of fighting back? What would he gain if he did? If fighting back seemed like a viable option I have no doubt he would choose to do so, but at that point it was a no-win scenario regardless of the power Cinder possessed.
Adam is the leader of an anti-human revolution and flat out told Cinder that he wouldn't work with humans even if doing so would be to his — and his revolution's — advantage. He just straight-up hates humans. Given that, I don't see him agreeing to work with Cinder unless he had literally no other choice. "Fight her, beat her, and send her packing" (or just straight up murder her) is another choice. Why wouldn't he have done that if he was capable of it? The fact that he doesn't do it suggests that he wasn't capable of it, and knows it. And Adam is certainly among top-tier fighters along with Crow and Ozpin, at the very least. So if he wasn't willing to take on a half-powered Cinder...

It's kinda cute he thinks the kingdom of Vale fell.
It's kind of cute that you're being a condescending jackass. Yes, the kingdom still exists, but the main city certainly fell, and I didn't know what else to call it. Ruby's dad mentions that the frozen dragon is still attracting grimm, which means Beacon is lost. I find it hard to believe that people would be living in the city with random grimm just wandering through town on the way to Beacon, and if the defenders were able to stop the grimm at the city's borders, then the fact that the dragon was attracting grimm wouldn't matter in terms of clearing out Beacon (since the grimm there wouldn't be getting constant reinforcements). I just double-checked and Ruby's dad tells her that things in Vale are "under control" and doesn't go into specifics, but that's also right after he tells her that Yang is "going to be alright", so he's clearly sugarcoating things to keep her from worrying. "Under control" could very well mean "fully evacuated and abandoned" as far as we know.

From what little we saw of Ozpin's battle, Cinder - at full Fall Maiden power - is no match.
If that's the case, then why would Ozpin — who is presumably familiar with how powerful the Fall Maiden is — yell at Pyrrha to go get all of the other best fighters in Vale to help him? The fact that Cinder didn't instantly curbstomp him is a good argument for Ozpin being extremely powerful, but there's little to suggest that he could actually take her in a one-on-one fight.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#31890: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:38:21 PM

So, good to see someone who can pull a argument about the tone shiff, so let star

" have no objection to going Darker and Edgier if that's your thing, but doing such a massive change in tone in such a short amount of time is seriously jarring. "

Its true but only because Breach(season 2 final) fail in make a proper transicion, there was hints here and there but it take this one to make it, I grand you is hell of tone shiff but it was the plan for the start, if you see the fandom in season 2 the complain was the oposite actually

"they know about the Maidens in the first place. You know, the secret that the Huntsmen's inner circle have been keeping for hundreds, if not thousands of years? "

Considering her boss is a human aboimination who is as older as Ozpin....yeah, not surprise here

"the villains had a plan, which they executed without the good guys being aware of it most of the time "

The issue here is that in this volume the hero and villian never interact until all shit goes down, usually there is a mystery or a chararter guessing what would happen but here that never present itset, Cinder sneak,nobody saw her and....that it.

"we already know what the villains are up to and already know that the villains have a huge head start on the heroes, "

No, we BARELY know that, there is a low out into the point is annoying because he can just especulate.

"What if Yang had blocked or dodged Mercury's "attack" instead of countering it?"

But it woudnt, Yang have worst temper of the four and is clear she would atack back, that was the plan

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#31891: Apr 12th 2016 at 4:58:55 PM

I can think of a very obvious counter to Emerald's powers: Being Blind. Illusions only work on those who can see them sweetheart.

That might work for Neo, but Emmy's illusions have been auditory as well.

Wrong target. Judging from what we've seen to date about Emerald, the key is to blind Emerald. Every time, she's in a position where she can watch the person she's targeting - and she's admitted she has to focus, too (it's almost too much for her to deal with two people at once).

Emerald's the weak link of her own power (which is as it should be) - distract her, or remove her ability to watch her target, and I think the attack will break.

edited 12th Apr '16 4:59:09 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#31892: Apr 12th 2016 at 5:02:46 PM

Or you know, just have some ability that can either see through illusions, shatter the illusions, or just learn how to sense an individual's Aura or something, like ki sensing.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31893: Apr 12th 2016 at 5:04:41 PM

So have any more manga chapters been released

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#31894: Apr 12th 2016 at 5:05:54 PM

Yes, the kingdom still exists, but the main city certainly fell, and I didn't know what else to call it.

No, it didn't. The school was the only thing that fell. Everyone from the school was evacuated back to the city, which is currently doing okay. The school is currently unsalvageable because the Grimm Dragon is still attracting Grimm to it, despite being 'frozen'. That seems to be a plot device for now to ensure the CCT (the school's tower) isn't rebuilt too quickly. Glynda's a bit of a problem when it comes to making sure broken masonry stays broken. At least they showed her exhausted, which in my book is a good thing because it puts a limit on just how much she can do at any one time.

If that's the case, then why would Ozpin — who is presumably familiar with how powerful the Fall Maiden is — yell at Pyrrha to go get all of the other best fighters in Vale to help him? The fact that Cinder didn't instantly curbstomp him is a good argument for Ozpin being extremely powerful, but there's little to suggest that he could actually take her in a one-on-one fight.

The fight itself suggests that he could take her in a one-on-one fight, because that's what he was doing.

He gave Pyrrha a job to do which got her out of the building and away from the danger she wasn't suited to confronting (telling her to get help gets her away from the area). Besides which, the others would be needed to secure the tower - Cinder wasn't the only threat there. Focussing attention on the tower takes the attention off Ozpin, deliberately so.

On top of that, as I said in previous posts, the issue is whether Ozpin was setting something up or whether Salem set something up and intervened because one of the two happened, if not both at the same time (which would require him to recall the three teachers because he would know what he's planning - or have figured out something - which he did seem to think about, because as soon as Cinder mentioned "she", Ozpin's entire demeanour changed, so he clearly realised something at that moment; I think he knew from the start there was no way to get the teachers back to the tower in time, it was a ploy to ensure Jaune and Pyrrha were away from the vault - Pyrrha seemed to realise that, but not until they got outside).

Something intervened at the point where Cinder's powers were hitting Ozpin's shield (the final scene, where he's very easily bulldozing through her fire at speed), which is why the scene turned white - it wasn't just a cross-fade, it was a cross-fade of a similar nature to the one that happened when Ruby's silver eyes power activated. That doesn't mean there was a silver eye power activating - but some kind of white power did.

At the very best, Cinder was just a distraction for Salem to grab Ozpin, but watching that fight several times has left me convinced that Cinder herself wasn't even close to being a match for him.

edited 12th Apr '16 5:22:25 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31895: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:06:46 PM

I really got nothing much to say to these arguments. Just that we knew in advance and were expecting the change in tone, and watching it week-to-week was a very difference experience than what I imagine binging it blind must be. Well, gotta thank you for the change in pace at least, Jovian.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31896: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:09:18 PM

[up][up]It's reasonable to assume that part of the city fell as well

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#31897: Apr 12th 2016 at 6:41:35 PM

How close the school is from the city? sometime it look far away, other it look it is int he mddile of it, that could explain how bad Vale actually is

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
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FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31899: Apr 12th 2016 at 7:37:12 PM

The Map minus the episode

Beacon is off by itself with the river and cliff cutting it off from Vale proper

Also you can only reach it by Airship... or Boat. The rest of beacon is surrounded by forever fall forest.

The City did not fall... Beacon is untakable due to the spawnpoint and the constantly drawn numbers

edited 12th Apr '16 7:41:22 PM by FrozenWolf2

Praise be to the absolute Queen

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