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SilentLyfe Since: Apr, 2020
#69701: Jan 15th 2021 at 4:59:47 PM

Does anyone wonder whether Salem's immortality protects her from mental attacks as well as physical. Say for some reason she is hit by Yatsuhashi's Semblance, will her immortality restore her memory or not? Or what about if she is killed while her memory is wiped. Upon reviving, then will it be restored?

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#69702: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:07:54 PM

[up]Good question. She does seem to regenerate her brain and memories with it at no problem at least.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Ohmknight _(o)_ from the End Since: Jul, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
_(o)_
#69703: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:09:46 PM

[up]I would theorize that if Salem got hit with his semblance, Salem would lose her memories until she dies and is then restored.

Edited by Ohmknight on Jan 15th 2021 at 9:09:57 PM

The Final Name
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#69704: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:13:27 PM

Speaking of creative solutions, I've had one. Weiss can create ice constructs right? What would happen if she made a giant magnifying lens for Ruby to aim her Silver Eyes at? Would that amplify them?

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69705: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:17:57 PM

That actually seems like a creative way of finally stopping Salem. Have Yatsuhashi's Semblance erase her memory of everything before meeting Ozma, and trick her into thinking they were just freeing her from the tower. After that, all they have to do is make sure she doesn't die so she doesn't regain her memory. And provided they actually keep her on the right path this time, they may be able to cause Amnesiac Dissonance.

Obviously they're not gonna do that since most people probably wouldn't like that ending, but it's interesting to think What If?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Ohmknight _(o)_ from the End Since: Jul, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
_(o)_
#69706: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:21:28 PM

[up]Yeah, while that ending is logical and isn't out of nowhere, It isn't all that satisfying. It will just make me say, "wait, that's it?"

The Final Name
SilentLyfe Since: Apr, 2020
#69707: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:30:22 PM

Can Yatsu even do that? She has thousands of years worth of memories. Would he not reach his limit long before he can make a dent in her memory?

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69708: Jan 15th 2021 at 5:33:37 PM

Maybe if boosted by both Jaune and Gillian's Semblances he could. Jaune is pretty much a battery for Semblances, and Gillian can drain Aura from other people including herself, and Gillian did aid Yatsu's Semblance when used on Jax which pretty much left him a vegetable.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#69709: Jan 15th 2021 at 8:20:39 PM

Given what transpired with Whitley when he secretly summoned Klein to help his sister's group in "War", do you think he has a Hidden Heart of Gold?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Ohmknight _(o)_ from the End Since: Jul, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
_(o)_
#69710: Jan 15th 2021 at 9:52:14 PM

[up]I think that fits. I don't know.

The Final Name
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#69711: Jan 15th 2021 at 10:01:00 PM

Granted, that plan to erase require yat to be able to be close to salem without being turn into paste by salem magic.

is the issue of alot of plan: it require salem to be there as static object.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69712: Jan 16th 2021 at 6:45:48 AM

After what was said about the Reds and Blues in Death Battle, I can't believe I'm saying this, but they could probably take at least pre-Volume 4 Team RWBY down in a fight.

Even adding JNPR or JNOR.

  • Silver eyes won't work
  • Ruby beats Church in a sniping duel, granted, but she can't hit with the same amount of force that the Reds and Blues have survived
  • Nora, Yang, and Weiss are the only ones who would really pose a threat, and maybe Oscar if and when he starts using his magic more
  • Even if you threw Penny in Church and Tex are AI who regularly hijack robotic bodies

Speaking of whom, I can't help but wonder if "Oscar" was added to the team to preserve the name "Team JuNiOR" retroactively.

Edited by FOFD on Jan 16th 2021 at 7:08:06 AM

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#69713: Jan 16th 2021 at 11:52:27 AM

I would say Pre-Volume 6 at least, since Volume 5 showed that they were a little rusty with their fighting (sans Blake), with Volume 6 pushing them to their absolute limits.

Solitas!RWBY would have a mostly even matchup, though Solitas!JNPR might be rough around some edges.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#69714: Jan 16th 2021 at 11:54:29 AM

All I can say is that either Yang or Nora will end up punching Griff in the dick. [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#69715: Jan 16th 2021 at 1:20:04 PM

Wasn't Salem tainted by the Pools of Destruction when she fell into them?

She was wrong. This force of pure destruction could not destroy a being of infinite life. Instead, it created a being of infinite life with a desire for pure destruction.

Even if she had her memories erased, I get the impression she would lean towards wanting to conquer and kill everything eventually no matter what, because of the Pools' influence.

Edited by GNinja on Jan 16th 2021 at 9:23:07 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69716: Jan 16th 2021 at 2:37:54 PM

Its really not clear how literally were supposed to take that, as its a bit of an Informed Attribute, we know at one point she was just hanging around in the Forrest for a long time, and even after that her goal was Creating a Kingdom she and Ozma ruled over like Gods 'Guiding' humanity, the end goal being sort of the opposite of destruction, Sense it involved a 'Peaceful' new world order. The only time she's ever actually had a big goal of destruction is afterwards, and even that dosent seem to have much to do with her curse.

Edited by Snoketrope on Jan 16th 2021 at 2:38:52 AM

Bow to the Prototype
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69717: Jan 16th 2021 at 3:32:55 PM

Cross post from the RVB thread:
... Well, I think Tucker, Sarge, Lopez, and maybe Donut could stand a chance. Tex is always doomed to fail, Church can't shoot for shit, Simmons freezes up in front of girls, Grif can shoot but isn't that great at melee, and Caboose is only a good shot if led to think they're his teammates or if he's severely pissed off.

That's if only counting the ones in the Death Battle. If counting the others, Wash and Carolina could probably stand a chance, but Kai isn't that good a fighter really.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#69718: Jan 16th 2021 at 4:33:28 PM

So, regarding Cinder's backstory, she went from a slave to a murderous henchwoman for Salem. Does this count as From Nobody to Nightmare?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69719: Jan 16th 2021 at 6:01:55 PM

Yes

If I were to, Pitch in or suggest any tropes sense you seem to be interested in it, Maybe use Freudian Excuse, I Just Want to Be Free, Ambiguous Disorder(For the hints she has some form of PTSD) or Update the Evil Counterpart entry for her and Ruby because her past gives a pretty clear parralel with them, do to Cinder having also admired Huntsman and Huntresses and Wanted to be a Huntress herself, but for Differant reasons.

Anyway....Some minor things I would have changed, largely for the atlas Arc that I've thought of

Id have them explore the Atlas City a bit more in Volume 7, letting us get a better glimpse at what it's generally like day to day at Atlas. To give a Crapsaccerine World vibe to it.

I would have had us see Blake and Yangs 'Not-A-Date' from Volume 7, It would give some good Ship Tease moments, while simultaneously it would give us the Oppurtunity perhaps for Blake to briefly see or Discuss some of the issues in Atlas. Given she's part of a Group actively oppressed there.

And in more of a Personal note, I would have taken inspiration from Rapture from Bioshock with Atlas design, I think it would fit, being a Twisted 'Utopia' Based on American Ultra capitalist imagery.

Also, ever notice how RWBY Is kinda structured Simmular to red vs blue in alot of ways?

In the Basics, both were Lighthearted sorts of Stories that went through huge amounts of Cerberus Syndrome later on, as they discover the conflict they think they're in is actually part of a Much Larger conflcit.

In both cases the Stories have a Recurring theme of 'Keep moving forward' and the events of the Story were started by the Big Bad attempting to bring back there dead lover

Both shows 6th season is where we discover the true nature of the Stories main conflict(The whole simulation with RVB, and Volume 6 is where we got the Lost Fable).

Both of these 7th season has an ally pull a Face–Heel Turn by shooting one of the Protagonists.

Both have a Plot point of Convincing a Rebel leader that a General associated with white isn't actually some power hungry despot and getting both of them to work together and Foil the villains plot of Dividing everyone(....Ended better in RVB)

I was sort of thinking if it would be logical to speculate on? Obviously it wouldnt be 1-1, but more loose plot threads?

I was thinking about season 10....With There being a Hunt for a Villain only for them to see how sad and broken said villain is at there core leaving them before the Villain just kills themself...Maybe an End for Cinder? Volume 10 would be around the Vacuo arc, meaning we could get Merc, maybe have one last scene where Merc and Em confront her before....ya know.

Edited by Snoketrope on Jan 17th 2021 at 5:06:48 AM

Bow to the Prototype
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#69720: Jan 17th 2021 at 5:30:55 AM

Speaking of whom, I can't help but wonder if "Oscar" was added to the team to preserve the name "Team Ju Ni OR" retroactively.

Well, that's certainly a thought, but it doesn't solve the problem Ren pointed out that it doesn't match the colour rule.

I know the fandom and CRWBY are unofficially calling them Team ORNJ, but I absolutely loathe that name. It makes Oscar the team leader, which displaces Jaune. Not only is that unfair to Jaune, it's putting Ozpin into a leadership position when I don't think he should be. Plus, it doesn't match the order the team was placed in for the Volume 7 opening credits (Jaune Arc, Lie Ren, Oscar Pine and Nora Valkyrie).

The Volume 7 opening credits gives us ALPN, (Alpine) which is a shade of green, leaves Jaune in charge and would mean that Jaune, Nora and Ren will have been part of three teams with a green colour name (Juniper, Ranger and Alpine).

When you look up the colour alpine green to see what it looks like, it's the colour of part of Oscar's jacket. Ozma's tunic is a shade that has been called Alpine Green, but it's more normally called Evergreen.

Oscar's jacket has three shades of green, two in the main coat and one for the collar and matching straps at his wrist. The dominant colour appears to be Pine Green, the darker patches appear to be Alpine Green, and the collar and straps appear to be Dark Forest Green.

Anyway, between evergreen, alpine green, pine green and dark forest green, I probably don't need to point out the theme here. (Ozpin seems to fall in the 'Forest Green' colour palette, too — his suit colour seems to be the darkest shade of the Forest Green palette, which is called Midnight Moss[1] and his jumper is at the lighter end).

[1] Ozpin's suit is a nightmare to pin down in terms of what colour it is and how much green is actually in the different parts. Sometimes, his suit looks like a very obvious green, sometimes it looks black. Sometimes his jacket looks black while his waistcoat and trousers look green. Sometimes his jacket looks green while his waistcoat looks black. The very limited Maya images we have of him are even worse because they make his suit look completely black (green jumper and waistcoat only). So, I think his suit colour is very debatable, and possibly not even consistent. Other near-black green candidates are: Deep Fir, Black Forest Green and Hunter Green.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 17th 2021 at 3:25:46 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#69721: Jan 17th 2021 at 10:09:48 AM

Apologies for the double-post, but it's a different topic. Tropes.

Just an aside: RWBY isn't a Cerebus Syndrome show. Its increasingly dark themes were intended from the beginning. A show is only a Cerebus trope if the darkness wasn't originally intended, but got built into the show later on. Red vs. Blue is a Cerebus example, but RWBY is not.

Regarding tropes for Cinder's backstory:

  • From Nobody to Nightmare - Already on her page. Entry might need improving, however.
  • Freudian Excuse - Yes, I'm fine with his being added, but remember that Freudian Excuse isn't really about why a villain is the way they are, it's an event that occurred in childhood which explains why they are the way they are and why they cannot change from that. People tend to forget the full context that's required: so the entry needs to explain what the childhood trauma is, why it defines her villainy and why she can't change who she is.
  • I Just Want to Be Free - This is at least her original motive, although we don't know if it's her only motive now. This could be added to her page.
  • Ambiguous Disorder (PTSD) — No. The main purpose of the flashbacking is to make it clear to the audience that the link between the two incidents is intentional and that, if Salem keeps pushing this, Cinder will rebel against her like she did against Madame. This trope is misused enough. One incident does not this trope make, especially given the narrative importance of making the audience link the two.

This leaves Evil Counterpart (Ruby).

I'm sorry but this is complete shoehorning and shouldn't be on her page at all. It's always been shoehorning, but the more we learn about Cinder, the clearer this becomes. Just look at the entry. Firstly, it tries to make this trope relevant by creating contrasts between Ruby and Cinder — but that isn't the trope anyway, it's supposed to be about their similarities, not their differences. It's the trope that requires Not So Different as a plot point to highlight exactly why the two are not as similar as they seem. So, the entry's already wrong on that basis. But, if you need more, just look at all the shoehorning and Speculative Troping that's gone into it:

  • Ruby is shoehorned into having silver accents that don't exist just to counter Cinder's gold. Ruby has silver eyes. That's it. The closest counter would be claiming Ruby is mostly black with red accents while Cinder's mostly red with black accepts, and we all know why it's wrong to describe Ruby that way.
  • Infiltration versus prodigy is a massive shoehorn. Cinder's only counterpart here is Jaune: two people who got into school via forged transcripts, one for villainous reasons, the other for heroic reasons.
  • Favouring one weapon versus versatility. Ruby is not unique among the main cast for relying exclusively on her weapon of choice, and we later learn that Theodore and Rumpole even criticise Beacon for not forcing variable fighting styles on its students more than it does. While Yang and Ozpin single out Ruby for this in Volume 5, it's already much clearer by then that Cinder's not a counterpart to Ruby and the only thing Cinder's ever singled out for in the show is using glass.
  • Changing the world: this was clearly written when people were using Speculative Troping to guess at Cinder's motives while assuming she was the Big Bad. We now know for certain that this is wrong.
  • Natural powers versus stolen powers: the show never covers this, so it's not in effect. What is in effect is that Cinder's theft of the power counters the way the power naturally passes, which means Cinder's biggest counterpart here are Pyrrha (V3) and Penny (V7 uses her to show us the very first example of natural power transfer while V8 has Ace-Ops try to portray it as power theft — compare that to the only Maiden who has stolen power, Cinder, who goes on to use V8 to constantly compare herself to Penny). There is one other, but see next bullet point.
  • Ruby's power being Cinder's power's crippling weakness. The entry implies the reason for this is Ruby's power versus Maiden power. We know that's wrong. The problem is the Grimm inside Cinder. There is a counterpart to Cinder, both in terms of killing a Maiden to become one and turning oneself into a monster to gain power... and that's Raven, and V5 hammers us with that comparison, which is why Raven's in Cinder's section under the Foil trope.

All the show has done is give Cinder a hate-boner for Ruby, but there's nothing from Ruby's side to either counter it, foil it or meet it half-way. Ruby still doesn't even know she injured Cinder, the heroes still don't know how she stole the first half of Amber's power, and they don't even know that Cinder has any kind of obsession with Ruby at all. They've barely discussed connecting the dots between Ruby's power and Cinder's arm, never mind the parasite Grimm, Cinder's injuries and the obsession.

Now that we have the Insecure Protagonist, Arrogant Antagonist trope, and Ruby and Cinder's dynamic has already been troped under that, I think we need to remove the Evil Counterpart entry. IPAA is clearly the right Foil trope to be using.

Edited to add: Sorry, that turned into a rant. I'm not sure where that came from. I'm going to blame the Ambiguous Disorder trope. The existence of the Ambiguous X tropes does irritate me: there's almost no reason to use them (there's usually a better trope out there) and they're often magnets for misuse to trope anything that isn't instantly explainable.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 17th 2021 at 11:53:32 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69722: Jan 17th 2021 at 11:07:13 AM

I wasn't merely talking about the scene with Salem. The suggestion was also based on the very first scene of the Volume where we not only see Cinder flashbacking to a different part of her past and Subconsosuly making the same motions as then. But I'm fine with it, just a suggestion.

Good Lord have I always thought that Entry was stretching to hell and back to create Simmularities. I kinda feel like the main reason it's there is, expectation really. People kind of assume that Cinder would be some form of foil or Evil Counterpart to Ruby, cause it makes sense for her to be. But when you look at it, and she doesn't really have much parralels. Before this Volume, the closest thing she had was that WTCH is in part meant to parralel / contrast the members of RWBY with her spot being Rubies parralel(Though Funnily enough the rest of WTCH have way better comparisons / Contrasts then Cinder with Ruby)

All that being said, I could maybe see it staying but being edited with her past in mind, as her past gives us one legitimate Parralel between them with them both having looked up too and wanted to be part of the Huntsmen and Huntresses as children, for different reasons. Ruby wanting to help people and Cinder wanting to be Strong and wanting Freedom from her restrictive life.

But by all means, I'm fine if someone were to just chop that....Hilariously, we've gotten way more stuff hinting at her being a Foil or Evil Counterpart to either Jaune or Oscar now(Though I personally think it's a bit too early to add now).

EDIT:I now see there's a differant Foil trope that Cinder and Ruby have been put under. Then yes, I agree, chop the entry to bits.

Edited by Snoketrope on Jan 17th 2021 at 11:15:33 AM

Bow to the Prototype
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#69723: Jan 17th 2021 at 1:12:50 PM

... Why does this show invite such rampant mistroping or Examples As Thesis?

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69724: Jan 17th 2021 at 1:24:12 PM

I think this show is just popular among tropers and such

There is kind of a fandom wide issue of Mischaracterization that certainly adds to that as well

Bow to the Prototype
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#69725: Jan 17th 2021 at 1:59:16 PM

RWBY’s fans incessant need to add as many tropes as they can literally caused a rule to be added for Death Battles, that you can only add tropes that are relative to the episode itself.


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