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FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74951: Feb 17th 2022 at 5:47:29 PM

[up][up][up]

Ruby: Professor... (Ozpin looks up at her) What is your plan to defeat Salem?

Ozpin: I... don't have one...

Volume 6 episode 4

Ozpin flat out said he didn't have a plan.

[up] Okay now that's funny. Oz should have used the reaper death seal

Edited by FKJ10 on Feb 17th 2022 at 5:47:51 AM

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#74952: Feb 17th 2022 at 7:02:23 PM

@Rebel Falcon

Okay, not gonna lie, I want to see more of Ozpin's hilarious attempts to seal Sally over the years. [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#74953: Feb 17th 2022 at 7:04:33 PM

Nah, it'll most likely be that they seal her in a rice cooker but they forgot the seal at home so she pops out stronger than ever.

Dammit Qrow! [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#74954: Feb 17th 2022 at 7:47:23 PM

I will said Ironwood plan counting of Salem being killable, if he new the truth them he will run away, I will said Salem plan was to share the truth right in the exact moment when fight become a imposibility.

Timing is everything.

Yes, and it's something the kids had to learn — they were waiting for that Eureka moment where Ironwood would light up in neon letters the second he became Trustworthy, they could tell him The Truth, and everything would become sunshine and rainbows.

Okay, I'm being facetious, but they really were waiting for that magical moment where Ironwood 'proved' himself, allowing them to tell him the truth, and then they'd all come together against Salem because they'd done it 'the right way'. Look how excited they were when they thought that magical moment had arrived.

And then it blew up in their faces because they didn't understand that there is no perfect moment, there is no perfect way to share devastating information, and someone who is trustworthy in a moment based on a specific set of criteria that change the instant you give them a brand new reality by telling the truth may not be trustworthy in that new reality. They didn't understand that someone can act in good faith until they hit a wall that breaks them and makes everything blow up. They didn't understand that the reserves of strength it takes someone to absorb the Awful Truth leaves them with nothing in the tank for the next crisis that crops up, at which point everything becomes much worse than they initially believed it to be. On this latter point, Ironwood did have some self-insight, hence his warning to Oscar that he couldn't take any more. Just like Ozpin's 'more mistake' comment wasn't hyperbole, neither was Ironwood's 'no more surprises' comment.

I have said in the past that, when you know for a fact that someone's entire plan rests on the necessity of the Big Bad being killable, and you know for a fact that the Big Bad is not killable, your crisis is far, far greater than just whether he can be trusted with the truth. You are enabling a plan you actively know will fail. You're feeding the hope of a man you know cannot succeed.

And this is the problem they didn't realise they caused: while they thought they were waiting for that magical trust line to be crossed, what they were actually doing was building up Ironwood's hope that he could actually succeed — and the higher someone climbs, the harder they fall. There are two things in storytelling that create monsters when they're built up before that fall — pride and hope. It's a common theme that building up someone's hope before dashing it results in more extreme consequences.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the heroes for Ironwood's character flaws, and they were genuinely in a position where they weren't sure they could trust any headmaster given how let down by the previous two they felt, but there's no doubt that they made some big mistakes of their own. And one of them was the way they handled Ironwood after learning that the success of his plan rested entirely on Salem being killable.

The other thing I've talked about in the past was that the moment they picked to tell Ironwood the truth was one of the worst-timed moments they could have chosen. They were so focussed on the fact he was finally being truthful, that they didn't stop to think what the consequence of their own confession would be.

At the very moment they had pushed Ironwood into being truthful with everyone, they force him to start keeping secrets from people all over again. I consider the timing of their confession to be far worse than the decision to keep it secret in the first place.

Now, as I've said many times, they had to make mistakes like this to better understand Ozpin's journey. They had to learn that the idea that truth and lies, honesty and secrecy, is black-and-white — that truth fixes everything and honesty makes everything better — is not how reality works. They had to learn that people are not linear. Just because someone develops into a trustworthy person now, it doesn't mean they always will be. Just because someone can cope in the moment, it doesn't mean they can keep coping. The reverse is also true.

The heroes needed to learn, so they needed to make these kinds of mistakes. So, I have no objections to them screwing this up; it was absolutely necessary for them to have that experience and gain that insight into Ozpin's situation.

I've seen parts of the fandom complain that the heroes just accepted Ozpin's speech when he didn't apologise note  By the same token, the heroes never said the same back to him, even though their sentiment was as apologetic as his own (again, their words were appropriate to the transgression). That's because the issue wasn't about who should apologise or how they should word it, it was about the need to understand people who have vastly different life experiences to themselves — and that was something both the heroes and Ozpin desperately needed. The heroes needed an insight into how someone can get trapped in the fear of not knowing who to trust or how to recognise if someone will be able to cope with the truth, and Ozpin needed an insight into where he had come from, where he had ended up, and what he needed to do to reconnect with what he had lost along the way.

It is unprecedented how Salem is moving or that is targeting the maiden?.

It was made clear that what was unprecedented was the manner in which the attempt to steal the power had occurred. It wasn't the bog standard "kill the Maiden, get the power" scenario. It was different. Something strange had been done to Amber, something that had unnaturally split the power in half. Something they didn't understand, and therefore didn't know what the consequences would be. They knew it had something to do with Salem, that she had sent someone after Amber, but they didn't know what. They didn't know how. And they didn't know who.

They weren't even allowing Amber to die because they were afraid of what would happen if she did. They were artificially sustaining her life until they came up with a plan to prevent the assailant from gaining the second half of the power. The plan they ended up with was to let the magic's original owner choose someone to transfer the remaining half to in the hope that it could prevent Salem's assassin from becoming a full Maiden. So, Ozpin settled on the person he felt had two things: all the best personality and skills, but also someone who seemed mentally capable of coping with cost (or as mentally capable as anyone could be in such an unnatural situation).

Is more that Salem does kinda sorta have a point, withholding information like that mean every hunter goes to fight with a very diferent concept that most people, especially maiden who dont know all their effort is a never ending stalling tactic, while Salem is living stuff out, is clear Ozpin know exactly what is subjecting this people.

The idea that the truth gives people the same perspective, the same idea, the same concept, I don't think is right. People create their own truth. When characters are given the same information — whether it's all of the information or just part of it — they can absorb it, perceive it, understand it, in very different ways to each other.

And, again, when it's a choice between letting Salem destroy the entire planet or fighting for the right to exist, while a Forever War is a never-ending stalemate for the immortals (not so much the mortals, who will eventually die and pass that burden down to future generations), every single day the planet keeps existing is a victory.

It might not be the stunning final climax that is the end to end all wars, but it is a victory. It may not be the goal that Ozpin was originally reincarnated to achieve but, if you've secretly lost all hope for ever achieving that victory, then what you're fighting for is the right for people stay alive. And every day you fight for that gives the whole world one more day of life.

It's a very literal case of "taking things a day at a time".

Ozpin basically keeps Moving the Goalposts to Salem's frustration.

I like that description.

Forget everything I've posted. It's this. Just this.

Those obstacle Ozpin kept bringing against Salem? they are made of people and unlike her, people die when they are killed.

You've got it the wrong way round. If Salem's goal is the destruction of all life, then life itself is always going to be an obstacle. Every single living person is an obstacle. The planet itself is an obstacle. By definition, it doesn't matter whether people are fighting her or the Grimm or no-one at all — every single living organism on the planet, including the planet, is standing in the way of her goal.

What Ozpin is doing is giving people a chance to fight back. And this is the point that stood between Hazel and Ozpin Volume 8 — encouraging people to fight when you know the individual at the heart of the threat is unkillable can look horrific... until you learn that it's actually the only way anyone in the world is going to survive — that it's the only way the world itself is going to survive.

Faced with the reality of someone who is trying to destroy the planet, not having anyone fight means that the whole world dies. If some people fight, some of those people will die — but the rest of the world gets to keep living.

That was the missing piece of the puzzle for Hazel. Why encourage people to fight an unkillable villain when you know that some of those people will die and even the people who survive won't be able to kill her? Answer? Because you're saving the entire planet by doing so.

He's basically in the same situation as LOTR's Gandalf. Gandalf cannot fight Sauron on equal terms despite ostensibly being an entity on the same order as Sauron. Instead, he's supposed to guide and inspire the people of Middle-Earth to stand up to Sauron.

Hm. I've made some superficial comparisons between Ozpin and Gandalf in the past, but it didn't occur to me to go deeper into it until I read that. It feels like a face-palm moment, as both Gandalf and Ozpin have been inspired by Odin and many of the tales that surround him.

My go to is usually Soul Eater. Doubt it would have change your opinion, but it normally what pops into my head whenever I think of scythe-users.

I haven't seen Soul Eater, which is why I can't make that comparison. I keep meaning to. One day, I'll get there.

This is ignoring the fact that there is a method of permanently defeating the enemy. Shouldn't be satisfied with such a existential threat of being "delayed" when there are at least two solutions (unification and summoning the gods + teaching her to chill out/meaning of death)

Punting such an existential danger for future generations to struggle with is not ideal. This isn't some inevitable fact of nature that people ought to nobly struggle against, this is a fixable issue. It ought to be fixed. Just because it's hard, doesn't mean that folks should be satisfied with passing the problem onto future generations.

Are you talking from an audience perspective or an in-universe one? I've mostly been talking from character perspectives — as they currently are, and have been in the past.

Ozma has been trying to unify humanity for thousands of years, and she has been trying to divide humanity for thousands of years. We've already been told in Volume 6 that the conclusion was humanity cannot be united while Salem is alive.

As to teaching her to chill out — she became a force of pure destruction thanks to her dip in the Pools of Annihilation. So, she actually has a supernatural drive to be a destructive being.

Even when that supernatural drive is taken away, we're still left with a woman who was selfish, arrogant and suffered from Never My Fault.

You cannot teach a person who doesn't want to learn.

Yes, obviously, speaking as the audience, it's very easy to say that the question Oz should have asked Jinn was "How can Salem be saved?" instead of "How do I destroy Salem?" but we have to approach this from what the characters themselves know, which is why I generally frame my posts that way. The only thing Ozma knows is that Salem is a force of destruction who desperately wants to die and believes the only way to end her life is to exploit the "world still turns" clause.

So, getting back to the audience perspective — and mine, specifically, here's my thoughts on what needs to happen:

Why can't Ozma overcome that deathwish? They're both trapped in a cycle pain and trauma that has no apparent end for either of them. Neither of them is getting out of that without help. Why can't Ozma overcome that deathwish? Because he wants to die, too.

That, I firmly believe, is what everything boils down to. Salem has an solution for her deathwish — destroy the planet. Ozpin has no solution for his because his only route rests on the unification of humanity in harmony, which he's becoming increasingly despondant about achieving (all but admitted to Oscar in V8) and which he thinks is unachievable while Salem exists anyway (Jinn told us that). So, not only does he secretly want to die, he secretly has given up hope he ever can — he's secretly given up hope of ever being able to unify humanity in harmony.

I keep saying that the route to saving Salem will first have to begin with saving Ozma. He needs saving first. That is necessary before he's ever going to adopt the mentality that perhaps Salem can be saved. It's clear it's either never occurred to him, or he gave up that dream a very long time ago. But, that brings us back to Ozma needing to be saved first.

The problem is that someone in-universe needs to figure that out. The heroes need to figure it out. Assuming my theory is right, of course. But I believe Ren is The Empath for a reason, and it's to get into the heads (or, in the case, the hearts) of both of them so that the heroes can figure out the right path to take.

But, let's say Ozma gets on board with the 'save Salem' concept (once someone has come up with it, of course), that still requires working on Salem. And, let's say she gets on board with trying things that way, it's still not an automatic fix for the situation — it just means that humanity has a chance now when it didn't previously.

This is the first time I've heard of this series, and frankly an incredible reach IMO.

The host who created the cane had a wife and their two children had silver eyes. We also know that the Light used by SEW comes from the God of Light. The hint is that there's something about Ozma's reincarnation that can permit Light's blessing to be passed to humanity through silver eyes.

The way I look at it is this: if Ozma cannot first find harmony with his own host, how can he ever bring the rest of humanity into harmony? Jinn told us that it took him time to learn how to share lives with his host. The lifetime in which the cane was created was one where we see the host in charge of his life, with Ozma staying in the background. Their appearances are identical, suggesting that Ozma is the one who has adapted to the host, who hasn't been overwritten or lost to Ozma. It's that achievement of unity with the host that allows the power to be passed on in the form of SEW.

It's not just a hint about the origin of the SEW, it's also a hint about possible outcomes for Oscar.

She's a power-tripper. Cinder said as far back as Volume 2: "It's not about overpowering an enemy... It's about taking what power they have." As a disciple of Salem, I believe Salem shares the same view.

I would agree with that. Cinder often cribs things Salem's said to her, and Salem has repeatedly commented on learning how to use people rather than just killing them willy-nilly.

Ruby: Professor... (Ozpin looks up at her) What is your plan to defeat Salem?

Ozpin: I... don't have one...

Volume 6 episode 4

Ozpin flat out said he didn't have a plan.

Context is everything. Or, as I like to put it, Ozpin answered the question she really asked instead of the question she sounded like she asked.

Within the context of everything that had just happened and what they were talking about (Salem being killable), Ruby was actually asking what Ozpin's plan was for permanently stopping her. (Revisited at Brunswick when Oscar comments that they signed up to save the world not just delay the inevitable).

He doesn't have a plan for permanently stopping Salem, but he's very clearly had plans for thwarting her plans going back thousands of years. Sometimes, he probably does have to wing it, but sometimes, he will have plans. They're just not the plans people thought. People thought they were signing up to defeat Salem forever. Now they know he doesn't have a plan for that.

In Volume 7, when Ruby is busy walking Ozpin's path, she reaches the conclusion that, just because Salem cannot be killed, it doesn't mean that she cannot be beaten. That's exactly how Ozpin has been working, and he confirms as much when arguing with Hazel in Volume 8.

On the subject of plans to defeat Salem, Ruby has also been doing something else like Ozpin: she plans for the things that are in front of her — the things Salem throws at them. At no point yet has she made any plans about Salem. It's something that worried Ren to death during the Atlas Arc. He felt like no-one was thinking about this elephant in the room, and it was worrying him.

And that brings us back full circle: Ozpin doesn't plan for permanently stopping Salem because he doesn't have a clue how to do that. So, he deals with what she puts in front of him. He plans against her plans, she counterplans, he counters the counterplans, and so on.

And that, for now, is how Ruby's doing things, too.

I say 'for now' because she's the hero, so obviously things will change eventually.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Feb 18th 2022 at 7:42:10 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74955: Feb 17th 2022 at 7:59:07 PM

Ozma's a Hope Bringer who has lost hope. For any real solution to be found, the first step is to help him regain it.

And on the other side of the coin, Salem realizes that she'll never truly be able to win if Ozma does regain hope. Hence why she's so intent on breaking him.

Edited by M84 on Feb 18th 2022 at 12:02:02 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#74956: Feb 17th 2022 at 8:07:02 PM

[up][up]I don't really have anything of substance to say, just that I was curious about the size of your posts and this one here when copy-pasted into Word comes out as a fat 5 pages and change. :P

So anyways, Someone made a VR multiplayer fan game.

Edited by TheAirman on Feb 17th 2022 at 10:07:14 AM

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74957: Feb 17th 2022 at 8:17:17 PM

One thing I like about the Forever War is that the weariness isn't one-sided. As much angst as it causes Oz, Salem is also sick of it. She hates having her death wish be delayed for all this time and she wants it to end already dammit.

When Salem grabs Oscar's face and angrily asks him "Why do you keep coming back?" you can just hear centuries of frustration in that one line.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#74958: Feb 17th 2022 at 8:19:45 PM

This is kind of related to points ive already made now but to respond

"I kinda disagree, Ozpin is unkillable and he just as good a stoping her, there is also the fact she dosent know all about the relic, is not "I beat salem each time", is more "I can contain it but barely", we just dont know how much destruction and suffering Salem have manage to do in all this years but is clear that a lot."

That is only the case if we define Victory as Permanently killing Salem when it isn't. The goal is stopping Salem's plans and keeping the Relics from her

I wouldn't even really call it close or 'Barely', I think at the start of the Show Oz is very firmly the one on Top. Salem has none of the Relics and Oz has people in each Council of remnant.

The fall of Beacon was a way of evening the playing field. And even then it took a whole lot of complex planning and effort, and there were numerous things that could have and Did go wrong before the villains were able to bounce back thanks to Cinder playing Xanatos Speed Chess and Ironwood screwing up(Actually Realized that both her Major victories in the show depended on that), and even then Oz was still prepared, as Salem still cannot Find the Relic of choice and He was able to reincarnate earlier then she planned

"Ok, technically yes. Buuuuuuut.

This is ignoring the fact that there is a method of permanently defeating the enemy. Shouldn't be satisfied with such a existential threat of being "delayed" when there are at least two solutions (unification and summoning the gods + teaching her to chill out/meaning of death)

Punting such an existential danger for future generations to struggle with is not ideal. This isn't some inevitable fact of nature that people ought to nobly struggle against, this is a fixable issue. It ought to be fixed. Just because it's hard, doesn't mean that folks should be satisfied with passing the problem onto future generations.

Evokes feelings of our real-world issues regarding energy futures, infrastructure concerns and various other future difficulties."

I don't really think that's comparable, in those cases it would be difficult but totally possible to find solutions, right now neither are really on the table.

Ozma has been doing all he can to unite The world and with the saving Salem option, I dont really think its a case of Audience POV vs characters one because talking to Salem was the first thing Ozma tried to do. The god of Light told Ozma the Woman he loved was gone, and Ozma didnt believe him and met with her again, Then he revealed the truth to Salem and tried to reach out to her, only for her to give the "We can replace them with what they could never be" line.

In essence, Ozma has been shown that GOL was right in regards to Salem, he has tried to talk with her, and it Did not work.

Bow to the Prototype
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#74959: Feb 18th 2022 at 2:52:45 AM

Remnant VR : Vale is a fan-made project, with no official association to Rooster Teeth or VR Chat. This is not endorsed by Rooster Teeth in any way. Rooster Teeth and RWBY are trade names or registered trademarks of Rooster Teeth Productions, LLC. © Rooster Teeth Productions, LLC.This game is playable entirely for free through VR Chat. Nothing about it is sold or monetized.

Remnant VR: Vale is now cross platform and compatible with the Quest 2! Dinky soloed the quest build for the past few months and was able to publish it this week, so quest users can finally jump in with their PC friends & play the game!

I’ve already sunk in about 8 hours into this map and I gotta say, this might be one of the most mentally engaging and functionally elaborate maps in all of VR Chat. By that, I mean it’s really fun. Between the weapons, enemies, difficulties, things really aren’t dull.

I will say that it can actually be a little too chaotic at times, but dang, it does it make you feel great for playing well.

I don’t know if this game is ever going to receive anymore content updates than it already has, but I can’t wait to see where it goes. I hope it gets the recognition it deserves.

FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74960: Feb 18th 2022 at 10:52:34 AM

[up][up] I honestly wish Oz just took over for the second to snark at her

Ozpin: [drly] This whole mess started cause you wanted me back in the first place.

Salem's entire story can be summed up as Be Careful What You Wish For

Wanted to be freed from her dad?

Saved by her future handsome warrior husband who later dies from the flu.

Wants husband back and tricks the Gods to do so.

Gods make her immortal and bar her from the afterlife

Tries to get revenge in a Rage Against the Heavens

Dark God smite everyone but her.

Husband is finally brought back but now works for the Light God.

Kill him in the nastiest of divorce fights but he just keeps coming back now.

No wonder the lady just wants to kill herself.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74961: Feb 18th 2022 at 11:17:11 AM

"That is only the case if we define Victory as Permanently killing Salem when it isn't. The goal is stopping Salem's plans and keeping the Relics from her".

Except that isnt victory, that is stalling, otherwise ozpin woudnt come to Jinn asking how to kill Salem, he changed objective sure but is a reason he is a depress because he know he is a not win escenario, just staling for all eternity.

"The fall of Beacon was a way of evening the playing field. And even then it took a whole lot of complex planning and effort, and there were numerous things that could have and Did go wrong before the villains were able to bounce back thanks to Cinder playing Xanatos Speed Chess and Ironwood screwing up(Actually Realized that both her Major victories in the show depended on that), and even then Oz was still prepared, as Salem still cannot Find the Relic of choice and He was able to reincarnate earlier then she planned "

You are overlooking something here: that Salem was able to steal amber power and let her near death(and who have killed her sonner havr Qrow didnt intervined), or that a master, one of Ozpin own men was compromised and the other work behind him does show Ozpin unity is fragile.

Also as Slade of teen titan said "trust take years to build and only a single moment to shatter", Ozpin need a lot of time to build the cities and is not like he cant sprind that from thin air. You cant use Salem using a complicated plan as prove Ozpin was superior since complex plan is both bread and butter.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
mach56gs Since: Dec, 2019
#74962: Feb 18th 2022 at 12:03:54 PM

It was made clear that what was unprecedented was the manner in which the attempt to steal the power had occurred. It wasn't the bog standard "kill the Maiden, get the power" scenario. It was different.

Yeah, this is true. Looking back at the start of this discussion, it's true that what happened to Amber is novel.

Still, Ozpin has had thousands of years. He has experience with Salem - he knows she's a magical being who loves to "play goddess". Such new a terrifying developments like Cinder + The Hound shouldn't surprise him that much.

Are you talking from an audience perspective or an in-universe one? I've mostly been talking from character perspectives — as they currently are, and have been in the past.

Both, really. But let's just focus on in-universe:

RWBY were able to see Ironwood's terrible plan for what it was, a losing play. You don't run down the clock and run the football when you're down + there are 5 minutes left in regulation play. You have to be aggressive. Seek answers. Take risks to win. Otherwise, you're delaying the inevitable loss.

Ozpin arguably has just been doing what Ironwood has been doing, but with extra steps.

That's exactly the problem with excusing Ozpin's failure by talking about how the odds are hard and humanity should feel fortunate to have lasted so long. We can appreciate Ozpin for trying so hard for so long (more on this soon), but you should be able to criticize him as well.

And that brings us back full circle: Ozpin doesn't plan for permanently stopping Salem because he doesn't have a clue how to do that. So, he deals with what she puts in front of him. He plans against her plans, she counterplans, he counters the counterplans, and so on.

You cannot teach a person who doesn't want to learn.

Certainly. But I will bet an arm that RWBY ends with Salem learning the value of death in some way.

I think the mere existence of the hunter academies and the theme of a "simple soul" is indicative of Ozpin's hope. You quote Ozpin saying "I don't have [a plan]", and I think that's honest - because he's realized that he can't solve the issue directly. It's up to RWBY to be the ambassadors, the people to find the solution.

Of course he suffers because he's seen this attempt fail (STRQ + probably countless others). Which is why he is so low on hope. But Oscar's bravery inspires him. I think he's already saved. I don't think he needs more consultation that he's already getting from Oscar himself.

Ozpin deserves our appreciation and sympathy. Although he is similar to Ironwood (who also deserves some modicum of sympathy), there is still a clear and important distinction between their plans and priorities. Ozpin is still trying, even though he's at his wits' end, he is experimenting and attempting to find the answer, unlike Ironwood who was going to just delay the inevitable. Ozpin has been trying to find a way. The history between Ozma and Salem makes it impossible for Ozpin himself to reach Salem. Adults as well. But maybe a simple soul...?

But - not so far to just wave away the very terrible situation Humanity is in. It's not good enough to say "Well Ozpin's been stalling and he can't personally stop Salem!" No offense to Ozpin, but darn it, that's not good enough! The characters shouldn't be satisfied with just that.

The host who created the cane had a wife and their two children had silver eyes. We also know that the Light used by SEW comes from the God of Light. The hint is that there's something about Ozma's reincarnation that can permit Light's blessing to be passed to humanity through silver eyes.

There's nothing substantial in the show to support this - or in other media for that matter. There's no indication that one of Ozma's incarnations was the progenitor of silver eyes - no indication that these two children were "the first" of the SEW.

There's no indication that the Go L's blessing carried such baggage. There's no indication Salem treats Ozma as "unfaithful" in that manner, or considers the SEW as such an indication of Ozma loving another. Besides, how would Salem attribute the SEW's existence to Ozma?

IMO, this is a reach.

Ozma has been doing all he can to unite The world and with the saving Salem option, I dont really think its a case of Audience POV vs characters one because talking to Salem was the first thing Ozma tried to do. The god of Light told Ozma the Woman he loved was gone, and Ozma didnt believe him and met with her again, Then he revealed the truth to Salem and tried to reach out to her, only for her to give the "We can replace them with what they could never be" line.

In essence, Ozma has been shown that GOL was right in regards to Salem, he has tried to talk with her, and it Did not work.

I mean, to be fair, that conversation still could have gone a lot better. Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think it's unfair to say Salem was always impossible to reason with.

It's kinda like the events of Arcane. I don't agree that Ozma's attempt to reason with Salem was an effective one, and I don't think "one attempt" is good enough.

However, we have to consider the fact that Salem and Ozma raised a family on earth after reuniting. Ozma had years to spend with Salem to try and turn her from her destructive tendencies - I think that is a bigger indication that Ozma was powerless to fix Salem's poisoned mindset.

Edited by mach56gs on Feb 18th 2022 at 12:07:05 PM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#74963: Feb 18th 2022 at 12:07:37 PM

Ozma's a Hope Bringer who has lost hope. For any real solution to be found, the first step is to help him regain it.

And on the other side of the coin, Salem realizes that she'll never truly be able to win if Ozma does regain hope. Hence why she's so intent on breaking him.

Yes, Ozma is the Hope Bringer and Salem is the Hope Crusher. Part of Ozma's problem is that he's so used to the Awful Truth shattering hope that he's terrified of doing Salem's job for her if he tells the truth. Part of Salem's problem is that she's crushing her own hope in the process of trying to crush his (as her reactions in V6 and V8 indicate).

What we're left with is a Hope Bringer who has secretly lost hope and a Hope Crusher who has secretly crushed her own hope.

I don't really have anything of substance to say, just that I was curious about the size of your posts and this one here when copy-pasted into Word comes out as a fat 5 pages and change. :P

I don't intentionally set out to create long posts, but I'm chatty. And I get carried away. I'm supposed to be learning how to make shorter posts. But then I forget.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#74964: Feb 18th 2022 at 3:00:19 PM

"Except that isnt victory, that is stalling, otherwise ozpin woudnt come to Jinn asking how to kill Salem, he changed objective sure but is a reason he is a depress because he know he is a not win escenario, just staling for all eternity."

No its just a Plan B, and learning to Adapt, finding out you cant solve something one way so solving it another

He just came to realize what Ruby says in volume 7, that Killing Salem and Stopping her were not the same thing.

It would only be stalling If Salem winning was Inevitable, when its not. 'Stalling forever' by definition isnt stalling

"You are overlooking something here: that Salem was able to steal amber power and let her near death(and who have killed her sonner havr Qrow didnt intervined), or that a master, one of Ozpin own men was compromised and the other work behind him does show Ozpin unity is fragile.

Also as Slade of teen titan said "trust take years to build and only a single moment to shatter", Ozpin need a lot of time to build the cities and is not like he cant sprind that from thin air. You cant use Salem using a complicated plan as prove Ozpin was superior since complex plan is both bread and butter."

It didn't take a moment though, it took years and loads of effort on her part to score her victories, and even then it all could have been undone if James just came to his senses after Beacon and so forth

Salem is still going to try doing things, obviously, and she is still intelligent and such. But none of that changes what I've said

The whole reason that she was able to do things like Get Leo on her side was relying on the idea that she was Unstoppable and all this was just stalling, Thats her main tactic, she uses the idea she is unbeatable to actually have a chance at winning

Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 18th 2022 at 6:49:54 AM

Bow to the Prototype
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74965: Feb 18th 2022 at 4:57:21 PM

"He just came to realize what Ruby says in volume 7, that Killing Salem and Stopping her were not the same thing.

It would only be stalling If Salem winning was Inevitable, when its not. 'Stalling forever' by definition isnt stalling "

is stalling because winning by him is imposible, ergo it become a eternal game of keeping himself out and not lose hope, Ruby got right you can stop her but she kinda underated how deadly she is. the great war is a good prove given almost everything point she started and Oz use to relic to finish it.

Is in part why oz is so wear down: Salem cant be stop as you defeat a saturday villian, she leave tons of destruction and grief in their way.

"The whole reason that she was able to do things like Get Leo on her side was relying on the idea that she was Unstoppable and all this was just stalling, Thats her main tactic, she uses the ide "

I for most part she is, defeat her with all the sacrifice so she can just atack later and later and later is the kind of thing sobering someone, specially if the guy that put you there, that weight shatter raven and indeed shatter James.

Also considering Cinder manage to sneak right under Ozpin nose twice(first with Amber and them in beacon) show that all the years Ozpin use on the academies were gone.

Salem being defeatable is one thing but she is not a paper tiger.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74966: Feb 18th 2022 at 5:30:14 PM

Given that Salem is completely immortal sans breaking her millennium record of an Ignored Aesop and sealing her away isn't even a discussed option in the show......

The only way to have Salem being stopped is by divine intervention with the brothers taking away her immortality.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#74967: Feb 19th 2022 at 1:15:57 AM

"is stalling because winning by him is impossible, ergo it become a eternal game of keeping himself out and not lose hope, Ruby got right you can stop her but she kinda underated how deadly she is. the great war is a good prove given almost everything point she started and Oz use to relic to finish it."

That is the entire thing, Salem being Unkillable and not Permanently defeated does not mean he can't win because his goal isn't to Permanently defeat her anymore, Its to foil her Schemes and protect the world. That isn't stalling as stalling would be either preventing the Inevitable or not having an end goal and just preventing the Enemy from winning without any real end goal themselves.

Ozpin does have an endgoal, it's to protect the world. He doesn't just stop Salem from getting the Relics, he makes things in the world better, and makes things even harder for Salem. Ozma and Salem both have larger goals its just that If Salem were to get hers it would be Permanent whilst when Ozma beats her she could try again later. Its not really a stalemate, because its not exactly a Tie. If I were to make a comparison with playing games…Picture 2 people are playing a game, when Player 2 loses they can go ‘Lets play another game!’ which player 1 cant. But Player 1 just keeps winning and each time they win, they make the next game something that is harder for player 2. That is a more fitting allegory for Salem and Ozpins situation IMO.

Frankly a Closer idea to a stalemate or stalling would be Ironwoods plan at the end of Volume 7, Salem would get to ravage the world as she pleases but she doesn't get the Staff and there are still some people left

I don't think Ruby underestimated her, If anything I think she is finally getting on the right track. As Wyld said Ruby was previously thinking like the others, the solution to Salem was finding a way to kill her, and for most of Volume 7 we see her struggling with the Idea she can't be killed in Volume 7, before we get to that scene with Salem.

That she started The great war shows that Salem is a legitimate threat and is highly intelligent, none of them ever doubted that. It is just that what Ruby said was true, that Salem not being killable does not mean she is unstoppable, when she lost with the great war she lost ‘’hard’’ and Oz was able to stack things in his favor

"I for most part she is, defeat her with all the sacrifice so she can just atack later and later and later is the kind of thing sobering someone, specially if the guy that put you there, that weight shatter raven and indeed shatter James.

Also considering Cinder manage to sneak right under Ozpin nose twice(first with Amber and them in beacon) show that all the years Ozpin use on the academies were gone.

Salem being defeatable is one thing but she is not a paper tiger."

I think she is, not in the sense that she isn't a threat, bit that she gives off the image of being worse or more powerful then she is. Wich seems to be her main strategy, even long before her war with Ozma. She used her and Ozmas magic as well as the fact she could regenerate to fool Remnants ancient people into thinking she and Ozma were gods, They were very much powerful beings but Salem used that to make them seem like more then they were.

That idea sort of relies on the idea that whenever Salem makes a move it will take sacrificing everything just to keep , it ‘’Could’’ reach that point, but it isn't guaranteed, James problem was in large part that he assumed that it was already at that point, which is why he made all his ‘tough decisions’, Making rash decisions that have horrible consequences because his mindset was ‘Salem is so unstoppably strong, I have to do this thing to win’ and Ignoring simpler solutions out of assuming they won't work or that Salem is somehow planning them. When said simpler solutions, like Reaching out to Theo, would have foiled everything

Cinder never went right Under Ozpin's nose, people hunting the Maidens for there power is something that has happened for a long time and he had Spies like Qrow around, who managed to rescue Amber and prevent Cinder from getting all the Power, the advantage Cinder had was the Parasite Grimm, do to that being something no one knew about. And then Ozpin knew that Salem had pawns at work at the end of Volume 1. And the whole reason she is able to get into Beacon is thanks to Leo, that doesn't prove the academies were useless, it's another example of the fact Salem uses convincing people she Is unstoppable to actually be able to do damage. It's a brilliant strategy and she does alot of damage with it, but it still shows much of her Ability to do things relies on making it seem like her victory is inevitable and such, When it isn't

Put it this way, she can try another plan later on after losing, and that is indeed highly challenging and a Tough situation. But it is nowhere near hopeless and is still manageable, there are many ways to stop her from getting very Far in her plans.

Bow to the Prototype
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#74968: Feb 19th 2022 at 3:33:37 AM

[up] I think that was a point that was made a couple of times in the show: really, the only reason why the Volumes 1-3 infiltration went off without a hitch was because they had years worth of insider knowledge and a genius Atlesian hacker. It doesn't initially stand out because the focus is on Cinder and Roman, and the fact that they can both be flexible and adapt in the field even hides the fact that it's not even Cinder's plan that's being carried out. It's Salem's plan, and rested very heavily on having two people on her side who had in-depth insider knowledge (Leo of the Academies and Ozpin's group, Watts of Atlesian technology and security systems), but who remained in the background and were not introduced until later volumes (hell, even though Salem had been hinted at since the pilot episode, she herself wasn't introduced until after the Beacon plan had completed).

So, there's a lot of focus on Cinder pulling it off when Cinder's really just the flashy front man for a plan that could never have succeeded without Leo and Watts no matter how flexible and adaptable Cinder is capable of being.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74969: Feb 19th 2022 at 4:18:07 AM

Volumes 1~3 portray Cinder as this unstoppable badass magnificent villainess. Then later volumes reveal that, while still plenty dangerous in her own right, she's far from being the biggest fish.

Though tbh I still Tyrian's the more dangerous of Salem's minions. He's definitely the worst one morally, given his true goals. He doesn't even have the excuse that Salem does of supernatural influence like the dip into that pool of Grimm juice.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Edited by M84 on Feb 19th 2022 at 8:25:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74970: Feb 19th 2022 at 5:50:50 AM

Tyrian is Practically Joker it's a given he'd be the most dangerous villain outside of Salem.

The only eyebrow raiser is that he's completely loyal something Joker and his expies rarely exhibit.

MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#74971: Feb 19th 2022 at 5:55:47 AM

[up][up] Did the Grimm pool actually change Salem's behavior, though? It seems like she was living like a normal person for a long time after it happened, and she only broke bad because she got it into her head that she was superior to Humanity 2 The Legend of Ozma's Gold.

And Jinn outright said that Salem's villainy is the result of her own choices.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74972: Feb 19th 2022 at 5:57:59 AM

[up][up]The loyalty is heavily qualified imho since it's mainly because he wants the world to burn and Salem is the one with the match.

Disgusted, but not surprised
FKJ10 Since: Mar, 2012
#74973: Feb 19th 2022 at 6:19:22 AM

[up][up] The series is very unambiguous in framing Salem as the villain in the lost fable

Her reaction to the God of Darkness snapping her army out of existence was "I'll f'n do it again" till she realized the dark God snapped all of humanity.

Jinn stating Salem has a case of Never My Fault

Jinn: She cursed the Gods. She cursed the universe. She cursed everything, everything but herself. She wandered the face of the planet, awaiting a death that would never come...

But Jinn also says her desire for destruction came from the Grimm pool

Jinn: Instead, it created a being of infinite life with a desire for pure destruction.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#74974: Feb 19th 2022 at 6:47:00 AM

I'm not really big on the idea that Salem needs to learn about the value of life and death, because the people who gave her that punishment seem both like Complete Monsters and also full of shit.

Seriously, are we supposed to believe that the Brothers actually have something valuable to teach Salem about life? Didn't they kill everyone on earth just because a bunch of humans attacked them? Didn't the Brother of Destruction flagrantly bring Ozma back to life when he thought that Salem came to him for help first? Didn't the Brother of Creation keep Ozma from going to the afterlife so he could stay and be Salem's minder? Didn't their decision to keep Salem alive in general cause untold misery for countless people?

For their lesson to hold any weight, you'd think they'd have the moral high ground somewhere and they do not.

The lesson Salem has to learn is simply what the Brothers consider to be the value of life and death, and the show hasn't convinced me that their assessment of those things is worth jack.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 19th 2022 at 2:48:40 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#74975: Feb 19th 2022 at 6:50:15 AM

Eh, at least the Brother Gods didn't resort to the Kill Em All approach until after Salem riled up humanity to actually attack them first.

Seems pretty tame compared to a vengeful deity unleashing a flood in response to seeing humanity just generally going to shit.

It didn't help that, as already mentioned, Salem was going to keep riling up humanity to attack them when she thought the Gods only destroyed the army.

The real lesson Salem needs to learn is to stop seeing herself as the victim all the time. Whatever the Gods did to her and whatever she lost...all of that kind of stops being an excuse after a certain point. And Salem crossed that point a long time ago.

Edited by M84 on Feb 19th 2022 at 10:54:13 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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