Yeah, I wouldn't put it past the two Gods to start moving those goalposts.
So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my TumblrI doubt Tyrian will be disappointed by Salem's reason for wanting to end the world.
The scorpion has been consistently shown to be the only character that truly understands what's going on in this world while being very genre savy recently in v7.
He probably knows that Salem's plans is a suicide attempt mixed with taking the world with her and Tyrian, misanthropic nihilist that he is, loves it even more.
I'd only see Tyrian betraying Salem if she does learn her lesson on the value of life and pull a face turn.
But even then I see Tryian being killed by Qrow next volume or Mercury if the scorpion doesn't kill the kid himself.
Edited by FKJ10 on Jan 19th 2022 at 6:50:37 AM
Destruction as art, destruction as a way of life, is what Tyrian is about. He doesn't want to be the customer sitting in the The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe watching the final performance, he wants to be the one giving the final performance. That's what it means to him. He worships Salem because that's what he thinks she embodies; in reality, she's the embodiment of self-destruction — which is very different, and much more mundane to someone like him.
No, it doesn't mean that. It just means that, since Tyrian is the Scorpion from that tale, and the point of that tale is that a scorpion cannot deny its true nature, it suggests that Tyrian will eventually turn on Salem. And, since he's Qrow's counterpoint, the parallel would be because (like Qrow) he would discover the person he's given his heart and soul to actually doesn't have the end-game he thought she had.
He's not going to get killed in the next volume. Volume 9 is the last volume of the Atlas Arc and is a "detour" on the way to the Vacuo Arc. The Vacuo Arc isn't going to start until Volume 10.
It may be that Qrow gets to kill Tyrian in the Vacuo Arc, but that'll probably be the latter stages of the Arc, so it may not happen in Volume 10 either. Perhaps Volume 11-12.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
To be fair, she didn't see Hazel or Emerald's betrayal coming even though the signs they would were more obvious (kinda hard to keep your troops under control when either their sister was killed by the forces you control or are just scared shitless of you and you spend your time torturing her waifu respectively)
So a minor thing that kinda bothered me, but we never got to see what Ozma's emblem is. Yes we have Ozpin and Oscar, but just because they are his incarnations doesn't mean they all have to share the same emblem as they are their own person as well, which is why I also didn't like that Oscar simply has the same emblem but a shade lighter.
So, if they ever do decide to give him one, I believe the most fitting would be the ouroboros, as it symbolizes the cycle of life, death, and rebirth, which is the whole deal with his curse. Not only that, but it would also fit with the clock gear symbol of Ozpin and Oscar, since clocks also symbolize life and death.
Simple Ozpin's emblem might as well be Ozma's.
Because out of universe the two souls aspect was never hinted at in V1-3. So we had no reason to assume there were two guys in Ozpin's body at the time
In universe the man formerly known as Ozpin had fully assimilated with Ozma by that point so same emblem.
Edited by FKJ10 on Jan 21st 2022 at 4:59:58 AM
For a villain like Salem, I don't think the important thing is whether they see a betrayal coming. What matters is whether that betrayal means something to them.
She didn't see Hazel, Emerald or Neo's betrayals coming, but they also didn't mean anything to her. The only thing she cared about was the Relic, but she didn't care about the individuals themselves.
So, the question is... would she care about Tyrian betraying her? If we go all-in for the Qrow comparison then, yes, she would care — because Ozpin had a fullblown mental breakdown when Qrow turned on him. However, in Ozpin's case, Qrow was the straw that broke the camel's back. So, that's would I would expect from Tyrian as well — if he ever turns on her, it'll be the culmination events that have turned against her, and not a stand-alone betrayal (the way Hazel, Emerald and Neo effectively were).
That doesn't mean I think she definitely will care. I'm in two minds about that. I think it's clear from Volume 6 that she won't care if Cinder betrays her either. But she does treat Tyrian differently — he's like a pet to her. That doesn't tell me if she will care should he ever betray her, so the jury's still out.
I have to admit that I assumed Ozma's emblem was the crown and swirl on his armour — in particular, the swirl, which is on all his clothing, the staff and even the cane.
That would make Ozma like Salem: both of them have only continued to use one element (and the full element may be connected to the families they come from). For Salem, that element is the crystal (or, as I tend to think of it, the prism). For Ozma, that element is the swirl, which is on all of his clothing and his staff (the crown only appears on his breastplate and cloak). That swirl has been carried forward to this day in his cane (and however that cane is related to the staff — it either tranforms into the staff or creates a Hammerspace from which the staff can be pulled).
The other thing that seems to have sneaked down the reincarnations — although it's not visible on every one — is a cross motif appearing somewhere in their lives. It's in the first incarnation's clothing, Ozpin wears it as a broach at his throat, and Oscar has one between his shoulder blades. I think this is why Qrow and Leo have a cross motif built into their design as well (because Ozpin did, not necessarily because they know why Ozpin did).
Note: this only applies to his reincarnations. That's because it seems to have something to do with the God of Light, whose altar in Jinn's vision also had the cross. So, the cross is a sign of his reincarnation, which is the doing of the God of Light.
Ozpin's personal motif is the gear. Oscar's new, and has a lot on his plate, so I think he probably hasn't had a chance to think about his own personal motif yet and is just using what he's inherited (either consciously or unconsciously — I doubt the cross or the increase in the colour green was conscious, but he knows why he's carrying the cane).
Yes, it was. In the third episode of the show, the kids comment on Ozpin seeming like he's not even there when he gives the welcome speech, and the episode ends after Ruby and Yang introduce themselves to Blake and learn she's reading a book about a man with two souls.
While it doesn't sound like much when I word it that way years after the fact, what I'm saying is that a lot of fans immediately jumped to the conclusion that Ozpin is going to be the show's man with two souls as soon as that episode had been watched (I was one of them, and I was definitely not alone — it was a common enough theory).
Then episode 10 happened, which gave us Ozpin's "more mistakes" line, which kicked the immortality theory into high gear — whether fans liked the two-souls theory or not, plenty were on board with him having some form of immortality or unnatural longevity.
Volume 2 really kicked off the dialogue hinting at Ozpin's age, but the introduction of the Maidens in Volume 3 is what enabled the fans of the two-souls theory to find a mechanism by which he could have two souls, especially given that most fans (regardless of what they thought about the two-souls theory) spotted both the "old wizard" connection and the fact that Ozpin seemed very subdued by the consequences of Pyrrha merging with another soul. There were fans who previously weren't on board with the two-souls theory who jumped on board after the Pyrrha chat down in the vault because of this. As a result, the moment Oscar was introduced in the first episode of Volume 4, there were fans who suspected he might wind up with Ozpin in his head — Oscar didn't even have a speaking role in that episode. note
So, while the fandom may not have been using the language we use now ("reincarnation"), the theory that Ozpin may have some form of immortality and two souls has been around since Volume 1, with the immortality aspect being bolstered from Volume 2, and the two-souls angle being bolstered from Volume 3.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 22nd 2022 at 5:34:29 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.Back in December, I posted on the project clean-up thread about a bunch of video examples that are either misuse or spoilerific, and listed them for feedback before I take them to the video moderation thread for axing or clean-up. I didn't get any feedback, so I'm posting a last call here.
I'm sending 7 videos to be removed and I'm sending a further 7 videos for clean up (name, and/or description, and/or thumbnail).
So, here's the link
to my post. Feedback would be appreciated, but if I still haven't heard anything by next weekend, I'm going to go ahead and take them to the moderation thread.
Penny's death is considered suicide glorification? Alright, what other Unfortunate Implications people claim resulted from V8. All I saw was Character Assassination videos for Ironwood being divisive, and people upset Penny didn't live, what gives?
Yeah, that one I've seen brought up a lot, and I'm inclined to agree, as I really didn't like her death in V8. I also know people, particularly in fanfiction circles and on Spacebattle forums, who agree that Penny's death has some very, very discomforting vibes to it as a result of the whole suicide aspect.
Was that intentional on RT's part? No, I don't think that was intentional in the slightest, but like it or not, it's there.
Some extent is intentional given the big warning they had at the beginning.
Unless that's just them being aware of how much of a Downer Ending the volume will be.
Aside of the quality of penny death, saying is suicide glorifcation is a little bit to much, is much glorification as the whole "solder stay behind to make time for friend to escape" in general, Penny die so cinder dosent get the maiden power in her claws.
I feel the uncomfortable aspect is mostly is whole her death is play out, specially the whole Penny and winter talked in the afterlive or whatever it was that.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Yeah, I'd say that Pyrrha had more of a "suicide glorification" thing going with her, especially if you interpret her last stand against Cinder as specifically because she was robbed of her destiny and now felt without purpose.
Since everyone else just agreed that Pyrrha was never gonna win the fight and that she knew it.
RE: Pyrrha and Penny
I haven't posted here in a while, gosh, hope everyone is doing well and best wishes for 2022!
RWBY has a bit of an awkward problem with killing young kids and trying to frame it in a noble light after-the-fact. It's not that RWBY isn't aware of this problematic framing - Back in Volume 2 we had Glynda comment about not wanting these poor kids that were having a food-fight possibly ending up as, well, child soldiers. Pyrrha's death in context of Volume 3 is excellent: tragic and gut-wrenching. So is Penny and her conflict with destiny, her arc with Winter, and her final words with her father.
I think a lot of the hot air regarding this concept is that, while the writers have tried to address it, they do it in a manner that people object to. Penny dies, but immediately after her death and the clear horror and tragedy, she appears, smiling, in a white void, to tell Winter not to feel so bad about her death because Winter was her friend or somethin' like that.
Ok, I'm being a bit reductive, but that scene doesn't rub well with me, and with others. It feels too positive and too much of the writers speaking through Penny to tell Winter (the viewers) not to feel so bad. Very much like how the RHW (the writers) tried to fix Jaune's attitude (the viewers).
Whether you buy it or not, totally up to you. Art is subjective. But personally:
I think RWBY tries to be Hope Punk, but has had a mixed track record on giving us the fundamental hope for the future in spite of the desperate situation. I get the quagmire or fundamental difficulty of trying to balance Hope Punk - too much "hope", and people would call it childish or too easy. On the other hand, too much "Punk" and you end up unattached and cynical.
RWBY tries to be hopeful and positive in spite of great tragedy and a bleak future, but the "hopeful and positive" moments aren't the "nuggets of gold" that we expect them to be. Simply put, the "Hope" aspect of RWBY is unconvincing. Penny appearing in a white void, headed to the afterlife, smiling and at peace with her decisions... feels forced and asks you to just be happy that Penny is in Go L-afterlife with her 32 Rubys. Do you have enough suspension of disbelief to truly be satisfied with such a conclusion?
I dunno, for me, it feels too happy with a situation that... isn't really that happy. I consider it a delusion or a coping mechanism, not a genuine moment of hope in a sea of sorrow. Which is a problem when the story is trying to be "Hope Punk" - the point is that you search for inner strength and hope in dark and difficult situations. It's earned, not just pulled out of thin air as some sort of retcon or backpedaling because a tragic character death might have accidentally pushed the viewer over the edge and into complete surrender.
Penny's conclusion is less of a moment of hope and more of "don't cry watchers, this is a happy ending". But Hope =/= Happiness. Happiness and satisfaction can come at the end of this story, when the characters finally triumph over the overwhelming odds. For it to randomly show up in the middle of the show, immediately after one of its more darker moments - in the middle of the struggle, only gives the story tonal discord.
Similar case for Pyrrha. I can go on about the statute scene, you can probably go back a couple hundred pages here and see me rant about that.
Anyways, disclaimer: RWBY is a good show. But following the show for so long I do feel this problem starting to creep up on it. It's not a finished product, so this "problem" is still fluid, and might turn into a strong point of RWBY if it finally takes the time to address this problem head-on. The writers clearly have the ability to tear away at a character's naivety and innocence, to challenge the characters on their idealistic thinking. Volume 3 was a great example of that, and it showed up well in Volume 8 as well: Ruby had a great moment in the latest Volume with Yang, discussing the fate of their mother. I would like that to be applied to Penny and Pyrrha's death more consistently than what they've done so far.
EDIT: "Everyone agreed" to interpret art in one way is a pretty big claim. Of course a lot of people claim to know what Pyrrha was thinking at the time, but frankly, I disagree with the masses. I think, as Jaune said in V6, Pyrrha knew that she could die, but also felt as though there was a chance. I think it adds to Volume 3: that it's especially tragic that Pyrrha was so deluded and/or desperate, that she actually thought she could stand a chance against Cinder. It also makes her decision to try and stop Cinder more believable, if we take into account how prideful and desperate Pyrrha was at the time.
Edited by mach56gs on Jan 24th 2022 at 12:46:42 PM
- Volume 1 ends with "Queen has Pawns" and Cinder's stinger.
- Volume 2 ends with Adam's (proper) debut.
- Volume 3 ends with Salem's debut.
- Volume 4 ends with Lionheart being revealed to be the traitor.
- Volume 5 ends with a lingering shot of the Relic which served to cause tension with the group.
- Volume 6 ends with the Atlas Army.
- Volume 7 ends with Salem's army.
- Volume 8 ends with Atlas getting destroyed.
Well, some of those things aren't necessarily depressing and defeating as is death and thematic crisis. Introducing drama or tension can be used to create excitement within fans for the future. I think those moments of difficulty are ok. Such tension and difficult is good and crucial for "Hope Punk", and for most stories.
To me, the problem is when you get to individuals and individual fans, stories, etc. It's still not a systemic issue that happens which either character either.
But it happens enough to effect most people's entire perception of the story, as one can see during this recent discussion. It especially effects fans of particular characters who got this extremely short stick (i.e. Penny + Pyrrha fans, Clover fans, etc).
Another example I can bring to issue is Jaune. What does a fan of his character expect of him in the future? Is there any expectation he'll have some victorious moment in the Sun?
Compare that to Nora and her rad thunder-scars. Even though Nora is a much less popular and story-integral character, I still think people can more easily anticipate Nora doing something cool in the future - being a walking tesla coil and all. Nora still struggles, she's still a hope-punk character, but fans are confident that her perseverance will be rewarded in the end... as compared to, some would say: Penny or Pyrrha.
But I think I'm going on a tangent: I'm now talking about what characters have to do in the future. Pyrrha and Penny are special because the problems result from their demises and the entirety of their characters, and the conclusions the writers ask us to draw, and how they try and justify their logic. This is where such disappointing conclusions do the most noticeable damage to the thematic + tonal core of RWBY.
All in all, this does effect the fan's anticipation of what to expect in the future. What to expect from their favorite characters, what to expect from the course of the story. Hope Punk is supposed to ensure that people are excited for the future, even if the road is bleak and dreary. As the post above illustrated: RWBY does the bleak great!
But when it is supposed to preserve those motes of hope and "hype" for future battles and the ultimate triumph of our main characters, it's a mixed record - particularly because of how it wraps up and concludes character arcs and their stories.
Edited by mach56gs on Jan 25th 2022 at 11:20:54 AM

Only to ironically have the Gods be like "no thanks" because the condition to ending humanity was that if they were still making demands even with their infighting, then they'd kill them. However, if the demand is "kill us, please", the Gods would be like "... You know, we're not gonna give you what you wish" or some sort of ironic reverse psychology.