@Captain Capsase. I don't know if there was a misunderstanding. I was talking about fairy tales where, in the fairy tale, the character starts off as a protagonist and becomes a villain by the end of it. In some tales this happens to Cinderella - she goes too far with her revenge on her wicked step-mother and step-sisters and ends up in full villain territory. No ambiguity, no anti-villain status - she's a full-blown villain by the end.
I was talking about the possibility of the RWBY villains being based on characters who, in their fairytales, have this protagonist-to-antagonist switch, not necessarily that the RWBY villains themselves had the switch. After all, the JNPR characters are based on legends that spent time masquerading as the opposite sex, but the JNPR characters themselves have never masqueraded as the opposite sex (that we know of, anyway).
That said, Cinder's comment that she wanted to be strong, powerful and feared does suggest that knows what it's like to be weak, powerless and terrified. I also expect Salem to have been someone who can blame her situation on Ozpin at some point in her past (his pilot episode comments suggest she was a protagonist originally but left that behind long ago, and it's clear she hates Ozpin for the evil of giving hope to people about situations she believes are hopeless). We also know that, according to Blake, Adam started off okay and gradually turned into the monster he now is (which is the opposite of the Beast, who starts off a monster and gradually becomes kinder).
I do not expect these characters to be anti-villains. They're full-blown villains. Just because they may not have started as evil people, doesn't change their evil now. The only villain who looks like they might, potentially, have some kind of doubt or hesitation is Emerald, and that's going to have to be developed before we can ever say she is capable of moving from villain-hood into anti-villain territory.
edited 20th Feb '16 11:37:19 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I dislike those things, too, which is one of several reasons why I dislike Wicked (and Wide Sargasso Sea, too, for that matter).
edited 20th Feb '16 11:39:07 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Basically, a Perspective Flip of the Wizard of Oz. The Wicked Witch of the West wasn't evil, just misunderstood and everyone else was an asshole.
Yes, one of those things.
edited 20th Feb '16 11:43:34 AM by BlackSunNocturne
![]()
While I dislike the whitewashing (and the Ron the Death Eater stuff) that tends to happen in such works, it's extraordinarily rare for people to not believe themselves to be in the right in real life, no matter how reprehensible their actions may be.
On the flipside, there is very rarely, if ever a "good guy" when talking about conflicts on a large scale. All parties involved tend to be acting in ruthless, rational self-interest, despite generally claiming to be fighting for a just cause.
edited 20th Feb '16 12:00:49 PM by CaptainCapsase
It's fine if they have reasons or things that made them to be such bastards. That's fine. Characters who just evil for the sake of being evil are not all that great.
BUT that doesn't excuse them. So Cinder turns out to have had horror in her life and been scrwed over by Ozpin or something and that's why she's the way she is. Ok fine. But that doesn't mean "Well she's just misunderstood and you should let her do whatever she wants." She still murdered Pyrha and the Fall Maiden in cold blood set up the fall of Beacon and Penny's destruction and Yang's disgrace and ruined everyone's happy life, and she deserves a scythe blade to the throat for it.
It's like Agents of Shield had a villain who clearly has a reason why he's the rat bastard sociopath he is, and if a few things had gone differently in his life he'd be a stand up hero, but it didn't, and he choose to embrace villainy while saying "I have reasons for being evil dudes my past sucked so it's not my fault." and everyone is very clear that while his past sucked he still let it control him and shape his future and therefore he deserved the eventual come uppance he got.
Ok, I think preople here have a little problem understanding the difrence between understanding a villian and excusing their action, I havee seen this false dicthonomy: ether the villian is a card carring one or misunderstood woobie.
We need to see how cinder came to be what it is now, same with Adam and the other, it dosen mean they are good guys or nothing of the sort, just the came from somewhere aside "Let be a dick tonight"
That is what I want to see many layer of Adam beyond "douchebag" and how he become what it is, that make for better writing
![]()
And even them it take one episode to show him WHERE the problem lies and how, he isn bad because he want it but his fatal flaw make him a villian
Cinder may have a deeper motivation than "I want to be feared" because we don't know the context of why did she said that. Maybe she had such an awful upbringing so that could be a reason why she wants to be feared.
That's still doesn't excuse her for her actions. You destroyed a kingdom and Killed 2 helpless women in coldblood.
Also, remind me, what did Pyrrha accomplished by fighting Cinder? The only good thing she got out was awakening Ruby's hidden power, but that was after she was killed.
edited 20th Feb '16 12:37:49 PM by fasoman1996
Uni catCinder never had a fairy godmother, and suffered under the cruelty of her stepmother and stepsisters. She was instructed to do everything from cleaning, to cooking and hunting. Until she was told to sort the lentils and rice one too many times... Then she grabbed a bow, and killed her stepfamily. Afterwards, she was recruited by Salem.
or...
Salem is Cinder's fairy godmother.
She awoke Ruby's power, which stopped the Dragon and ended Cinder's plot for the moment leaving Vale salvagable eventually.
Personally though she accomplished nothing herself, but she felt that since she was so powerful and awesome she had to try to do something, which is probably the point. Or maybe she thought she could get a lucky shot and get the power that was supposed to be hers. She actually was holding her own until that Dragon got involved, so maybe she might have lucked out.
Would things have been better in the end if she just left with Jaune and Ruby and Vale fell, but Pyrha lived? Dunno.
Although I'm surprised thinking about it now, that Penny getting shredded didn't turn silver mode on, but Pyrha did, because frankly she and Ruby didn't interact much while she did with Penny (beyond metawise Penny's probable return).
Well offscreen land might explain why Ruby was so distraught when she died. I mean Pyrrha hadn't had much interaction with anyone besides Jaune. That's a reason why i feel a little cheaped with her death.
Also, i was bored so i added this:
- Memetic Loser: Blake is considered to be a very subpar fighter compared to the rest of her team and the fandom usually likes to poke fun of how "useless" she is as a main character even though she is a very capable fighter. Fans also tend to blame her for things she doesn't even have anything to do.
What do you think? ![]()
![]()
I just realized, I now have a Berserk Button. I must ignore it, least I start raging.
I'm really hoping Blake develops her semblance to allow her shadow clones to do things. Or be able to produce multiple. Or both.
edited 20th Feb '16 1:47:50 PM by WillDeRegio

First time I've heard "Blake needs to run away more".
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.