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It's the old adage of "It's always darkest before the dawn", which makes sense since this is a group who had been coping with the fall of Beacon (hence why the first book was called After the Fall).
I thought it was also a reference to sun as well
So here's hoping after the complete disaster in Atlas, everyone makes a pit-stop in Vale/Patch to catch their breath.
It makes sense, since we're told traveling to the capital city in Vacuo can potentially take weeks or even months if you're unlucky. They'd have to pass through Vale to get to Vacuo, so it might be a nice breather volume if they stop there to prepare for their next big journey. (Girls, visit your dad. He's probably worried and Worst Mom is probably sitting in a tree somewhere spying on him.)
I have a general question regarding the cast: apart from the Oums, Kathleen, Shane, Miles and Burnie being involved as Descended Creators, has any of the other major cast members (such as Lindsay, Barbara, Kara, Arryn, Anna, etc.) wrote and/or directed episodes before?
Edited by gjjones on Aug 13th 2020 at 9:39:19 AM
I was thinking about a potential scene where Harriet goes off hunting RWBYNJR, somethinf like 3:40 of this but with her and Marrow
It absolutely was manipulative (although whether consciously or subconsciously, is another question). I said when the episode first came out that he'd all but admitted that he was only promoting them to qualified Huntsmen because he wanted more loyal followers than he already had.
At that time, I had quite a lot of push back from others, who felt Ironwood's just being a champ recognising the worth of the heroes.
To clarify, I keep using the word 'buy', but what I really mean is that it's a form of entitlement: Ironwood's doing something for them, now they automatically owe him. It's like, on some level, he believes that because he did this for them, he's entitled to them. They're now 'his'.
Like you, I believe this is where both his and Elm's 'loyalty' issues came from at the end of the volume. Ironwood saying 'Loyalty always matters' and Elm saying 'just who are you loyal to?'. For them, it shouldn't need to be said. It should be simply assumed, taken for granted, that RWBY and JNR are now Ironwood's to do with as he sees fit because he made them Huntsmen, so of course they belong to him now.
That's their 'militarised' mentality: you belong to the people who assigned you to their ranks. Unfortunately for Ironwood and Ace-Ops, RWBY and JNR don't come from an Ironwood-influenced Huntsman Academy, where they're pressured from the beginning to forge a military career in service to Ironwood. They come from Beacon, that bastion of the belief that Huntsmen should be free from all Kingdom and political control, run by a headmaster who believes very strongly in encouraging the kind of team-working that doesn't destroy individuality and freedom of expression.
And that can be traced all the way back to the origin of the Great War. So, while Ace-Ops is a product of Ironwood's influence on Atlas Academy, Ironwood himself is a product of Mantle's flirtation with the suppression of individuality and freedom of expression that helped trigger the Great War.
I think the biggest issue of that moment is that she's making the same mistake Ironwood spends most of Volume 7 making: in that moment, she doesn't see Oscar as a person in his own right; he's just a console that grants her access to Ozpin. It happens again in the final episode of the volume: when the kids realise that Ozpin helped Oscar crashland the airship, Team JNR (particularly Jaune) are concerned for Oscar himself. Yang simply demands to know if that means Ozpin's been spying — which is, once again, reducing Oscar down to the role of 'Ozpin access'.
It's also worth observing that Qrow does the same thing: he only sees Ozpin at that moment and so punches him so hard that he sends him flying. But he doesn't punch Ozpin. He can't. The only person he can punch is Oscar. He then doubles down on Oscar's lack of identity by telling Ruby not to lie to Oscar about the idea that Oscar's nothing more than another one of Ozma's lives.
If we prioritised the order of people who have wronged Oscar over their feelings about Ozpin, Yang would be lower down the list than Jaune and Qrow, but she does still need to learn to stop defaulting to 'Oscar's just a convenient access terminal to Ozpin' every time the subject of Ozpin pisses her off.
Meanwhile, Qrow definitely still owes Oscar an apology. Right now, the only two people who have attempted apologies have been Jaune and Ozpin himself. Oscar accepted Jaune's apology, but refused to let Ozpin apologise (which I think is sensible — there's not much Ozpin can really say at this point; the damage is done; the best thing he can do to start trying to make amends is just help them in an honest way).
We keep getting told this but, technically, we haven't seen it in practice. What we have seen is Ozpin avoiding direct confrontations with Salem, and resisting direct action to the point of being criticised for passivity.
So, while he's risked people's lives at Haven Academy against Salem's subordinates, and there's no doubt about that one, he's also not risking lives to the extent he could be... and certainly not to the extent that the fandom acts like or to which the songs suggest.
I find the disconnect rather interesting and I'm still waiting for more information on this.
Context, intention, and power dynamics matter.
It does, and here's an interesting one. When the heroes learned what the Relic of Knowledge's power was, look at what happened. They immediately assumed that they were going to be asking three questions of it — at the very least, Nora and Yang assumed they were going to start asking questions.
Of all the secrets, half-truths, twisted-truths and lies that Ozpin has told, this is the one I actually don't blame him for. Given the way the heroes behaved, I wouldn't exactly be sure of trusting them with that particular truth at that particular time. When I first watched the episode my gut reaction was along the lines of 'Whoa, entitled much?'... given that the scene is supposed to be rather comedic, perhaps it's a case of Unfortunate Implications or something, but I'm not sure I'd have been comfortable telling those kids there were two available questions at that particular point in time.
If we're discussing the subject of people earning trust, then the kids made it fairly clear (to me, at least) that they needed to earn trust before being unleashed on the Relic of Knowledge.
In some ways, I think the train incident was actually a blessing — where this specific issue is concerned. It made the the kids grow up fast about handling the Relic of Knowledge. Once they knew the truth about Salem's unkillability, they became a lot more mature and trustworthy about handling the Relic. They know it's not a toy now, and they're properly concerned now about making sure the third question doesn't get wasted.
So, I'm fairly consistent on this point: I have absolutely no problem with Ozpin not wanting to reveal the available questions to the kids and I have absolutely no problem with the heroes not wanting to reveal the same to Ironwood. For me, the kids have earned that particular trust since then while Ironwood... well, hasn't. Although it's a bit too late for that now that he knows there's one question left.
That's also not entirely true (on two points).
Ozpin lost much of his authority once he ended up inside a fourteen year old boy. Remember, back in Volume 5 when they had no idea how to train if Qrow wasn't there to teach them and Ozpin had to remind them that he did used to be their headmaster? Had Ozpin been standing there in person, they wouldn't have had that issue, but Ozpin's invisible now. His filter is a child.
How would the heroes have handled the growing disquiet with Ozpin's secrets had Ozpin been there in person? I think it would have unfolded differently. They weren't so prepared to confront Leo in Volume 5 until the very end when they finally knew he was a traitor. But, for the most part, that separation between adult authority figure and students was present at the beginning of Volume 5 when RNJR first met Leo.
Compare that to their increasing willingness to openly challenge Ironwood as V7 progressed. A lot had happened between Haven and Atlas, of course, to explain this change of behaviour. My point here is that it does indicate that, at least initially, they may have have behaved more 'subordinate' to Ozpin had he been there in person than they did with dealing with an Ozpin who was wearing the face of a child who's four years younger than most of them.
So, Ozpin's authority was damaged right out of the gate because of his reincarnation. But this makes sense because it's a time of great vulnerability for him, which explains why he'd want people in positions of authority whom he could trust while going through it. It's not just because he has to retrain a new physical body and a new Aura to be able to handle his power and abilities, he's got an authority issue, too. While his 'trusted lieutenants' would be carrying over that authority from his previous host, the kids aren't actually in the same position. Ironically, for a group of people who might be more sensitive to authority (children), they're also not as bound to loyalty to the previous host in quite the same way as a bunch of followers who have been groomed for years to support him... and that does actually happen in the show itself: it's the kids who are quicker to challenge Oz than Qrow. They have less reason to be loyal to Ozpin and less reason to be affected by an unbroken sense of authority to an adult who is no longer physically present; their experiences (or lack of them) frees them from that (by making them more susceptible by being taken in by the current appearance of a child host) and effectively gives them an accidental advantage to adults such as Qrow (less loyalty baggage getting in the way, allows for a clearer head to challenge things that concern them).
The other point that's not entirely true is the idea that Ozpin's been winging it. There's a difference between having no plan to defeat an enemy you think is unkillable and having plans to thwart any current plots she got unfolding at the time. He has no plan to defeat Salem once and for all. But he has clearly had plans to thwart her plots along the way, and has regularly succeeded in doing so (something even Ironwood acknowledged despite his history of critising Ozpin's action... or inaction, as the case may be).
Now, based on what we've been told so far, Summer is supposedly not a death that Ozpin caused (I obviously have my theories about that). Qrow claims that was a Summer secret not an Ozpin secret. Now, while we all speculate about what that really means and how involved Ozpin really was, for now, the show is claiming that Summer has a bit of a mystery going on and that Ozpin may not have been responsible for whatever happened to her.
By the same token, Cinder had clearly identified Pyrrha as a candidate to receive Amber's power even before the Ozluminati knew. What that suggests is that she knew that Ozpin had very few options on what to do with Amber's power and that there was only a limited number of people he could choose to try and solve the problem that she and Salem had created — so limited, in fact, that she could make a good guess as to whom Ozpin would choose. And it makes sense because the requirements that Ozpin listed did narrow the options right down.
In fact, Ozpin's criteria are very interesting because he cites, as his most important criterion, that the person chosen has to be ready for it. Now, with hindsight we can see the problems the burden of being in Salem's path causes for people, so it's easy to see why it's so important for someone to be ready so that they stand a chance of being able to handle the burden being placed on them. But this is something we've seen with Ozpin: he may put lives at risk, but he seems to try and limit the amount of lives he's putting at risk, and he tries to make those lives as ready as possible for the tasks he needs them to do — and if there are 'readiness' issues, but no other options, he seems to try to provide as much alternative support as he's able. When even that fails, he tells people to flee the situation. He did that even with Pyrrha: he may have thought her ready to become a Maiden, but he didn't want her fighting Cinder. He may have let Team RWBY go to Mountain Glen, but only because he knew they'd go there without his permission, and this way they'd at least have a trained Huntsmen to look after them. He may have taken Oscar to the Haven battle, but he didn't want Oscar fighting Hazel. And, as he once said behind Ironwood's back: his allies and enemies may think he's training kids to fight a war, but what he actually wanted was for them to never have to.
Anyway, the plan to create a new Maiden, and the method for doing so, are actually implied to not be Ozpin's. The conversation between Ozluminati and Pyrrha in the vault strongly implies that this plan of transferring Amber's Aura into someone else was almost certainly Ironwood's. The rest of them weren't happy and possibly even downright uncomfortable, but they didn't see any other options being available. And this leads me to something I've suggested before is very important: Blake and Yang talk about the secret keeping in V7, and it's clear that they think that Ozpin keeping secrets at the beginning has left them with few good options now. They've missed the point. They've missed Jinn's real reveal. Ozpin's true secret isn't that Salem's unkillable or that he doesn't know how to defeat her. His true secret is that there were never any good options to begin with.
In the end, Ozpin's order to Pyrrha was to flee, with Jaune, to safety and send the teachers to the school. Pyrrha made a personal choice to defy that order. The person she was that made her eligible for the Maiden transfer also meant that she was the kind of person who had to step forward when she thought she was the only one who can try.
So, while Ozpin choosing her to become a Maiden is what put her into a position where she could make that choice, and not knowing about the Maidens means she probably wouldn't have been in a position to fight Cinder, the decision to choose a Maiden appears to have been as a result of having the option to transfer Amber's Aura using technology — which was implied to have been Ironwood's plan. They were just holding off on using it because they were waiting for Ozpin to choose a person to use it on.
Now, it's certainly implied that the Ozluminati were winging it where Amber's situation was concerned. However, that actually isn't connected to Salem being an Invincible Villain and Ozpin having no master plan to defeat someone who's unkillable. The reason that caught the Ozluminati on the hop is because something very strange happened to Amber that none of them — not even Ozpin — had ever encountered before. Even if Ozpin had possessed a master plan to permanently defeat Salem, the Amber situation (and therefore dragging Pyrrha into the fray) would still have required some off-the-hoof planning and winging it from the Ozluminati because of how unprecedented this situation was.
And, if we think about it, even now — going into Volume 8 — the heroes still don't know about the parasite Grimm. They still don't know what happened to Amber. They still don't know that Cinder obtained the first half of the power by using a Grimm. They still don't know that Cinder's injuries are because of what Ruby did on top of that tower. They still don't know there's a parasite Grimm inside Cinder that makes her entire position as a Maiden completely vulnerable to Ruby's silver eyes (since Cinder seems to only be a Maiden because the parasite Grimm is trapping the Maiden power within her soul, which means Ruby should be able to eyeball the Maiden powers right out of Cinder if given enough time).
Yes, his statement to Jacques outside the mine implies that Ironwood was actually using an existing council rule: there seems to be a rule that if the military needs to classify something as a military secret the military gains full control of that situation from the council. So, Ironwood's been gaming the system by using this rule as a 'loophole' to hide everything Salem-connected from the council by ensuring he doesn't need a council vote on it. That helps prevent leaks that might get back to Salem, but undermines the council and the rule that's being abused.
The only one who got Dee killed was Dee.
We still don't know that the Grimm attacked the train just because the Relic was on board. We've been told that the Relic's attraction is 'weak but undeniable'. How weak is 'weak'? Is it stronger than a single stressed human or weaker? Over what distance can Grimm sense it? Can they sense it when it's in a crowd of humans? Or would the crowd of humans effectively mask it?
Remember, Ozpin didn't claim the Grimm came to the train because of the Relic. What he was telling us was that, if all the humans were 'invisible' to the Grimm (which were already present by now), they'd still be able to sense the Relic. He was basically telling us that Ren cannot mask the Relic.
On a more serious note, it would be a form of mineralogy or possibly crystallography (although not necessarily for the obvious reason).
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 13th 2020 at 4:41:37 PM
I think it'd be separate from all of those, because of Dust's unique properties. There probably actually is a word for it - choology?
In some ways Ironwoods treatment of the specialists and how he tries to treat RWBYNJR is a far tamer variant of what Cinder does to Em and Merc. Giving them little treats and to cause appreciation and making them feel like they owe you, While discouraging going against you.
It was what I noticed comparing Elms words summarizing the ace ops POV to Cinders words to emerald
"You don't have to understand orders, you just have to follow them"
"Don't think, Obey"
"And that can be traced all the way back to the origin of the Great War. So, while Ace-Ops is a product of Ironwood's influence on Atlas Academy, Ironwood himself is a product of Mantle's flirtation with the suppression of individuality and freedom of expression that helped trigger the Great War.
This is true but there is also a component of that: Ironwood kinda try to asume Ozpin mantle and becoming the leader of the brotherhood after that, in part because he have the state with the most advance and powerfull military and I guess because after the event of mistral let him as leader by defeaut(whatever thoedore would agree....probably no), so for him he is transferring ozpin students to is care as the new leader of the brotherhood.
This link of thinking almost sound reasonsable: RWBY have being fighting salem, they now under care of ironwood and the brotherhood by extention, meaning that in simple words, he is their leader now,specially since he watch them stood and fight in vytal, also I always get the feeling James was trying to treat RWBY the way he hoped ozpin treat him or is ideas: he have a concret plan, he actually told them about it and include others on it while securing the maidens and kept RWBY close and update.
Of course the flaw with this is evident: aside of Ironwood no being prepared for ozpin job(because he never really get the details about it), RWBY never really WORK for opzin neither for the brotherhood, they belive they woth WITH him, part of is vale condictioing, part Ozpin sheltering but Ozpin always offer the idea(whatever real or not) of free range og ideas and disagreement, Ironwood inhability to understand this let a wegde between the two.
Great points as always, Wyld. Like I think I could probably respond to all your lengthy comments with that, because you always knock it out of the park with excellent and well-thought out comments.
I agree with the subtle grooming going on, even if it's likely Ironwood doesn't think of it that way or intend it to be malicious. Everyone under his authority is groomed, to some degree or another — the students at Atlas Academy are groomed to become his Specialists in the military, unless they rebel like Robyn's group. Winter has been groomed to become a Maiden for who-knows how long? The Ace-Ops were likely groomed into his perfect team, absolutely and unthinkingly loyal to him. Penny is groomed to be a Protector, and his big secret that he kept from even Ozpin.
He brings the kids into Atlas, he welcomes them openly, and then he starts giving them all sorts of goodies. He gives them new gear, he grants a bunch of 1st Years their licenses, he starts including them in all of his top-secret military operations under the direct tutelage of the Ace-Ops. He's grooming them all, and then it blows up when his expectations of them clashes with their actual independence. He expected more loyal Subordinates, not partners that work with not for him.
I think you're also correct about Ozpin, in terms of the difference between the anger against him (perceiving him as getting their loved ones killed in his war) versus the reality of him being overly cautious.
Edited by harostar on Aug 14th 2020 at 4:50:51 AM
Cinders stepsisters allusions would be 2 other candidates for maidenhood under Salem who grew close together as they were trained. Before they were forced to fight to the death with one Victor.
I think someone made a post showing that by color, watts,hazel and tyrian ARE her "stepsisters", and giving their behavor toward her run from indiference(hazel), prtenciousnes(watts), to direct mockery(tyrian) it does fit.
Which mean salem is the fairy granmother and the stepmother.
damn it, this woman and her cleavage can hold so many alultions on it
There are numerous versions of Cinderella, so it would be possible to have numerous versions of the stepsiblings..
Well until her damn backstory show up(IF it show up) I think tyrian, hazel and watts count as her "stepsister" in a way.
is also a sort of counter to ruby: nearly WBY all love ruby, while the rest of salem team dont like Cinder that much.
Also It struck me.....that whale is going to eat ether ruby or penny and probably the other is going to save her, I get the feeling the whale is going to be cut in two.
It seems to have Everknight castle on it so I don't think it'll be destroyed.
Unleash it cant detach herself if that is the case.
But im going to bet the whale is going to eat penny and ruby, im calling it.
Okay, this comment right here wins the internet. Salem's cleavage has powers not fully understood by mortal men.
Not even the brother gods can fathom the strength of Salem's cleavage.
Oz knows its true power, that's why he's playing such a defensive game.
It is how "the hearts of men are easily swayed" after all, and Ozma had to be very careful not to look at it during his fight with her. Frankly, it's amazing Ironwood nearly got a face full of it and managed to not look at it, but then again maybe that's why he snapped. He got a glimpse and the sight of it was enough to drive him insane.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 15th 2020 at 2:09:50 PM
Who do you think designs Salems clothes?
Do you think she has little minigrimm make it Like in a Disney movie?
He went mad upon realizing he wrecked his good hand.
My guess is that Cinder's evil stepsisters and stepmother will show up in her backstory, her pledging herself to Salem was what she was willing to do to escape for that...Only to end up in basically the same kind of dynamic, which she then replicates with Emerald, Mercury, and Neo. Recall back in volume 3 we hear snippets of Cinder talking to Salem, including Cinder telling Salem her desires, which sounds like the kind of thing they'd go over when Cinder is first pledging herself to Salem's service; I don't really buy the angle that Salem was a stepmother for her, though it's very clear she's gone from one abusive situation to another.
Edit: Btw this conversation is getting KIND of creepy.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2020 at 4:48:18 AM
Okay, listened to the Volume 7 soundtrack. Since I did it last year, I decided to review each track.
Summary: I think this is the strongest album they've ever produced for RWBY. Both the big songs and the scores are good. With one exception (where it feels like we've been given a Ron the Death Eater fanfic instead of lyrics), there's very little on this album that I actively dislike. That's a first for me.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 15th 2020 at 10:36:39 AM
See, it's that take on War that made me think it was from Yang's perspective, since she's the only one that does fit a lot of those traits without needing to be subjected to Ron the Death Eater.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 15th 2020 at 5:06:20 AM
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