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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#69627: Jan 11th 2021 at 8:44:48 PM

@Wyldchild Yes! It was definitely a review. You broke down everything in the finale.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#69628: Jan 11th 2021 at 8:47:36 PM

"She hasn't lost her power, however. "

Sure, but she lost what wanted in power: that sense of being superior, of being like stemother, ruby silver eye power strip her of all pretention and reveal the same cinder: and overgrow child that have just kill rhodes and is try to blunt her way out.

If anything I find her triying to find the glass slipper.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#69629: Jan 12th 2021 at 6:19:05 AM

I don't think Ruby is an eligible female. I think her silver-eyes powers mean she can't take the Maiden power. Since there are five girls in the main cast, that would mean four Maidens + one Silver-Eyed Warrior.

I don't know what reason we've been given to think this? I mean, if a robot can be a Maiden, I doubt there are any restrictions beyond what we've been told. In particular, I would guess that if any of the main characters are going to be Maidens, the literal daughter of Summer will be one of them. Same for the sister of Winter, which is why I think it's much, much less likely after the V7 finale, since it would mean the death of Penny. I do think, though, that it will be all four or none.

If it is "none," I expect there'll be some kind of one-to-one pairing of them with the Maidens, since, again, we have the daughter of Summer, the sister of Winter, and the daughter of the Spring Maiden. The odd one out would then be Blake, who has no real connection to either fall or Cinder. If they are being paired off with maidens, rather than becoming maidens (so eligibility wouldn't be a concern), it feels like Jaune would be a better fit, but the show is called RWBY. Maybe Ilia kills Cinder? Or Cinder kills Ilia. I know Blake is supposed to scream this volume; that would do it. And there's probably going to be some significance to whatever Ghira was calling Ilia about.

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69630: Jan 12th 2021 at 11:58:41 AM

@Psyga

After Midnight itself I think pulling Death by Flashback in this instance would be...Well a Waste really

Her backstory and how it Recontextualizes alot of her charachter, gives Cinder alot of....Well Interesting stuff, the bits of how she's spent her whole life lacking Control, how she's traded one Abuser for another.

And in Addition to that. There's still a good deal of things on her past that haven't been answered yet, or Questions that her past itself has raised, like what the hell the deal with that 'Orphanage' was.

She Dosent have to go through a Redemption Arc, but it would be a bit of a Waste to just go 'And then she died' before developing her some more.

Bow to the Prototype
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#69631: Jan 12th 2021 at 12:12:54 PM

[up] It wouldn't be far off from what other RWBY characters got.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69632: Jan 12th 2021 at 12:30:22 PM

What do you mean? That would be very far Off from anything the show has actually done with any of its charachters so far.

And no, just to say it quickly, It wouldn't be like what happned with Adam, at all. Adams arc had involved refusing to change or Stop and it ends up destroying his life, Narratively it makes sense for him to die, and his Death comes as a Result of his Refusal to stop and leave like Blake and Yang kept offering and telling him to do.

Bow to the Prototype
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69633: Jan 12th 2021 at 1:40:14 PM

Goddammit Barb!

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#69634: Jan 12th 2021 at 1:58:41 PM

Geez, Rebel, you don't have to get so... Yangry about it.

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69635: Jan 12th 2021 at 2:19:46 PM

[up] [twitchy eye]

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#69636: Jan 12th 2021 at 2:32:50 PM

Eye see some red in your eyes. Be careful not to ignite yourself on fire.

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#69637: Jan 12th 2021 at 2:49:55 PM

One thing I noticed. Rhodes told Cinder to hold out until she was 17. RUBY technically got in early by 2 years; I'm not sure if Cinder knows but that would give her EXTRA reason to hate Ruby. Ruby made her feel powerless and in all likelihood got the chance SHE never had (we don't know how much longer Cinder had till she snapped).

I can EASILY see this coming up if Ruby and Cinder fight again; Cinder already hates her and given that Ruby has empathy she might try to sympathize with her....which makes Cinder even more furious.

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#69638: Jan 12th 2021 at 2:49:59 PM

Omg I was about to share that. evil grin

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69639: Jan 12th 2021 at 3:45:36 PM

Oh my God that makes so much sense

Also, one slightly Humouras idea I had was imagining 2:39 onwards but with the RWBY cast and Cinder

https://youtu.be/sxeJJoHrIOk

Bow to the Prototype
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69640: Jan 12th 2021 at 4:14:58 PM

[up]So who is Cyborg then? Jaune?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#69641: Jan 12th 2021 at 11:04:48 PM

"And no, just to say it quickly, It wouldn't be like what happned with Adam, at all. Adams arc had involved refusing to change or Stop and it ends up destroying his life, Narratively it makes sense for him to die, and his Death comes as a Result of his Refusal to stop and leave like Blake and Yang kept offering and telling him to do. "

Adam waste come from him as antagonist, aside of weird stuff like creating a leader of the white fang to kill so he can do exactly what he did before, him stuck in his chair doing nothing and finally being punked was disapointed, his ranting and screaming make him dificult to see as threating, that is without taking about some stuff like blake telling us what adam is about and the whole brand buissness.

Cinder for all we have complain at least haver her backstory reveal and all that come with that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69642: Jan 13th 2021 at 2:22:09 PM

Okay so new theory I've been having

So, you know that thing about how one of Salems punishments for Cinder is making her feel Alone thing I said earlier? Well I'm getting.....Ideas

Part of me is wondering if Salem exiling Cinder like back in Volume 6 was actually a standard pu isment Salem had for her.

Even though they weren't in Contact, Cinder seemed to be aware of the fact she couldn't come back to Salem unless she did something to 'Redeem Herself'. So I'm thinking that might be because this was what her prior pu isment for Failure was.

Adding onto that, I think what we saw in 'Beginning of the end' was another 'Exile' she was on.

There's a whole lot of things that episode that kind of lean towards this not being a typical Salem Mission

With most of the missions in Salem's faction so far, She's had more then one minion doing something. At Atlas she deployed both Watts and Tyrian, at Mistral she had Hazel and Tyrian go to kill the huntsmen in Mistral, while also having Watts set things up with Leo. And even at the Fall of Beacon, Watts was helping with his Virus, which played a major role in the whole thing

But with that, Cinder seems to have Largely been on her own, as she had to get Emerald and Mercury to help her with the Fall Maiden.

In addition to that, Its implied that her Recruiting Torchwick and all the stuff he did wasn't part of any order Salem Gave, we hear Mercury suggest 'Asking the Rats' to get to know the City and we hear her meeting Torchwick afterwards.

We don't get a scene of her Conversing with Salem til the part after Cinder is able to steal part of the Maiden powers, As part of my theory, this is when she's able to 'Redeem' herself to Salem and thus they are brought onto the Overall plan.

Bow to the Prototype
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69643: Jan 13th 2021 at 3:00:15 PM

You're reaching WMG with both theories, with the one about Amber having even more holes than the last. And just so I don't have to go through every single one, how about the fact she has had solo missions plenty of times, like Tyrian originally hunting for Spring and then Ruby, or Hazel meeting up with Adam, or Watts checking on Lionheart.

Again, it seems like you're looking for deeper layers that just don't exist.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69644: Jan 13th 2021 at 4:19:41 PM

Its speculation, there's no need to be rude about it.

And the Bits with Watts dealing with Lionheart and Hazel talking with the WF aren't an example of a single Operation, both were part of the same thing, setting up the attack on Haven Acadamy.

Tyrian kidnapping Ruby is a solo misison, but it's not a major operation, it's just 'Bring this person here'. And him looking for Springs location would not have been the end of that mission, as we know Cinder would have had to get involved somehow given she's supposed to be the Maidens vessel. Or do what they do in the show, and send people to talk to them after finding out where they are.

Edited by Snoketrope on Jan 13th 2021 at 4:24:21 AM

Bow to the Prototype
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#69645: Jan 13th 2021 at 4:26:38 PM

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying what I think. And I've made clear through my PM's with you that I disagree.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#69646: Jan 13th 2021 at 4:42:30 PM

@Wyldchild Yes! It was definitely a review. You broke down everything in the finale.

My Volume 7 finale post is here. Let me know if that's not the one you're looking for.

Sure, but she lost what wanted in power: that sense of being superior, of being like stemother, ruby silver eye power strip her of all pretention and reveal the same cinder: and overgrow child that have just kill rhodes and is try to blunt her way out.

She hasn't lost her sense of superiority.

The two moments of midnight I'm referring to are moments where the clock has ticked down to midnight and her achievement then happens as midnight chimes.

We've had two. Cinderella had three. So, there's a third one coming.

I don't know what reason we've been given to think this?

It's just something I think, a thought I've had for a while. There are things in the show and fairy tales book that led me in that direction, but not because the show has told us that. It's just speculation.

The Maiden power is a direct link to Ozma. It's a fraction of his power. It's a fraction of something human. While magic was a gift to Humanity Prime from the gods, it's heavily implied to be a gift from the God of Darkness. My theory about why the God of Darkness is because his gift to humanity is indicated to be Knowledge. It makes sense for magic to be an aspect of Knowledge.

The Light of the Silver-Eyed Warriors it outright stated to come from the God of Light. My theory there is that it's linked to Creation.

Of the four gifts to humanity, two are defaults: Creation (God of Light) and Destruction (God of Darkness). In the show itself, we're not told which Brother gave humanity Knowledge and which gave humanity Choice.

The fandom tends to favour Knowledge (God of Light) and Choice (God of Darkness). But that's just a theory, that isn't what the show has claimed. It's a theory I disagree with.

Long before we knew what the Relics looked like, I was already speculating about their forms, and was mostly right about what they'd turn out to be. My theory included speculating that the Relic of Choice was going to be the most 'dangerous' or 'difficult' one of the lot. The full theory isn't relevant for this post, but the point here is jurisdiction. I expected Choice to be the God of Light's province as it was the most significant of the four Gifts: it is Choice that determines how the other three Gifts are used, meaning the Relic was likely to be the most dangerous one in some not-immediately-obvious way. So, Destruction and Knowledge came from Dark and Creation and Choice from Light.

Qrow's version of The Two Brothers didn't confirm or refute that. Jinn's vision was a little more telling (but still interpretational).

When the gods confront Salem over turning humanity against them, Dark's focus is magic and Light's focus is choice. That bedded in for me the idea that Dark = Knowledge and Light = Choice. In short, the two gods were focussed on their disappointment in how humanity was using the particular Gift they had bestowed.

In RWBY: Fairy Tales of Remnant, which we know is canon and contains a group of stories that have been carefully selected by Ozpin for what the book heavily implies is a hidden agenda (obviously, not so hidden to the fans), The Two Brothers (which also comes from Qrow) outright states that Dark gave Knowledge and Light gave Choice.

Now, while not everything in the fairy tales will be true or even accurate, there are certain elements that are. Since the Relics and the four Gifts are plot-important, I personally think it is safe to say that Fairy Tales is accurately telling us which God gave which Gift.

So, what this means is that Magic comes from one of the Darkness's Gifts (Knowledge), but the Light comes from one of Light's Gifts (Creation).

Something the fairy tale book also mentions (same tale) is that one of the reasons the Grimm hate humanity is because they can sense a light inside humanity. Now, let's forget about the tale's speculation on the motives of the Grimm, that's not important here. The important bit is the idea that there's a light inside humanity.

I think that is a plot clue. The Grimm were created to be drawn towards the creations of the God of Light and destroy them. They were doing this long before humanity came along. Now, Destruction and Creation are default Gifts — they are the essence of the gods that give life to the things they bring into existence. There is therefore going to be a 'light' inside everything the God of Light brings into existence.

While I think the fairy tale gets fanciful about the feelings of the Grimm, I think the idea that the Grimm are drawn to destroy this 'light' as a kernel of truth to it. This is the essence of the God of Light that they're driven to destroy.

As I've said many times before, my theory about why the Relics attract the Grimm is based on this: the four Relics were created by the God of Light. The Grimm were originally brought into existence to destroy anything the God of Light created. That therefore has to include the Relics because they are also creations of the God of Light. So, when the Grimm go after the Relics, they're in a sense 'returning' to their original purpose.

So, back to humanity. What made humanity different to other creations was the two Gifts that each god chose to grant. They always grant Creation and Destruction, so Knowledge and Choice were the key to making humanity different. Knowledge gives humanity the ability to tap into these Gifts and Choice determines how they use them. We saw a microcosm of this in action when humanity attacked the gods: they Created magical effects (Knowledge) after making a Choice to use that magic to Destroy. The Brothers were therefore confronted by a single example of how humanity could combine all four Gifts — against them.

The point is that humanity is different enough for that light to burn a little brighter in humanity than in anything else that's been created. And that seams to be what the fairy tale book is hinting at: that every human has a powerful light within them. It's part of their very being.

This is what the Silver-Eyed Warriors are using. It's not that only Silver-Eyed Warriors have Light they can use in battle, it's that they're the only ones who can use it. And they do this by using all four Gifts: They make a Choice to use their Knowledge of their inner light to Create a physical manifestation that can be used to Destroy Grimm.

The fairy tale book mentions that Light was so concerned about the threat posed to humanity's existence by the Grimm that he intervened to give humanity a gift that would even the odds. The fairy tale glosses over this. It's a 'blink-and-miss' mention that never explains itself. I think it's incredibly important because that is the tale's reference to Silver-Eyed Warriors.

Jinn's vision implies that Silver-Eyed Warriors come from Ozma's relationship with a Humanity Revised woman who had vivid blue eyes. Both children had silver eyes. Jinn glosses over them completely but their eyes are very visible to the audience, and Ruby is the visible witness to the scene.

Volume 6 gives us the strong implication that the God of Light may have done more than 'just' give Ozma a reincarnation cycle. He passed on something to at least two children that taps into the God of Light's spark of divinity in a way other humans can't — not because they don't have it, but because they can't do it. I have theories about why that particular incarnation of Ozma, but that's for another post.

Now, there's no indication that Humanity Prime had the issues with the Grimm that Humanity Revised had. The difference between having a 'complete' soul and a 'fractured' soul was profound enough to make Grimm a threat level to humanity that Humanity Prime didn't need to experience, which is why Ozma and Salem could appear as gods to humanity and kill Grimm with such ease compared to them.

Magic was a part of that 'complete' world and it did not exist (at least not in 'complete' form) in the fractured world that followed. When it did briefly come into existence (the four daughters), Ozma reacted with horror and guilt. It helped him make up his mind that what he and Salem were doing was wrong. We don't fully understand why his daughter's manifestation of magic so disturbed him, but that's my speculation. Plus, I've often observed that the daughter did not manifest 'complete' magic — she produced the 'comets' but she didn't produce the four orbs (of which two were previously used to represent the Gods of Light and Dark). It hinted that her magic wasn't as 'complete' as Humanity Prime's, but also that it didn't have the blessing of the gods to exist. As the God of Light didn't want Ozma seeking out Salem the way he did, there's even a hint that these four daughters were never meant to exist at all. After all, magic is somthing humanity is supposed to 'earn' back through redemption and reclaiming their 'wholeness'. For it to manifest before its time, in a world still fractured and broken, is a sign that it's not 'right' for this world: it came about in defiance of the God of Light's will.

By the same token (as the four daughters), Humanity Revised having magic is a sign that something's not as it should be. The Maidens do not wield magic of their own. — it's Ozma's magic they're wielding. And, as if a sign that the fragmentation should never have happened, the Maiden powers remain tied to Ozma's reincarnation cycle even though they appear to be completely separated from him. It suggests that the connection between Ozma and the Maiden power may not be as severed as everyone (possibly including Ozma) may think and adds to the sense that this is a continuing consequence of the original 'wrong'.

By comparison, the SEW are hinted to be a 'gift', something needed for Humanity Revised that wasn't previously needed by Humanity Prime to help them on their journey to redemption. Something that is more of the world that now exists and therefore belongs in a way that the four daughters (through no fault of their own) were not. It's something that's born because humanity is fragmented and so desperately in need of reclaiming that unity of the soul, but which came about because Jinn implies that the reincarnation that sired these children had finally learned to do what the God of Light had intended: live in harmony with the host. It's therefore somthing that's 'right' for this world: it came about as a consequence of the God of Light's will.

If all had been well with Ozma, Maidens likely would never have come into existence. Humanity Revised is supposed to find its own way back to the magic it lost, not use the magic of others. A Maiden is not meant to be.

Silver-Eyed Warriors came into existence through the host that Jinn implied was Ozma's lesson in learning to live in harmony with his host (the visuals imply they're 'separate but united'). This harmony of souls is a microcosm of the larger unity the God of Light tasked Ozma to guide humanity towards. The Silver-Eyed Warriors therefore become a sign that Ozma is on the right path. A Silver-Eyed Warrior is meant to be.

My point here is that Magic and the Light tap into different aspects: One comes from the God of Darkness, the other from the God of Light. One occurred when Ozma fragmented his soul, the other when he unified it. One complicates the user's soul, the other simplifies it. One is granted, the other is innate.

tl;dr — Ruby's soul is weaponising its own power, a Maiden's soul is weaponising someone else's power instead of their own. Ruby's soul is too pure to become a Maiden.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
SilentLyfe Since: Apr, 2020
#69647: Jan 13th 2021 at 5:04:44 PM

Interesting theory. Just one thing. About the part of Ozma and his daughters, the expression looked less horror and more of a troubled expression. I believe its most likely due to not coming clean about everything to Salem. Also, it was only when Salem expressed the idea of replacing Humanity with their magical children that he realized what they were doing was wrong.

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#69648: Jan 13th 2021 at 5:16:48 PM

So, given that Madame and her daughters abusing an enslaved child with pyrokinetic powers like Cinder was never going to end well for them in the long run, do you think this counts as Bullying a Dragon, It's Personal, Mugging the Monster or would a different trope apply here?

Edited by gjjones on Jan 13th 2021 at 9:10:37 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#69649: Jan 13th 2021 at 5:44:23 PM

That's not really how she ends up killing them, though.

Bow to the Prototype
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#69650: Jan 13th 2021 at 6:08:50 PM

Interesting theory. Just one thing. About the part of Ozma and his daughters, the expression looked less horror and more of a troubled expression. I believe its most likely due to not coming clean about everything to Salem. Also, it was only when Salem expressed the idea of replacing Humanity with their magical children that he realized what they were doing was wrong.

He already realised what they were doing was wrong, it's just that the daughter rushed in to demonstrate her magic before he could explain what he was talking about to Salem. Salem's expression is shock that shifts into pride and adoration. Ozma's expression is shock that shifts into horror and then shifts into guilt. Yes, that's a troubled expression by default.

Seeing his daughter use magic clearly reinforced the feeling that what they were doing was wrong. But it was the feeling that what they were doing was wrong that led to him coming clean with Salem. What he realised when Salem suggested replacing humanity was just how far gone she was and that he needed to get the kids away from her for their own safety.

So, given that Madame and her daughters abusing an enslaved child with pyrokinetic powers like Cinder was never going to end well for them, do you think this counts as Bullying a Dragon, It's Personal, Mugging the Monster or would a different trope apply here?

None of them apply. Bullying the Dragon requires the bullies to know their intended victim is more dangerous than them. It's Personal is the motive for why someone's on a revenge journey. Mugging the Monster involves using a criminal to reveal how dangerous the intended victim is.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 13th 2021 at 2:19:42 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

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