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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74976: Feb 19th 2022 at 10:46:01 AM

"Ozpin does have an endgoal, it's to protect the world"

That is not a endgoal, that is a objective, a sort of creed and is enterely defensive since he cant get rid of her not matter what while Salem does have and endgame, by that it is stalling, Ozma cant win ergo he will asure as much he can that she dosent.

Let remenber this is not a condition Ozma want to be in, he wants to move on and to some level he wants Salem to move as well(as Wyld said, the posibility the two still love each other bury under crush of hatred and bitterness is still there).

"Picture 2 people are playing a game, when Player 2 loses they can go ‘Lets play another game!’ which player 1 cant. But Player 1 just keeps winning and each time they win, they make the next game something that is harder for player 2. That is a more fitting allegory for Salem and Ozpins situation IMO."

The problem with that i a) the game dosent rest when it finish b) the other player also do their best to ruin the other as in this case, the killing of Silver eye warrior is a good show or creating new grimms as the hound or maybe even monstra, Salem isnt left behind from Ozma she just readapt as well, after all with a hacker, a thief, a thug and former huntress she manage to wreck Beacon and nearly destroy the tower which it would cripple all comunication.

Also finally, Salem is barely worry about the loses she takes and have learn to take defeat with grace and a shurg as we see in volume 3, she is indeed tired of this eternal battle with Ozma but she isnt about being defeated, the same cannot be said about Ozma who is clear wear of all the loses he have to endure since after all, Ozma is cosplaying a shady mastermind but just dosent have the heart, so is more player 2 saying "good, let try again" with Player one being tired but knowing very well he cant quit.

"I don't think Ruby underestimated her, If anything I think she is finally getting on the right track."

Kinda but not, she is right Salem can be defeat but she seriously understimated Salem threat, I mean the fact Salem manage her to crawl and cry with just a simple work kinda ilustrate way hw ruby is still unprepared to face Salem, she is getting there but not yet. The reason being even "defeating her" is still thinking in term of strenght, that they just have to overpower so she crawl back to the shadows.

"James problem was in large part that he assumed that it was already at that point, which is why he made all his ‘tough decisions’, Making rash decisions that have horrible consequences because his mindset was ‘Salem is so unstoppably strong, I have to do this thing to win’ and Ignoring simpler solutions out of assuming they won't work or that Salem is somehow planning them. When said simpler solutions, like Reaching out to Theo, would have foiled everything"

Except no? James problem is his lack of trust and is the point of volume 7 and 8, trusting implied risk and sometimes you cant just logically trust someone or not is a sort of act of faith(or to put it better, doing from heart) so he put faith in his military and machines(his plan is pretty good extension of that), with Leo prove a traitor it become even more dificult to trust, is not a sismple as "well is logically the must simple solution, isnt?".

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74977: Feb 19th 2022 at 1:37:17 PM

[up][up][up]Complete Monsters? No

Full of shit? Debatable with how consistent you see their actions

God of Light saw humanity as an experiment with strict rules against raising the dead but was worshipped despite only offering humanity advice when asked.

God of Darkness despite giving humanity magic was feared for his penchant of destruction with the Grimm

The brothers came to an agreement that they'd let humanity choose their paths with the gifts they gave them. When the humans used Darkness' gift against him the destruction God....acted accordingly

God of Darkness: My own gift to them... used against me.

While Darkness did bring Ozma back he thought Salem genuinely wanted to worship him instead of doing the old "ask both parents to get what you want trick". The crux of his character was jealously towards his brother, he then apologized to said brother when realizing this deception and corrected his mistake.

God of Light brought Ozma back from the afterlife and told him not too seek out Salem for his quest to redeem humanity. Because Light knew she was a lost cause at this point. Oz went against the advice sought Salem out, told her everything and got the despair he was warned would come.

Now all of humanity is at risk of being wiped out in Salem suicide plan. Because she finds wiping out humanity again an easier solution then just admitting she was wrong to get the curse lifted.

The series doesn't paint the Brothers as innocent or benevolent. If anything Light is portrayed as Dr. Manhattan. Not malicious but definitely not kind and unwilling to stop a tragedy about to happen because it's all an experiment to him.

Darkness is openly egotistical and cruel but has depth because he did give humans the magic that made them so powerful. As I said before hes like Truth from FMA. Only difference Darkness wanted followers instead of being content to be an unknown all powerful being.

But their assessment that Salem doesn't value the lives of anyone but herself holds an extreme amount of weight as Salem has a very bad case of It's All About Me

Salem: The moment you put your desires before my own they will be lost to you. This isn't a threat, this is simply the truth. The path to your desires is only found through.

Funny enough Ozma's relationship with Salem started by him killing her dad and Salem wasn't bothered in the slightest by this.

That really should of raised a lot of red flags for the great and powerful warrior.

Edited by FKJ10 on Feb 19th 2022 at 3:04:30 AM

FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#74978: Feb 19th 2022 at 3:16:03 PM

Honestly? The moment God of Light posited the conditions for lifting the curse, I was under an impression that this is just not going to happen; further pronounced by both Brothers leaving to parts unknown. Yes, they supposedly will return if all four Relics are put together, but even if they do, they'll probably just destroy the planet and leave Salem to drift in space.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74979: Feb 19th 2022 at 3:23:11 PM

[up]And them, salem will just stop thinkingtongue

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#74980: Feb 19th 2022 at 3:26:46 PM

I've been kind of drifting in and out of this thread to avoid this discussion happening again for the umpteenth time, but I'll just drop in to give my thoughts on the Gods again.

Here they are. ...What, did you assume I was gonna go on an entire diatribe again and post several paragraphs? Why do that when I have on file the times I already did so and save myself the effort.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#74981: Feb 19th 2022 at 3:29:18 PM

[up][up]

[up][up][up]

I know you're both joking, but I have genuinely been wondering whether space is going to come into play in the final act. Everything about the Brothers screams "Sufficiently Advanced Aliens." (The day will be saved by Dylan once she finally capitulates to Grumpy McBossypants's demand to do a piece.)

Edited by TwinBird on Feb 19th 2022 at 6:30:02 AM

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#74982: Feb 19th 2022 at 3:31:51 PM

[up]Isn't "Grumpy McBossypants" still on a shit load of horse tranquilizers after he nearly had a meltdown from Dylan going AWOL for a few weeks?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74983: Feb 19th 2022 at 5:17:45 PM

You know what's funny about RWBY. This entire story could have been avoided if Ozma had gotten a flu shot

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#74984: Feb 19th 2022 at 6:05:28 PM

"That is not a endgoal, that is a objective, a sort of creed and is enterely defensive since he cant get rid of her not matter what while Salem does have and endgame, by that it is stalling, Ozma cant win ergo he will asure as much he can that she dosent.

Let remenber this is not a condition Ozma want to be in, he wants to move on and to some level he wants Salem to move as well(as Wyld said, the posibility the two still love each other bury under crush of hatred and bitterness is still there)."

Again, Yes Ozpin can Win, it is simply that winning wont include killing Salem. But that doesn't matter because that isn't what the Priority is.

"The problem with that i a) the game dosent rest when it finish b) the other player also do their best to ruin the other as in this case, the killing of Silver eye warrior is a good show or creating new grimms as the hound or maybe even monstra, Salem isnt left behind from Ozma she just readapt as well, after all with a hacker, a thief, a thug and former huntress she manage to wreck Beacon and nearly destroy the tower which it would cripple all comunication.

Also finally, Salem is barely worry about the loses she takes and have learn to take defeat with grace and a shurg as we see in volume 3, she is indeed tired of this eternal battle with Ozma but she isnt about being defeated, the same cannot be said about Ozma who is clear wear of all the loses he have to endure since after all, Ozma is cosplaying a shady mastermind but just dosent have the heart, so is more player 2 saying "good, let try again" with Player one being tired but knowing very well he cant quit."

Yeah but it still lets player 1 Win each game, not being able to Rest sucks but it isn't the Priority of Player 1.

Killing off SEW wasnt part of her adapting, atleast not directly, she has been doing that nearly as long as the Secret War has been going on if the Fairy tales are

She is behind Ozma, by far. You say that stuff about the Fall of beacon as if it is some demonstration of how easy she can readapt and turn things back with so little, its the opposite, for reasons I have said before, She needed a Member of Ozpins inner circle to Believe she was some invincible villain for her to pull off literally any of it, It took years of Planning, there were loads of things that could have gone wrong and did go wrong, it was nearly foiled but things bounced back thanks to quick thinking from Cinder and screw ups from James. And even after all that, Ozma still ensured it wasn't a complete victory for Salem by hiding away the Choice Relic and Reincarnating Earlier then Salem and co planned.

And....That isn't Salem, Volume 3 wasn't her smugly shrugging off a defeat, it was her being happy having Scored a Victory. When she has been beaten as we see in Volume 6? She is pissed, she keeps her composure but she is very much furious, and Recall seeing her Reaction that Oz was already back? She tells them all to leave before showing how Furious she is, then has to completely Switch up gears. And then there is her 'Why, do, you, keep, coming, back!?" To Ozma?. Salem is handling the Length of this whole thing Worse then Oz. Oz is tired, Salem is blood curdling furious at how long this has gone, and that makes sense. Ozpin can experience Love, friendship with people to keep him going. Salem has nothing but Pawns and Abuse Victims. Wyld has told me over DM how the writers wrote Oz as someone who kept the Villains up at night that they had to work hard and carefully to Plan around.

Salem is a Genius villain and Schemer who is a very serious threat, but she has lost, she has lost 'HARD at some points and is against someone who has outplayed her many times before, and she knows that. She is aware she can be beaten so she uses her Paper Tiger manipulations to get around this, she does things to Ensure or rely on Oz not being the One she is actually playing against.

"Kinda but not, she is right Salem can be defeat but she seriously understimated Salem threat, I mean the fact Salem manage her to crawl and cry with just a simple work kinda ilustrate way hw ruby is still unprepared to face Salem, she is getting there but not yet. The reason being even "defeating her" is still thinking in term of strenght, that they just have to overpower so she crawl back to the shadows."

I said that she is on the right track, but Salem doing that isnt a display of her underestimating

"Except no? James problem is his lack of trust and is the point of volume 7 and 8, trusting implied risk and sometimes you cant just logically trust someone or not is a sort of act of faith(or to put it better, doing from heart) so he put faith in his military and machines(his plan is pretty good extension of that), with Leo prove a traitor it become even more dificult to trust, is not a sismple as "well is logically the must simple solution, isnt?"."

Someone can have more then one Problem, James had a Litany of problems, from Fear to his Pride and Hero complex, in this case both the Problems you mentioned and the Ones I did feed into one another

"Funny enough Ozma's relationship with Salem started by him killing her dad and Salem wasn't bothered in the slightest by this."

Salems father was a Controlling Abuser who treated her like a Possession her whole life, Salem Did have a self centered side even back then but with that alone...

Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 19th 2022 at 6:08:47 AM

Bow to the Prototype
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#74985: Feb 19th 2022 at 6:35:15 PM

You know what's funny about RWBY. This entire story could have been avoided if Ozma had gotten a flu shot
Or the Gods decided to move Salem to Mu.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74986: Feb 19th 2022 at 6:43:15 PM

"Again, Yes Ozpin can Win, it is simply that winning wont include killing Salem. But that doesn't matter because that isn't what the Priority is. "

This the issue: Ozpin cant convince Salem, he cant kill her ergo he cant win, Ozpin havent change priority, he simply settle in what he have. That is the reason he cant said the truth because Ozma also really in trickery as Salem: if Salem cast herself in the mantle as unstobale for of destruction, Ozma does as big man who know exactly what to do, the man in charge that even Qrow and James can rellie, nobody have pierce how hopeless Ozma really feel on the whole deal.

", She needed a Member of Ozpins inner circle to Believe she was some invincible villain for her to pull off literally any of it, It took years of Planning, there were loads of things that could have gone wrong and did go wrong, it was nearly foiled but things bounced back thanks to quick thinking from Cinder and screw ups from James. And even after all that, Ozma still ensured it wasn't a complete victory for Salem by hiding away the Choice Relic and Reincarnating Earlier then Salem and co planned."

The face she manage to snag some of ozpin inner circle IS a testament to her skill, they should be Ozma loyal men and yet one betray her, two defect under the weight of the true and now pretty much quick and try to drink himself to death, let remenber that thing go wrong in big part because Cinder was suddenly hit a Silver eye warrior that wasnt suposed to be there in the first place, otherwise she would cripple communication entire all remanent, it said more on how much RWBY were a spanner in works that Ozpin on security.

Let remenber the great war go so back that Ozma have to use two relics in order to win, that tell you how serious it is.

"it was her being happy having Scored a Victory. "

And yet she shurg off Cinder faliure: she failed to destroy the tower or secure the relic and Beacon still stand and how she is hurt and maimed and yet she brush all that aside for the idea of long plan, volume 5 is another thing enterely, they lost not because the hero but because Adam and Cinder screw up with their own desires and she was more pissed of Hazel and Emerald trying to lie on her face than the ruined plan herself.

Salem is not a paper tiger: that is when someone try to make himself scarier or bigger to intimate but are harmless(Roman to Cinder in volume 1 is the closer), Salem show she can throw her weight around and prove isnt enterely smoke and mirrors.

[up]The lost fable clearly is a fable in favour of socialist medicinetongue

Edited by unknowing on Feb 19th 2022 at 10:43:51 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#74987: Feb 19th 2022 at 8:21:58 PM

" he cant kill her ergo he cant win"

That is not the situation though, that is what I have been saying. The whole point is learning the lesson Ozpin learned all those years ago, that they don't need to Kill Salem to Win.

"That is the reason he cant said the truth because Ozma also really in trickery as Salem: if Salem cast herself in the mantle as unstobale for of destruction, Ozma does as big man who know exactly what to do, the man in charge that even Qrow and James can rellie, nobody have pierce how hopeless Ozma really feel on the whole deal."

I would argue the issue is something Different, he does have the Answers its just not the Answers people want to hear, they want to hear how to destroy Salem forever and when they discover he doesn't plan for that, they assume that means he was just stalling or that all this was for nothing and there is no way to Win against Salem, and they are wrong. They are getting better at realizing just what Winning against Salem actually means.

"The face she manage to snag some of ozpin inner circle IS a testament to her skill, they should be Ozma loyal men and yet one betray her, two defect under the weight of the true and now pretty much quick and try to drink himself to death, let remenber that thing go wrong in big part because Cinder was suddenly hit a Silver eye warrior that wasnt suposed to be there in the first place, otherwise she would cripple communication entire all remanent, it said more on how much RWBY were a spanner in works that Ozpin on security."

I have never said she wasn't intelligent, but this Notion that she is some nigh unstoppable Villain who is able to easily Crush any of Ozpins progress is not true and the main reason she gets to go as far as she does is by Pretending to be exactly that

I was never considering Ruby blasting Cinder to be part of that, namely because at that point the fall of beacon already happned, I mean numerous things could have happned to keep it from happening at all.

"And yet she shurg off Cinder faliure: she failed to destroy the tower or secure the relic and Beacon still stand and how she is hurt and maimed and yet she brush all that aside for the idea of long plan, volume 5 is another thing enterely, they lost not because the hero but because Adam and Cinder screw up with their own desires and she was more pissed of Hazel and Emerald trying to lie on her face than the ruined plan herself."

That isn't her brushing off failure for the long plan, its just that at the time it was still mostly a victory the Benefits seemed to outweigh the Positives, Ozpin was dead and now they were dividing remnant, when she discovers the Main benefit, Ozpin being gone didn't last and they could potentially undo all the Progress made with the Fall of Beacon she Snaps. To some degree it seemed to just be giving Cinder a Bone too, as she is far colder to Cinder and concerned for Oz real fate and plan

"Salem is not a paper tiger: that is when someone try to make himself scarier or bigger to intimate but are harmless(Roman to Cinder in volume 1 is the closer), Salem show she can throw her weight around and prove isnt enterely smoke and mirrors."

Its a case where Tropes Are Flexible and that is just the closest word I can think of for it, as I have said she is a geniune threat, but much of her theme is that she utilizes the idea she is unstoppable to make most of the progress she has done.

Bow to the Prototype
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74988: Feb 19th 2022 at 9:01:18 PM

Salem is like Voldemort. She is plenty dangerous in her own right, but a big part of her power is making herself seem even scarier so people do stupid shit out of fear of her.

I am actually reminded of the Wild Hunt from Witcher 3. They are also plenty dangerous in their own right, being powerful superhuman Elves. But they make themselves seem even scarier by wearing intimidating black armor and helmets that deepen their voices to sound demonic.

Edited by M84 on Feb 20th 2022 at 1:03:22 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#74989: Feb 20th 2022 at 12:35:08 AM

Just a question but if Salem is supposed to be immortal yet has been defeated, is this like a Castlevania Dracula situation where she does die but revives after a set amount of time?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74990: Feb 20th 2022 at 12:37:18 AM

No, she's got Complete Immortality going for her. Oz is the one with Resurrective Immortality that has some downtime between each rez.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#74991: Feb 20th 2022 at 12:39:39 AM

Really? She looks like she's died a couple of times.

So how do they delay her throughout all the years if she's got complete immortality and can just go one man army?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74992: Feb 20th 2022 at 12:43:36 AM

This is because she used to prefer acting in the shadows corrupting humanity over time.

It's only recently she's decided "fuck this I'm handling this myself."

As I said before, she's getting sick of waiting.

It's kind of like that bit where Thanos of the MCU decides it's time to gather the Infinity Stones personally.

Edited by M84 on Feb 21st 2022 at 4:44:28 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#74993: Feb 20th 2022 at 12:47:23 AM

Seems to be more of a war of ideals than actual fighting.

This sounds promising. Maybe I'll continue with volume 2 with my guest when I'm less busy.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74994: Feb 20th 2022 at 12:50:37 AM

God of Light brought Ozma back from the afterlife and told him not too seek out Salem for his quest to redeem humanity. Because Light knew she was a lost cause at this point. Oz went against the advice sought Salem out, told her everything and got the despair he was warned would come.

God of Light: Now before you go out and guide these new humans Oz, do yourself a favor and get back into the dating pool. Your ex is really bad news.

God of Darkness: No kidding. I'm a jealous spiteful deity and even I think she has a bit of an ego problem. She thinks of herself as the main character of a fairy tale with everyone else, even us gods, as side characters or living props in her story.

<thousands of years later>

Oz: In hindsight I really wish I had looked up that one cute brunette instead of looking for Salem again.

Edited by M84 on Feb 21st 2022 at 4:51:48 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#74995: Feb 20th 2022 at 4:28:58 AM

You know what might've fixed her ego problem? Letting her die. Because then she'd be dead.

I just don't get what the brothers have to gain by teaching her this lesson. She was one person who had a character flaw that many people in the world already have. Oh, she's full of herself? Who cares? Tell her to get over it. Punishing her in this way has done absolutely nothing but cause misery for millions of people.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 20th 2022 at 1:25:22 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#74996: Feb 20th 2022 at 5:08:37 AM

Gods are dicks.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74997: Feb 20th 2022 at 5:32:46 AM

They were going for an Ironic Hell deal. Remember that this all started because she defied death to bring Oz back. So the Gods decided to teach her why death is so important by denying it to her. This was supposed to bar her from ever being with Oz again.

But even the Gods underestimated just how bad her Never My Fault complex was.

The Brother Gods even gave Salem an out in this, telling her she should go and learn to respect the sanctity of life and death.

Instead, she decided to turn humanity against them and raise an army to attack them.

Edited by M84 on Feb 20th 2022 at 9:36:28 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#74998: Feb 20th 2022 at 6:02:00 AM

Then what about all the people the Brothers genocided? Where was their chance to learn a lesson?

See, this is my hangup. The power dynamic between the brothers and everyone else makes it really hard for me to blame anyone but them for what happened.

Salem is selfish and egotistical. But i don't care because without the brothers enabling her she wouldn't have been able to cause half the damage she did. And because of their power they can choose to deal with a problem in any way they want. They chose to put her in an Ironic Hell and then had the gall to be annoyed when this only made her angrier.

And trying to bring Ozma back is one of the less awful things her egotism has ever driven her to do.

The brothers act like they have an Omniscient Morality License, but they clearly aren't Omniscient.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 20th 2022 at 2:04:45 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74999: Feb 20th 2022 at 6:05:32 AM

[up]TBF, humanity had turned on the gods. Salem had convinced the kingdoms to take immortality from the gods, which is how she raised her massive army in the first place.

Again, this sort of thing is based on stuff like The Great Flood.

Edited by M84 on Feb 20th 2022 at 10:19:56 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#75000: Feb 20th 2022 at 6:21:24 AM

But remember, they're gods. They can respond to a problem in anyway they so desire. For normal people, killing in self defence can be a justifiable position, because your life is actually in danger. Given the casual ease with which the brothers genocided all of humanity, they clearly posed no actual threat to them. So they probably could've done all sorts of things to punish or keep humanity away before resorting to genocide. And they didn't just kill the people directly attacking them. They killed EVERYBODY. Men, women, children, presumably people who were still fine with the gods. Everyone.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 20th 2022 at 2:22:44 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

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