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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#78226: Mar 26th 2023 at 9:25:07 PM

Personally, I really, really hope there isn't a twist here that makes things better. To leave the Ever After, a sacrifice is required.


There probably will be, because RWBY just isn't that kind of show.

You know, volume 3 was when I really got into this show, and the way it just abruptly jumped from a very lighthearted seeming premise to maiming and killing characters off actually brought to mind Puella Magi Madoka Magica for a fair number of the FNDM, and with all the foreshadowing, I was frankly hyped to see the downward spiral as the heroes took loss after loss, coming out more physically and psychologically broken with each passing episode. The bloated cast of characters suddenly made a lot of sense if it was going to be (almost) Anyone Can Die from here on out. Alas.

The heroes did in fact take loss after loss, but the general tone of the show and the lack of the trademark mental deterioration of the characters caught in the Trauma Conga Line (until now with Ruby, and let's be real, she'll be fine) feel at odds with the theoretical bleakness of their situation.

A little late to the discussion of pairings. Captain Capsase, the problem with Rose Garden is called OZPIN.

Rose Garden is Ruby x Oscar. Ozpin's presence just puts a tragic, ticking clock on that.

And if he's still around when the final curtain falls, I'll eat my hat. (I don't have a hat). I actually consider it somewhat more likely that Salem is still around, either in some sort of And I Must Scream situation *, or from some kind of Redemption Earns Life where she takes up Ozma's burden so he can rest.


* You know, it occurs to me that, based on everything we know "Create an cube of indestructible Phlebotinum around Salem" should be a perfectly valid request for Ambrosius, and effectively impossible to defend against.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:05:15 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#78227: Mar 26th 2023 at 9:36:37 PM

I mean... I rewatched Volum 8 recently.

Everyone is MISERABLE in that arc. For like, almost the entire thing.

Kaze ni Nare!
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#78228: Mar 26th 2023 at 9:37:13 PM

Too many people equate darkness with maturity. It's what those idiots in the Snydercult do, and it's what Ironwood stans do (yes they did have plenty of time to evacuate; we don't know exactly how long the fight was and before he stopped it things were proceeding smoothly).

Thing is that's FAR more childish than most light hearted kid shows. Shazam was unashamedly goofy and kid friendly, and yet it dealt with themes like abandonment and growing up far better than most of the dreary slogs that artistic types think are mature. Same with Gary Groth and his dismissal of superhero comics in favor of the misogynistic and racist tripe that Robert Crumb vomits out.

There doesn't NEED to be an overload darkness and grimness and sadness to be mature; they have their place but if you overdo it you're more childish than the most kiddie entertainment.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 26th 2023 at 9:42:17 AM

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#78229: Mar 26th 2023 at 9:40:46 PM

Could they come out worse? Absolutely.

But in terms of themes and overall story structure, this seems to be the darkest hour stage where our heroes are at their lowest point.

Coming back worse seems to be counterproductive, when they literally got dropped into a world screaming face yourself and hey yes there's constant butterfly motifs and ideas of change.

They fell from a stagnant realm of Creation, to a place of literal rebirth, and their next stop is a nation of Destruction as a force of change.

That screams that this journey is about Ruby finally breaking down and letting go, and emerging from it with stronger. Not physically but mentally, since she hasn't yet answered the key question of who she is.

She's living in her mom's shadow, trying to fill Ozpin's shoes, trying to be the hero while basing so much on others.

Who is Ruby Rose?

That's the core of the volume.

Edited by harostar on Mar 26th 2023 at 12:43:58 PM

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#78230: Mar 26th 2023 at 9:44:44 PM

Again this ties in with people thinking dark = mature. Whatever one thinks about Geoff Johns he was correct when he said that a lot of people looked at watchmen and assumed that it's darkness was what made it great rather than the fact it dealt with mature themes in an intelligent way.

Shazam, as mentioned earlier, is VERY goofy and kiddy, and yet it handled themes like growing up and abandonment with far more maturity than most "dark" stories. Or why shows like MLP FIM are still more mature than say Assy Mc Gee.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#78231: Mar 26th 2023 at 10:16:23 PM

@LordYAM I'd argue RWBY's premise and genre very much lends itself to an extremely bleak story. In fact, on paper, it is pretty damn dark, literally every volume after 3 apart from 5 ends with either the heroes only acomplishment being travleing from point A to point B, or an umabiguious defeat on their parts. The basic formula of "Hopepunk" (also known as "Nobledark") is a bleak world that puts good, decent people through the absolute wringer, and chews up a lot of them, but ultimately turns out alright in the end. There's a huge catharsis in that which is made more powerful specifically by how much suffering and pain the characters and audience struggled through to get there.


It's always felt like RWBY wants/wanted to go for that kind of angle, but the writers just didn't have the heart to put their characters through that.


@G Ninja: I think the issue is that it's really too soft on the protagonists. There's no real sense that their necks are potentially on the chopping block, or that they're going to be broken in ways that they might not get better from, or that there'll be a brutal Kill Em All ending. IMO, the show's alleged working title of "Remnant" would've been a lot better.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:23:35 PM

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#78232: Mar 26th 2023 at 10:27:55 PM

A character going through hell is a difficult thing to do; the way Capn Capesce asks for it comes off more as believing that suffering is automatically good and makes people more "interesting" (which is the same kind of logic Rob Liefeld and other edge lord writers use). Thing is, sometimes it absolutely needs to happen for them to grow, and people will often oppose it simply because they LIKE a character and don't want them to suffer.

For instance, I absolutely think that Weiss should have had her illusions more forcibly shattered over the course of three volumes rather than get over it due to a single talking to, because having a single talking to resolve it is not only rather insincere, it can unwittingly convince viewers that racism isn't that big a deal and you just need to point it out to get people to stop. It's also why I think that Nicholas Schnee should have been either a.) a heartless robber baron like Jacques b.) A deeply flawed man who was willing to do unethical things even if he loved his family or c.) Jacques father.

Both of those would have allowed more rich character development AND been a more accurate representation of how racism really is, but people who like Weiss and identify with her have been VERY hostile to that idea because again they like the character and don't want them to suffer (even going so far as to argue that Weiss isn't REALLY that racist or that her equating what she endured with what the Faunus endured wasn't stupid and a sign of how privileged she was.)

People instinctively defend characters they like and don't want them to suffer (Peter Parker fans from the MCU have acted like Tony chewing him out in Homecoming was the worst most terrible thing and how dare he make Peter endure that....when if you look at the fact that Peter was reckless and endangered people he kinda deserved to get yelled at.) People also don't like characters having a particularly ugly flaw (as much as I think TLJ handled it poorly, I agree that Luke definitely had the potential for anger and aggression) and having them go through the wringer to face it also calls attention to the part of the character they don't really like to think about.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 26th 2023 at 10:34:35 AM

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#78233: Mar 26th 2023 at 10:36:19 PM

[up][up]Not saying there shouldn't be darkness; but having Ruby actually cross the line and be a killer in her despair is an example of overdoing it for the sake of grimderp. Many stories try to be bleak but ultimately come across as just over the top and childish in how edgy they are. Ruby is already going through the wringer, and she doesn't need to become a killer in order to get the "darkest hour" across. She can be brought to the edge and feel sad but still have a satisfying rebirth.

If you overdo it it's juts torture porn.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 26th 2023 at 10:37:18 AM

rinrinboss Since: Apr, 2011
#78234: Mar 26th 2023 at 10:37:47 PM

So I know time should move differently in the Ever After, but I don't know the pace is it faster or slower than Remnant? Also what do you think the corpses of people from Cinder's attack and Penny will get mentioned at any point? Did the ever after do something with those as the came into the world already dead.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#78235: Mar 26th 2023 at 10:46:09 PM

[up][up] Putting characters through hell isn’t about making characters interesting, it’s anoint creating (Doylist) stakes and tension. We all know that everything is going to be fine in the end with RWBY, just like every super hero movie where “oh no, the world is in danger.” Contrast that to RWBY’s contemporary, Attack on Titan where a Kill ‘Em all ending never felt out of the question.

The work of creators of that persuasion like GRRM or Yoshiyuki Tomino benefit tremendously in terms of from the fact that their works hold nothing and nobody as as sacred, and a side effect of that is that characters suffer a lot.

That’s not to say that dark stories are inherently better-they absolutely aren’t, but with RWBY there’s a lot that suggests it was intended as a (noble)dark work. I’m specifically thinking of the premise, the way 2/3 arcs end in The Bad Guy Wins (with the only victory being retroactively taken from them), and of course the really edgy song lyrics from early in the show’s run. The main thing it’s missing is Anyone Can Die and the irreverent treatment of its protagonists.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 26th 2023 at 2:18:08 PM

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#78236: Mar 26th 2023 at 11:19:19 PM

So my thought is that Ruby is currently undergoing what the rest of her team dealt with back in the Mistral arc.

She was the one charging forward, pushing down her pain and being the hero!

Meanwhile, we had Yang coping with her lost arm, Blake facing her family and Adam, and Weiss facing her dad and choosing her freedom.

Each of them have had their dark moment, been broken, and emerged from it.

Ruby never went through that development like the others. Because only now is she unable to keep pushing forward. She's given up her emblem, hesitated to take Crescent Rose back, and struggles with her identity.

Even Oscar and Oz have had their crisis.

Ren and Nora faced their issues last volume.

So now we have the leaders, broken as hell.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#78237: Mar 26th 2023 at 11:48:04 PM

Martin and Tomino have both been accused of overdoing the darkness for the sake of grimderp stupidity. In Zeta in particular many of the deaths were stupid and mean spirited (characters like Emma Sheen die because they grabbed the idiot ball). Victory Gundam was also extremely dark and is now considered one of Tomino's LESSER works. Heck, given that Tomino was in the throes of depression it was less "Artistic" and more "I'm venting my depression"

ZZ is more lighthearted. Things like the destruction of Dublin and Puru's heroic sacrifice still hit really hard. The balance between darkness and light made it feel more real ironically.

Irreverent treatment of the protagonists isn't always good; there needs to be balance, and you're leaning on "hurr durr darkness good". Ruby doesn't NEED to kill anyone; she can be brought to the edge of darkness and pull back. The story still works.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#78238: Mar 27th 2023 at 1:36:27 AM

" It's also why I think that Nicholas Schnee should have been either a.) a heartless robber baron like Jacques b.) A deeply flawed man who was willing to do unethical things even if he loved his family or c.) Jacques father.

Both of those would have allowed more rich character development AND been a more accurate representation of how racism really is"

I will said for me this sound like darkness for its own sake(granted, I wills said something, that isnt bad just as silliness for is own sake isnt ether as long people want that).

My issue with Weiss is that her storyline dosent inercept with Blake even when it should: is all about her loneliness as rich girl controled by abusive father with pasing notions of him being a back boss but that it, meanwhile Adam abuse tendecy are ramp up to the point whatever happen to him feel meanless because he is such a douche(and the show dogging his brand right until the very end).

That is what caps said about dodging darkness, for some reason the show doged the fact that Weiss wealth and lifestyle rest on people like his father doing horrible thing like Adam brand and what it means having a mark of ownership literarily stick into your face forever for daring to speak up, being a heiress is still important for Weiss(to the point Jacquess removing her from that is the breaking point) but that the company have done horrible thing is kinda brush on.

It also make the villians lesser since Adam and Jacques villany hinge more on what they do to RWBY that what they represent or do to others, so Adam is seen more as incel or abuiser and Jacques more as dominant father. Not surprising they become quite pathetic past a certein point which make them a waste of time and space.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#78239: Mar 27th 2023 at 9:48:28 AM

[up][up]

Ruby doesn't NEED to kill anyone; she can be brought to the edge of darkness and pull back. The story still works.

You aren’t wrong, the story still works, and I’ll still watch and enjoy it. My point is that RWBY suffers from a weird tonal dissonance with how it treats its characters versus how it treats the world.

As far as the specific point, there’s now a fairly justifiable reason for Ruby to kill Neo: to get back home to Remnant. From what they know now it sounds a lot like getting back to Remnant requires a sacrifice*. Using Neo for that is quite defensible (it’s a pretty classic Trolley problem), she’s a criminal and a murderer, but it’s a really cold blooded thing to do.

Considering Ruby’s mental state, I wouldn’t rule out her making that exact suggestion. If that happens, I don’t think the plot should just go “psych” and let her back out of that without consequences.

* Whether or not that’s actually true remains to be seen.

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#78240: Mar 27th 2023 at 3:46:00 PM

Ultimately, I don't think this series is one that is going to genuinely be as dark as people seem to be suggesting in this discussion.

I really don't see anything constructive coming out of "Ruby kills Neo" or "Ruby kills Jaune" or any of those dark scenarios being presented.

Because, again, what we know about this volume is that it's a character-focused volume as a transition between the downfall of Atlas and the next stage in Vacuo. And the central conflict has been Ruby finally breaking down, after 8 volumes of her pushing forward and actively not dealing with her burdens.

Notably, our protagonist and our antagonist are characters defined by wrapping themselves up in an identity based on someone they lost. Ruby has based her entire self on her mother, and held up this idealized version of Summer in her mind. She's tried to live up to that her entire life, but now we're seeing her conflict centered on not knowing who she is and struggling with her sense of self.

Likewise, from the novel, we know that Neo is a person that has struggled to find her own identity. From being Trivia and Neo, to reinventing herself as Neo, and basically adopting Roman's mannerisms, style of dress, and life/goals as her own. Just like Ruby, she is someone that has been AVOIDING dealing with her own issues and figuring out who she really is.

Ruby going down a dark path and doing something terrible kind of....feels like Darkness for Darkness sake, while missing the ACTUAL conflict. The conflict is that Ruby is a teenaged girl that has been shoved into this enormous role with so much pressure, without really allowing herself to figure out who she is. She keeps taking on roles, chasing ideals, and basing everything about herself on others.

What we've had is Ruby being questioned and stripped of the things she'd used to forge her current identity. No weapon, no emblem, and a loss of purpose all plaguing her. Looking at her, Ruby has taken pieces of her mother and Qrow to make the Ruby we know. She's a girl made of borrowed things, having all these roles shoved on to her without time to process it all. Everyone BUT Ruby has had to face figuring out who they really are, and what they want to become.

Like I said, this is reflected in Neo.

They are both girls that have a borrowed identity, clinging to grief and the ghost of a person they lost. That have avoided figuring themselves out, and now are in a realm that will force them to face that head-on.

Neo is also explicitly compared to a young Salem, as another "girl in a tower" similarly driven by grief and misplaced anger. Figuring out how to deal with Neo is going to be a stepping stone towards figuring out Salem, in the grand scheme of things.

(Bonus: Trivia is the goddess of CROSSROADS. You know, the thing that they keep facing.)

Edited by harostar on Mar 27th 2023 at 6:47:23 AM

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#78241: Mar 27th 2023 at 4:37:18 PM

I think the overall problem is that the show is trying to apply a Silly Rabbit, Cynicism Is for Losers! moral when all it's showing is that cynicism is seen as the solution.

Roman's ideology of how lying, cheating, stealing, and surviving is proven to be wrong? Ruby has practically gone through the events of Volumes 6-8 doing just that (stealing from Argus, lying to Ironwood, cheating with the Relics, surviving her certain death).

Salem is ultimately proven right that people can easily be divided because she barely needed to lift a finger with both Ozpin and Ironwood, since they easily caused distrust and division among their ranks within seconds of someone beginning to suspect them. Hell, the infamous cane nuke, for as bad of an Ass Pull as it was, proved that taking Salem out of the equation did little to actually patch things up and only showed that people will still try to kill each other even without an evil Grimm queen pulling the strings.

And yet, ironically, Ironwood's big game about nothing being gained without sacrifice is proven right with sacrificing Mantle and Atlas for Penny's life and then later Penny's life to save Winter and later the people from both cities. Also that whole "emotion makes you weak" thing and Winter choosing Weiss over the staff thingy.

The only character whose cynicism is for losers is Raven's Straw Darwinist mentality which doesn't hold water when the survival of the fittest includes a genocidal maniac and your only response to having that be deconstructed is to run away and disappear from the show forever while you set up the downfall of the entire world by having your daughter take the Relic out of the Vault for you.

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#78242: Mar 27th 2023 at 4:42:32 PM

Also STARRING SUSPICIOUSLY at the current crossover comics and the very distinct "Remnant folks visiting others worlds causes a ripple effect that disrupts the norms and laws of that world" going on.

I see what you are doing there, crwby.

(and yes, just to be clear. I am ignoring any/all repeat arguments about Ironwood was right because that horse is beyond dead and I stopped coming here partially because I got tired of the recycled beating of dead horses. So consider this my formal notice that I won't be engaging in those discussions, so please understand that I won't respond if tagged or mentioned.)

Edited by harostar on Mar 27th 2023 at 7:50:55 AM

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#78243: Mar 27th 2023 at 4:56:12 PM


This post was thumped by the Eldritch Flyswatter of Horror

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#78244: Mar 27th 2023 at 4:57:07 PM

You know they can make a post that isn’t about responding to you specifically, right?

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#78245: Mar 27th 2023 at 5:12:26 PM

Except that again thing's only got that bad in Atlas because Ironwood was a coward. If he hadn't shot down the bullheads they could have evacuated the people and done his plan; he refused because he wanted to be a big man. The sacrifices he was proposing weren't just cruel, they were utterly stupid and unnecessary to the point that the only people who honestly defend them are fascist wannabes.

Yes sacrifices do sometimes have to be made, but all too often people jump to them as the first last and only resort because it's convenient.

The only reason things got divided was because Ironwood was an overly paranoid asshole (and considering that he was willing to lie to HIS superiors and demanded obedience he wasn't entitled too, Ruby was entirely justified in withholding things from him.)

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#78246: Mar 27th 2023 at 5:17:21 PM

Sigh.

Okay, I've taken a few to calm down. That said, the passive aggressive comments are really not necessary or appreciated.

"Salem is right": I mean, yes, that is the major element of what makes her such a threat in the story. That she is intimately familiar with the flaws in human nature, and exactly how to exploit them for herself. An interesting note is how in her fairy tale, we have the elements of Oz wondering about how she kept leading people to their deaths with a story and whether she ever cared about the people she manipulated. And her split with Oz being centered on her not considering anyone but herself and Oz and their kids to be people. There's a similar element playing out in Ever After, with how we're told that Alyx didn't treat the locals like living beings. (And in general, our cast also slipping into treating the Ever After folks as characters in a story instead of people.)

"Roman is right": Only.....no, he really was not. Roman Holiday in particular establishes that Roman was in fact really actually very dumb, and only survived as long as he did through sheer luck. His cynical view of the world kept screwing him over, causing him to burn bridges or get in trouble with very dangerous people. Notably, his partnership with Neo was the one exception that actually saved him. One person that he didn't use, or lie to, or cheat. The one genuine relationship he had, where trust and compassion ended up greatly rewarding him. And his Motive Rant notably ends with him getting himself killed, as a result of his own actions.

Across the board, the characters have been consistently rewarded when they worked together, when they trusted, and when they took a risk. Because that's the central argument the series is built upon — the power of teamwork, and the strength that comes from taking the risk to trust and lean on each other.

Things started going absolutely sideways when their cooperation and teamwork collapsed, when people stopped trusting each other and leaning on each other for help. And ironically, Cinder's greatest victory comes from working with others as a team.

Sometimes the tone can be a bit wonky, but overall we know what the central argument/theme of the series is.

Which, again, we're seeing play out right now in the Ever After. Jaune occupying the role of the jaded, untrusting veteran that is unreliable because he makes a lot of assumptions and has a ton of baggage. And Ruby struggling, because she isn't talking to anyone and keeping things inside.

Edited by harostar on Mar 27th 2023 at 8:55:22 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#78247: Mar 27th 2023 at 5:26:07 PM

So anyway, I noticed Alyx had a little rabbit pendant on her, wonder if that means anything.

Also it's still a big question on how Alyx and Lewis fell into the Ever After, like they had to be doing something big to fall into another dimension since if it's just possible to randomly fall in we'd have heard of more humans going down there.

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#78248: Mar 27th 2023 at 5:26:23 PM

A Lso, on rewatch, one thing I do appreciate about Volume 8 is how chaotic the whole thing is from a plot stand point.

Like everyone's plans get fucked up and were constantly changing because of the actions of other characters. Like, almost everyone has agency in that volume. For whatever problems the vilume has, I respect the hell out of its ambition and what it was trying to do.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2023 at 12:27:16 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#78249: Mar 27th 2023 at 6:04:43 PM

That's another million dollar question, isn't it? Our cast got there because of messing with a Relic, while there's absolutely no indication yet of how Alyx and Lewis ended up there. Did they perhaps stumble upon one of the Relics in the past, not knowing what it was? (Since Oz doesn't seem to have gathered them until a more recent incarnation, meaning they were out there for centuries or eons for anyone to stumble upon.) Or are there other things out in the world that might allow someone to stumble through the boundaries of worlds?

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#78250: Mar 27th 2023 at 6:25:34 PM

Okay, I've taken a few to calm down. That said, the passive aggressive comments are really not necessary or appreciated.
Apologies if it sounded passive aggressive. But at the same time, I did want to bring up that it wasn't merely an Ironwood post this time around.

Edited by Psyga315 on Mar 27th 2023 at 6:25:43 AM


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