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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#31851: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:44:40 PM

Would'nt surprise me if past the uncharted parts of remnant, there will be an arc where our heroes journey past those parts into parts unknown, like the Gourmet World saga of Toriko and there are Grimm there that could possibly one shot the likes of Ozpin and Salem without even blinking.

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DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31852: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:44:48 PM

I hope the final battle takes place on the moon

edited 12th Apr '16 12:45:57 PM by DarthSion

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#31853: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:46:51 PM

Or at least in space.

edited 12th Apr '16 12:47:04 PM by Demongodofchaos2

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31854: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:46:57 PM

You'll need a series of epic training montages to get: Stronger, Faster, Overall BETTER!!

Then you'll need a few episodes to focus on mastering these "new" powers.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#31855: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:47:28 PM

I wonder how they're going to make the other characters stronger though.

Semblances don't get upgrades, I think. And I don't think new weapons are going to cut it.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#31856: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:48:06 PM

Probably prepared Grimm meat could be Power-Up Food, maybe.

Toriko, my favorite Shonen manga to date, is on my brain a lot. tongue

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31857: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:48:23 PM

The Villains are Always better...better than rookie combat thrillest children?
No, that's not my complaint. That's been present since the beginning of the series, and is one of the few things keeping the protagonists from being Boring Invincible Heroes. My complaint is basically two things: 1) the antagonists are better than everyone, at everything, such that it kills any dramatic tension, and 2) the consequences for being defeated by the villains went from "the villains escape yet again to continue their plans" to "characters die and kingdoms fall" in the space of just a few episodes.

I can expand on the first point, if you'd like. Not only are the villains better combatants than the protagonists, they're also better combatants than the best fighters we're aware of. They were able to take down the Fall maiden (who is basically a demigoddess) in a straight fight. Cinder soloed Ozpin after getting the rest of Fall's power. We haven't seen anyone beat any of them, ever. (Minor exceptions: entirety of Team RWBY vs Roman, who isn't really part of Cinder's inner circle, and Crow forces them to retreat after half-draining Fall, which didn't save Fall or significantly affect Cinder's plans.) They were able to hack the Vital Festival's randomization routine to ensure the fights they wanted. They were able to pull off a Do Not Adjust Your Set. They're able to hack military hardware and reprogram them remotely to turn them against the kingdom (including the piloted mecha, somehow). They're able to infiltrate basically anywhere they want at all, do whatever they want there, and get away scott free.

Oh, and the "but the protagonists are just kids!" excuse doesn't hold much water when the antagonists aren't significantly older than them, either. Cinder obviously had something special going on, but Emerald was a petty thief and Mercury was trained by his assassin father. Expecting prodigies from one of the premier combat training academies on the planet to be able to keep up with them isn't entirely unreasonable the way it would to, say, except them to be able to defeat someone who's both unusually talented and has the benefit of years of experience (like Crow or Ozpin, for example).

This is my only real problem with this complaint.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that that's the only thing I said that you agree with, or the only thing I said that you disagree with?

Sometimes you have to hit that message that...suddenly everything can go right down the pooper bowl.
Sure — and like I said, that can be done effectively. I don't think that RWBY did so, and I explained why I feel that way.

Three characters are dead. Why does everyone forget Roman?
Honestly, because I was still thinking of things in terms of RWBY's earlier tone and sort of expected him to come back. I feel like we've seen someone cut their way out of a grimm from the inside at least once, though admittedly I could be misremembering. And either way, if they keep up the new tone they've established, then he's probably for-reals dead, yeah.

It took almost the same amount of episodes for Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V to establish itself as the darkest series in the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise, and in some aspects darker then the original Yu-Gi-Oh! manga.
I'm not familiar with the Yu Gi Oh franchise at all, so I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly, but a brand new show that takes a half dozen episodes to solidly establish a dark tone is fine. My problem with what RWBY did is that it already had a solidly established tone before it did a 180 with no warning two and a half seasons in.

The thing about the opening is actually sort of funny. I thought season two's OP was silly because it was so much darker than the actual content of the show. I thought season three's was the same thing... until suddenly it wasn't.

The plot of RWBY was always intended to get dark, but [...]
That doesn't make criticism of the transition any less legitimate. Whatever they intended, they delivered two and a half seasons of fairly light and fluffy action-comedy fare before making a ham-handed shift to Darker and Edgier in a very short period of time. If they'd established it darker earlier, then I probably would've passed on the series entirely, as that's not really my thing. If they'd handled the transition better, then I wouldn't be complaining about it. Saying "well, what they originally wanted was..." makes for interesting behind-the-scenes trivia, and explains why things ended up how they did, but it doesn't excuse the fact that what we actually got wasn't particularly well executed.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31858: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:48:40 PM

Mix of training and magic

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31859: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:48:54 PM

...and Yellow Hair getting a robotic arm after getting over her Heroic BSoD.

[up][up]Besides those 2 instances of circumstance, they haven't fought anyone but the children.

edited 12th Apr '16 12:51:49 PM by randomness4

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DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31860: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:50:44 PM

And learning the dark arts from her mom

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
MalcolmBelmontS Since: May, 2015
#31861: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:53:05 PM

I have a feeling they will be a big time skip because right now Team RWBY aren't going to do shit against Cinder. My guess it will be either at the end of Volume 4 or 5.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#31862: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:53:52 PM

[up] Monty did say at some point we would be following the kid characters as adults later on.

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DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31863: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:56:39 PM

Well I'm pretty sure 6/7 of the cast are legally adults

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31864: Apr 12th 2016 at 12:59:16 PM

16?

Maybe somewhere.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31865: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:10:58 PM

Besides those 2 instances of circumstance, they haven't fought anyone but the children.
The three of them beat Fall in a straight-up fight even before they had access to any supernatural Maiden shenanigans. Mercury beat his dad (an assassin infamous enough that Cinder was seeking him out to recruit him) by himself. Emerald has infallible-so-far-as-we've-seen illusion powers, which she is capable of using in combat (though fooling more than one person at a time is apparently strenuous). Half-Fall'd Cinder was also able to intimidate Adam (who effortlessly defeated both Blake and Yang, and who had Chainsword Guy, who solo'd Weiss, at his back) into working with them instead of fighting against them. There's also the umbrella girl with different colored eyes and hair, who appears to be some sort of shapeshifter or something, whose deal we don't really know yet. And of course, Full-Fall'd Cinder solo'd Ozpin.

I don't really think you can legitimately suggest that they're only powerful in comparison to the students. It's possible that someone like Ozpin or Crow would be able to handle Emerald or Mercury by themselves. But those two (along with Ironwood and Winternote ) are essentially the strongest people in the world. Against a rank-and-file Huntsman like Overly Caffeinated Professor Doctor and Distinguished English Gentleman (I forget their actual names, sorry) I'd bet on the antagonists over them.

Oh! In my big list of ways that the antagonists are Better Than Everyone, I forgot to mention the fact that they know about the Maidens in the first place. You know, the secret that the Huntsmen's inner circle have been keeping for hundreds, if not thousands of years?

edited 12th Apr '16 1:15:35 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#31866: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:16:38 PM

[up][up] Ruby's 15 and all of the other first years are 17.

Also, RWBY hasn't gotten anywhere near grimdark. This is just a classic example of You Can't Thwart Stage One. You've had your time establishing the world and the heroes and now one of the major bosses shows up and destroys your home town. These are really basic storytelling tropes, especially in the world of video games (and RWBY is rather game-y aside from being very anime). My major problem with RWBY is that it took too long to get this point. We just finished the Prologue when we should at least be halfway through Chapter 1.

edited 12th Apr '16 1:17:35 PM by Zelenal

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31867: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:26:39 PM

I was wondering if anyone would try the "it's not actually grimdark" argument. Honestly, you can play word games with what does or does not constitute the exact definition of "grimdark" all day long if you want. The point is that RWBY got hit with Cerebus Syndrome hard, and the transition was both late in coming and poorly executed.

edited 12th Apr '16 1:27:08 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31869: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:30:01 PM

Hey there Jovian. Glad you enjoyed the show, so to speak. If it helps, we had word of God at least that the darker tone was the idea from the beginning, although people were still blindsided.

Personally, I think this season was the Darkest Hour. Not that it'll be all sunshine and rainbows from here on out, but I do not believe that the villains will keep on having nothing but successes. I think the reason it look so overwhelming was because, from an in-story standpoint, it was a deliberate Villains Act, Heroes React deal. That is, the villains had a plan, which they executed without the good guys being aware of it most of the time — they didn't win almost all their engagements because they were just that awesome, but because they had the preparation, footing and foresight to have the fights on their terms. They sent a trained assassin to fight a rookie Huntress. They set the higher-up good guys up against each other. They had backup, firepower and unknown abilities on their side, and they played it in full. From a Watsonian perspective, it's no wonder they won.

But, like I said before, I believe the momentum is now mostly over. If your beef is from a Doylist perspective there's not I can say, and I can't speak to how the series' tone shift looks if you view it in one sitting with no outside info, but at least for (most of) us, it was well-paced and well-executed. Here's hoping stuff gets better.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#31870: Apr 12th 2016 at 1:41:11 PM

'But those two (along with Ironwood and Winternote ) are essentially the strongest people in the world'

Strongest introduced so far(which can easily change given that we finally getting in look at the outside world now).We actually haven't seen many actual hunters in combat.(Aslo your forgetting Goodwitch).

edited 12th Apr '16 1:48:19 PM by DeanCole

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31871: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:21:58 PM

I meant I disagree. Cinder and co. beating Amber wasn't a simple of being better, it was because they had a plan going in.
The point I was responding to is that Cinder & Co. only seem overpowered because we've only seen them fight students. I was pointing out that this isn't the case. We see the three of them fight the Fall Maiden and win, without having any obvious supernatural assistance besides the beetle thing that Cinder uses to steal Fall's power.

In regards to their combat abilities, of the three Emerald was never really presented as a strong fighter nor is she really treated as such while Mercury and Cinder had established what they could do.
I agree that Emerald is probably the weakest of the three in combat, but that merely brings her down to "one of the best fighters her age in the world" instead of "one of the best fighters in the world" — and her illusions make her nigh-unbeatable against a single opponent (until and unless some as-yet-unmentioned counter is introduced). And more to the point, her being a (relatively) weak fighter hasn't stopped the villains from doing anything they want, which is really the core of the complaint.

Cinder intimidated Adam after blindsiding and torching his camp putting him in a position where even if he wanted to oppose her it wouldn't matter
Howso? Sure, they busted up his camp, but that was hardly the extent of the total force he had at his disposal. He'd made it clear that he wouldn't work with a human for no other reason than because they were human — I can't think of a legitimate reason he would change his mind on that point beyond not thinking that he could defeat them. Can't run your Glorious Revolution if you're dead, after all.

Personally, I think this season was the Darkest Hour.
Christ, I hope so. I still think it was done badly even if that's what they were going for, but if they don't lighten up at least a little in season four, I'm going to end up dropping the series. A dark, gritty look at what happens when you pit children against a world full of monsters and villains that want nothing more than to grind them into the dirt may have the makings of a good series, but it's not what I want to watch and not what I like RWBY. If RWBY turns into that, then I'm out.

That is, the villains had a plan, which they executed without the good guys being aware of it most of the time
That could have worked, if the story had been plotted around the idea of mysterious villains operating in the shadows, with the heroes and the audience being aware of their existence and little else. Unfortunately, we see just as much of the villains in RWBY as we see of the heroes. We know who they are and know in at least vague terms what they're up to. The fall of Beacon could have been a great Wham Episode, if the audience only learned about the villains then. It could have been "Oh, Crap!, the villains really have a head start against the heroes, I wonder how they're going to come back from that". Instead, we already know what the villains are up to and already know that the villains have a huge head start on the heroes, and the fact that the heroes aren't allowed to do anything about it is frustrating rather than shocking.

The fact that the tone shift comes at the same time just compounds the issue. If everything had happened the same, only without the personal consequences to the characters (as had been the rule in the series up to that point), then I would have been mildly annoyed at season three for the overwhelmingly powerful villains and looking forward to seeing the protagonists fight back in season four. As it is, like I said earlier, if RWBY keeps heading in this direction, I'm just not going to keep watching.

I can't speak to how the series' tone shift looks if you view it in one sitting with no outside info, but at least for (most of) us, it was well-paced and well-executed.
Basically, it feels like the writers changed the rules of the series for cheap drama. The first two seasons establish Nobody Can Die pretty firmly. Even when the grimm break in from Mountain Glenn, the end result is a bunch of property damage and presumably some off-screen injuries among civilians. The fact that letting the grimm in among civilians would almost certainly kill somebody is never brought up. No death toll is ever mentioned. Team RWBY never angsts over the fact that they failed to stop the train and thus failed to save innocent people. The grimm are contained, the city is saved, and therefore Everything Turned Out Alright.

Oh wait, now Penny's dead, Pyrrha's dead, Yang lost an arm (and with it her combat ability and The Team Spirit), Ozpin is missing-presumed-dead, and you thought this was a fun, lighthearted series? Fuck you, we're dark and edgy now.

edited 12th Apr '16 2:28:54 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#31872: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:31:15 PM

Fuck you, we're dark and edgy now.

Welcome to the team!

Personally, i can agree on certain aspects of your arguments (Like Emerald's bullshit powers and Cinder's almost flawless planning). However, i did enjoyed a few fights the villains were in (Personal Favourite would be Mercury)

That said, remember that they didn't fight the big guys one-on-one, with the exception of Ozpin. Which brings up the glaring problem that we don't know what the fuck happened in his fight with Cinder. Was he defeated? Did he bail out? Was he captured? Fuck you, wait for another 10 volumes. If they bothered to explain what happened with Ozpin, i wouldn't be that underwhelmed about Pyrrha's death

Uni cat
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#31873: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:32:01 PM

and her illusions make her nigh-unbeatable against a single opponent (until and unless some as-yet-unmentioned counter is introduced)
I can think of a very obvious counter to Emerald's powers: Being Blind.

Illusions only work on those who can see them sweetheart.

Penny's dead
Highly unlikely to stay that way because remember: SHE'S A FRIGGING GYNOID. Grievous dismemberment isn't too much of a problem for androids.

edited 12th Apr '16 2:33:49 PM by BlackSunNocturne

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#31874: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:32:33 PM

'That could have worked, if the story had been plotted around the idea of mysterious villains operating in the shadows, with the heroes and the audience being aware of their existence and little else. Unfortunately, we see just as much of the villains in RWBY as we see of the heroes.'

No we haven't.V1 focuses almost entirely on the hero's.V2 we only get a small showing of the plan in the second half of the volume.V3 was the most we got on the villans and that was after the plans was in its final stage.

edited 12th Apr '16 2:33:34 PM by DeanCole

FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31875: Apr 12th 2016 at 2:35:53 PM

The way I see it Jovian

Whats more effective

The bomb going off suddenly without warning -You and the characters find out at the same time-

You knows there is a bomb that is going to go off infact you know exactly where the bomb is but the characters don't.

Season 2 was all about the villains setting up for something... The Train bomb was a part of that plan but Roman decided to go through with it before hand since he'd been discovered. Season 3 is the pay off for that set up. and for once its not the older hereos already had the perfect counter set up and all that work goes down the drain.

Yes the villains are by definition at the moment better then our main heroes

I doubt Cinder Solo'd Ozpin since she struggled with Phyrra -In fact from what we saw Ozpin was kicking Cinder's ass' and Cinder and Co purposefully avoid fighting people like Qrow, Glynda and such.

Since as Amber showed a Maiden is tough but they aren't wanked out godmode to the point you need another maiden to counter one.

Now I agree that Maybe they should have given them more minor victories to slightly offset the whole Villians wins thing.. IE Ruby should have defeated Roman before he gets eaten... not seemingly needed Roman to get eaten. Cause it makes all of Ruby's declarations come off as empty... since ya know... the whole failed to save two people in the same day.

Emerald has a very obvious weakness... AOE the hell out of your surroundings

edited 12th Apr '16 2:41:26 PM by FrozenWolf2

Praise be to the absolute Queen

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