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Aug 12th 2020 at 6:29:37 PM

[up] It's the old adage of "It's always darkest before the dawn", which makes sense since this is a group who had been coping with the fall of Beacon (hence why the first book was called After the Fall).

Ohmknight _(o)_ from the End Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
_(o)_
Aug 12th 2020 at 9:07:38 PM

[up][up]I thought it was also a reference to sun as well

The Final Name
harostar Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Aug 13th 2020 at 2:26:12 PM

So here's hoping after the complete disaster in Atlas, everyone makes a pit-stop in Vale/Patch to catch their breath.

It makes sense, since we're told traveling to the capital city in Vacuo can potentially take weeks or even months if you're unlucky. They'd have to pass through Vale to get to Vacuo, so it might be a nice breather volume if they stop there to prepare for their next big journey. (Girls, visit your dad. He's probably worried and Worst Mom is probably sitting in a tree somewhere spying on him.)

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Aug 13th 2020 at 6:33:20 PM

I have a general question regarding the cast: apart from the Oums, Kathleen, Shane, Miles and Burnie being involved as Descended Creators, has any of the other major cast members (such as Lindsay, Barbara, Kara, Arryn, Anna, etc.) wrote and/or directed episodes before?

Edited by gjjones on Aug 13th 2020 at 9:39:19 AM

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aug 13th 2020 at 6:56:07 PM

I was thinking about a potential scene where Harriet goes off hunting RWBYNJR, somethinf like 3:40 of this but with her and Marrow

https://youtu.be/6nDwIB5QZC4

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Aug 13th 2020 at 8:21:59 PM

One part of me was wondering if his treatment of rwbyjnr in this volume was, while nice and well meaning also partially manipulative in a way, in the sense of giving all these cool new things, subtly making them reliant on James.

It absolutely was manipulative (although whether consciously or subconsciously, is another question). I said when the episode first came out that he'd all but admitted that he was only promoting them to qualified Huntsmen because he wanted more loyal followers than he already had.

At that time, I had quite a lot of push back from others, who felt Ironwood's just being a champ recognising the worth of the heroes.

To clarify, I keep using the word 'buy', but what I really mean is that it's a form of entitlement: Ironwood's doing something for them, now they automatically owe him. It's like, on some level, he believes that because he did this for them, he's entitled to them. They're now 'his'.

Like you, I believe this is where both his and Elm's 'loyalty' issues came from at the end of the volume. Ironwood saying 'Loyalty always matters' and Elm saying 'just who are you loyal to?'. For them, it shouldn't need to be said. It should be simply assumed, taken for granted, that RWBY and JNR are now Ironwood's to do with as he sees fit because he made them Huntsmen, so of course they belong to him now.

That's their 'militarised' mentality: you belong to the people who assigned you to their ranks. Unfortunately for Ironwood and Ace-Ops, RWBY and JNR don't come from an Ironwood-influenced Huntsman Academy, where they're pressured from the beginning to forge a military career in service to Ironwood. They come from Beacon, that bastion of the belief that Huntsmen should be free from all Kingdom and political control, run by a headmaster who believes very strongly in encouraging the kind of team-working that doesn't destroy individuality and freedom of expression.

And that can be traced all the way back to the origin of the Great War. So, while Ace-Ops is a product of Ironwood's influence on Atlas Academy, Ironwood himself is a product of Mantle's flirtation with the suppression of individuality and freedom of expression that helped trigger the Great War.

Yang knew Oscar wasn't to blame yet yelled at him to drag Ozpin out, taking her frustration out on the injured and clearly distressed kid.

I think the biggest issue of that moment is that she's making the same mistake Ironwood spends most of Volume 7 making: in that moment, she doesn't see Oscar as a person in his own right; he's just a console that grants her access to Ozpin. It happens again in the final episode of the volume: when the kids realise that Ozpin helped Oscar crashland the airship, Team JNR (particularly Jaune) are concerned for Oscar himself. Yang simply demands to know if that means Ozpin's been spying — which is, once again, reducing Oscar down to the role of 'Ozpin access'.

It's also worth observing that Qrow does the same thing: he only sees Ozpin at that moment and so punches him so hard that he sends him flying. But he doesn't punch Ozpin. He can't. The only person he can punch is Oscar. He then doubles down on Oscar's lack of identity by telling Ruby not to lie to Oscar about the idea that Oscar's nothing more than another one of Ozma's lives.

If we prioritised the order of people who have wronged Oscar over their feelings about Ozpin, Yang would be lower down the list than Jaune and Qrow, but she does still need to learn to stop defaulting to 'Oscar's just a convenient access terminal to Ozpin' every time the subject of Ozpin pisses her off.

Meanwhile, Qrow definitely still owes Oscar an apology. Right now, the only two people who have attempted apologies have been Jaune and Ozpin himself. Oscar accepted Jaune's apology, but refused to let Ozpin apologise (which I think is sensible — there's not much Ozpin can really say at this point; the damage is done; the best thing he can do to start trying to make amends is just help them in an honest way).

Ozpin asked people to sacrifice themselves for him, while keeping numerous major secrets from them including that he didn't actually have a plan for defeating Salem. That's the issue, not just "keeping secrets is bad". But that asking people to give their lives for you, while not actually HAVING a plan, is.....well, kind of a dick move.

We keep getting told this but, technically, we haven't seen it in practice. What we have seen is Ozpin avoiding direct confrontations with Salem, and resisting direct action to the point of being criticised for passivity.

So, while he's risked people's lives at Haven Academy against Salem's subordinates, and there's no doubt about that one, he's also not risking lives to the extent he could be... and certainly not to the extent that the fandom acts like or to which the songs suggest.

I find the disconnect rather interesting and I'm still waiting for more information on this.

And they kept the Final Question a secret, because that's a major ace in the hole. Ironwood could have turned around and decided to use the Question himself, when it's basically a last resort.

Context, intention, and power dynamics matter.

It does, and here's an interesting one. When the heroes learned what the Relic of Knowledge's power was, look at what happened. They immediately assumed that they were going to be asking three questions of it — at the very least, Nora and Yang assumed they were going to start asking questions.

Of all the secrets, half-truths, twisted-truths and lies that Ozpin has told, this is the one I actually don't blame him for. Given the way the heroes behaved, I wouldn't exactly be sure of trusting them with that particular truth at that particular time. When I first watched the episode my gut reaction was along the lines of 'Whoa, entitled much?'... given that the scene is supposed to be rather comedic, perhaps it's a case of Unfortunate Implications or something, but I'm not sure I'd have been comfortable telling those kids there were two available questions at that particular point in time.

If we're discussing the subject of people earning trust, then the kids made it fairly clear (to me, at least) that they needed to earn trust before being unleashed on the Relic of Knowledge.

In some ways, I think the train incident was actually a blessing — where this specific issue is concerned. It made the the kids grow up fast about handling the Relic of Knowledge. Once they knew the truth about Salem's unkillability, they became a lot more mature and trustworthy about handling the Relic. They know it's not a toy now, and they're properly concerned now about making sure the third question doesn't get wasted.

So, I'm fairly consistent on this point: I have absolutely no problem with Ozpin not wanting to reveal the available questions to the kids and I have absolutely no problem with the heroes not wanting to reveal the same to Ironwood. For me, the kids have earned that particular trust since then while Ironwood... well, hasn't. Although it's a bit too late for that now that he knows there's one question left.

Ozpin's crime comes down to being in a position of authority over everyone, and asking them to risk everything for him. He's been pretending to have a master plan, when he was winging it the entire time and it cost the lives of people they cared about Summer, Pyrrha, ect.

That's also not entirely true (on two points).

Ozpin lost much of his authority once he ended up inside a fourteen year old boy. Remember, back in Volume 5 when they had no idea how to train if Qrow wasn't there to teach them and Ozpin had to remind them that he did used to be their headmaster? Had Ozpin been standing there in person, they wouldn't have had that issue, but Ozpin's invisible now. His filter is a child.

How would the heroes have handled the growing disquiet with Ozpin's secrets had Ozpin been there in person? I think it would have unfolded differently. They weren't so prepared to confront Leo in Volume 5 until the very end when they finally knew he was a traitor. But, for the most part, that separation between adult authority figure and students was present at the beginning of Volume 5 when RNJR first met Leo.

Compare that to their increasing willingness to openly challenge Ironwood as V7 progressed. A lot had happened between Haven and Atlas, of course, to explain this change of behaviour. My point here is that it does indicate that, at least initially, they may have have behaved more 'subordinate' to Ozpin had he been there in person than they did with dealing with an Ozpin who was wearing the face of a child who's four years younger than most of them.

So, Ozpin's authority was damaged right out of the gate because of his reincarnation. But this makes sense because it's a time of great vulnerability for him, which explains why he'd want people in positions of authority whom he could trust while going through it. It's not just because he has to retrain a new physical body and a new Aura to be able to handle his power and abilities, he's got an authority issue, too. While his 'trusted lieutenants' would be carrying over that authority from his previous host, the kids aren't actually in the same position. Ironically, for a group of people who might be more sensitive to authority (children), they're also not as bound to loyalty to the previous host in quite the same way as a bunch of followers who have been groomed for years to support him... and that does actually happen in the show itself: it's the kids who are quicker to challenge Oz than Qrow. They have less reason to be loyal to Ozpin and less reason to be affected by an unbroken sense of authority to an adult who is no longer physically present; their experiences (or lack of them) frees them from that (by making them more susceptible by being taken in by the current appearance of a child host) and effectively gives them an accidental advantage to adults such as Qrow (less loyalty baggage getting in the way, allows for a clearer head to challenge things that concern them).

The other point that's not entirely true is the idea that Ozpin's been winging it. There's a difference between having no plan to defeat an enemy you think is unkillable and having plans to thwart any current plots she got unfolding at the time. He has no plan to defeat Salem once and for all. But he has clearly had plans to thwart her plots along the way, and has regularly succeeded in doing so (something even Ironwood acknowledged despite his history of critising Ozpin's action... or inaction, as the case may be).

Now, based on what we've been told so far, Summer is supposedly not a death that Ozpin caused (I obviously have my theories about that). Qrow claims that was a Summer secret not an Ozpin secret. Now, while we all speculate about what that really means and how involved Ozpin really was, for now, the show is claiming that Summer has a bit of a mystery going on and that Ozpin may not have been responsible for whatever happened to her.

By the same token, Cinder had clearly identified Pyrrha as a candidate to receive Amber's power even before the Ozluminati knew. What that suggests is that she knew that Ozpin had very few options on what to do with Amber's power and that there was only a limited number of people he could choose to try and solve the problem that she and Salem had created — so limited, in fact, that she could make a good guess as to whom Ozpin would choose. And it makes sense because the requirements that Ozpin listed did narrow the options right down.

In fact, Ozpin's criteria are very interesting because he cites, as his most important criterion, that the person chosen has to be ready for it. Now, with hindsight we can see the problems the burden of being in Salem's path causes for people, so it's easy to see why it's so important for someone to be ready so that they stand a chance of being able to handle the burden being placed on them. But this is something we've seen with Ozpin: he may put lives at risk, but he seems to try and limit the amount of lives he's putting at risk, and he tries to make those lives as ready as possible for the tasks he needs them to do — and if there are 'readiness' issues, but no other options, he seems to try to provide as much alternative support as he's able. When even that fails, he tells people to flee the situation. He did that even with Pyrrha: he may have thought her ready to become a Maiden, but he didn't want her fighting Cinder. He may have let Team RWBY go to Mountain Glen, but only because he knew they'd go there without his permission, and this way they'd at least have a trained Huntsmen to look after them. He may have taken Oscar to the Haven battle, but he didn't want Oscar fighting Hazel. And, as he once said behind Ironwood's back: his allies and enemies may think he's training kids to fight a war, but what he actually wanted was for them to never have to.

Anyway, the plan to create a new Maiden, and the method for doing so, are actually implied to not be Ozpin's. The conversation between Ozluminati and Pyrrha in the vault strongly implies that this plan of transferring Amber's Aura into someone else was almost certainly Ironwood's. The rest of them weren't happy and possibly even downright uncomfortable, but they didn't see any other options being available. And this leads me to something I've suggested before is very important: Blake and Yang talk about the secret keeping in V7, and it's clear that they think that Ozpin keeping secrets at the beginning has left them with few good options now. They've missed the point. They've missed Jinn's real reveal. Ozpin's true secret isn't that Salem's unkillable or that he doesn't know how to defeat her. His true secret is that there were never any good options to begin with.

In the end, Ozpin's order to Pyrrha was to flee, with Jaune, to safety and send the teachers to the school. Pyrrha made a personal choice to defy that order. The person she was that made her eligible for the Maiden transfer also meant that she was the kind of person who had to step forward when she thought she was the only one who can try.

So, while Ozpin choosing her to become a Maiden is what put her into a position where she could make that choice, and not knowing about the Maidens means she probably wouldn't have been in a position to fight Cinder, the decision to choose a Maiden appears to have been as a result of having the option to transfer Amber's Aura using technology — which was implied to have been Ironwood's plan. They were just holding off on using it because they were waiting for Ozpin to choose a person to use it on.

Now, it's certainly implied that the Ozluminati were winging it where Amber's situation was concerned. However, that actually isn't connected to Salem being an Invincible Villain and Ozpin having no master plan to defeat someone who's unkillable. The reason that caught the Ozluminati on the hop is because something very strange happened to Amber that none of them — not even Ozpin — had ever encountered before. Even if Ozpin had possessed a master plan to permanently defeat Salem, the Amber situation (and therefore dragging Pyrrha into the fray) would still have required some off-the-hoof planning and winging it from the Ozluminati because of how unprecedented this situation was.

And, if we think about it, even now — going into Volume 8 — the heroes still don't know about the parasite Grimm. They still don't know what happened to Amber. They still don't know that Cinder obtained the first half of the power by using a Grimm. They still don't know that Cinder's injuries are because of what Ruby did on top of that tower. They still don't know there's a parasite Grimm inside Cinder that makes her entire position as a Maiden completely vulnerable to Ruby's silver eyes (since Cinder seems to only be a Maiden because the parasite Grimm is trapping the Maiden power within her soul, which means Ruby should be able to eyeball the Maiden powers right out of Cinder if given enough time).

Was Ironwood breaking any rules though? I keep seeing people make these claims without any proof. At no point does any character in the show make the claim that Ironwood broke any laws or rules or guidelines, only that he had been granted a lot of leeway by the council that might need to be dialed back.

Yes, his statement to Jacques outside the mine implies that Ironwood was actually using an existing council rule: there seems to be a rule that if the military needs to classify something as a military secret the military gains full control of that situation from the council. So, Ironwood's been gaming the system by using this rule as a 'loophole' to hide everything Salem-connected from the council by ensuring he doesn't need a council vote on it. That helps prevent leaks that might get back to Salem, but undermines the council and the rule that's being abused.

And then he ends up getting one of the few remaining Huntsmen in Mistral killed because he neglected to tell people about the Relic, which caused the girls to turn on him so hard he retreated into Oscar when they possibly needed him the most and only came out when the person he could have reasoned with could no longer be reasoned with.

The only one who got Dee killed was Dee.

We still don't know that the Grimm attacked the train just because the Relic was on board. We've been told that the Relic's attraction is 'weak but undeniable'. How weak is 'weak'? Is it stronger than a single stressed human or weaker? Over what distance can Grimm sense it? Can they sense it when it's in a crowd of humans? Or would the crowd of humans effectively mask it?

Remember, Ozpin didn't claim the Grimm came to the train because of the Relic. What he was telling us was that, if all the humans were 'invisible' to the Grimm (which were already present by now), they'd still be able to sense the Relic. He was basically telling us that Ren cannot mask the Relic.

What would the study of dust be called?

Dustology, clearly. [lol]

On a more serious note, it would be a form of mineralogy or possibly crystallography (although not necessarily for the obvious reason).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 13th 2020 at 4:41:37 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers, it's just not worth reading.
Aug 13th 2020 at 9:04:28 PM

I think it'd be separate from all of those, because of Dust's unique properties. There probably actually is a word for it - choology?

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aug 13th 2020 at 10:12:38 PM

@Wyld

In some ways Ironwoods treatment of the specialists and how he tries to treat RWBYNJR is a far tamer variant of what Cinder does to Em and Merc. Giving them little treats and to cause appreciation and making them feel like they owe you, While discouraging going against you.

It was what I noticed comparing Elms words summarizing the ace ops POV to Cinders words to emerald

"You don't have to understand orders, you just have to follow them"

"Don't think, Obey"

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Aug 14th 2020 at 7:19:41 AM

"And that can be traced all the way back to the origin of the Great War. So, while Ace-Ops is a product of Ironwood's influence on Atlas Academy, Ironwood himself is a product of Mantle's flirtation with the suppression of individuality and freedom of expression that helped trigger the Great War. "

This is true but there is also a component of that: Ironwood kinda try to asume Ozpin mantle and becoming the leader of the brotherhood after that, in part because he have the state with the most advance and powerfull military and I guess because after the event of mistral let him as leader by defeaut(whatever thoedore would agree....probably no), so for him he is transferring ozpin students to is care as the new leader of the brotherhood.

This link of thinking almost sound reasonsable: RWBY have being fighting salem, they now under care of ironwood and the brotherhood by extention, meaning that in simple words, he is their leader now,specially since he watch them stood and fight in vytal, also I always get the feeling James was trying to treat RWBY the way he hoped ozpin treat him or is ideas: he have a concret plan, he actually told them about it and include others on it while securing the maidens and kept RWBY close and update.

Of course the flaw with this is evident: aside of Ironwood no being prepared for ozpin job(because he never really get the details about it), RWBY never really WORK for opzin neither for the brotherhood, they belive they woth WITH him, part of is vale condictioing, part Ozpin sheltering but Ozpin always offer the idea(whatever real or not) of free range og ideas and disagreement, Ironwood inhability to understand this let a wegde between the two.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
harostar Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Aug 14th 2020 at 1:50:00 PM

Great points as always, Wyld. Like I think I could probably respond to all your lengthy comments with that, because you always knock it out of the park with excellent and well-thought out comments.

I agree with the subtle grooming going on, even if it's likely Ironwood doesn't think of it that way or intend it to be malicious. Everyone under his authority is groomed, to some degree or another — the students at Atlas Academy are groomed to become his Specialists in the military, unless they rebel like Robyn's group. Winter has been groomed to become a Maiden for who-knows how long? The Ace-Ops were likely groomed into his perfect team, absolutely and unthinkingly loyal to him. Penny is groomed to be a Protector, and his big secret that he kept from even Ozpin.

He brings the kids into Atlas, he welcomes them openly, and then he starts giving them all sorts of goodies. He gives them new gear, he grants a bunch of 1st Years their licenses, he starts including them in all of his top-secret military operations under the direct tutelage of the Ace-Ops. He's grooming them all, and then it blows up when his expectations of them clashes with their actual independence. He expected more loyal Subordinates, not partners that work with not for him.

I think you're also correct about Ozpin, in terms of the difference between the anger against him (perceiving him as getting their loved ones killed in his war) versus the reality of him being overly cautious.

Edited by harostar on Aug 14th 2020 at 4:50:51 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aug 14th 2020 at 8:35:00 PM

Random Idea

Cinders stepsisters allusions would be 2 other candidates for maidenhood under Salem who grew close together as they were trained. Before they were forced to fight to the death with one Victor.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Aug 14th 2020 at 8:44:09 PM

[up]I think someone made a post showing that by color, watts,hazel and tyrian ARE her "stepsisters", and giving their behavor toward her run from indiference(hazel), prtenciousnes(watts), to direct mockery(tyrian) it does fit.

Which mean salem is the fairy granmother and the stepmother.

damn it, this woman and her cleavage can hold so many alultions on it

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aug 15th 2020 at 12:00:26 AM

There are numerous versions of Cinderella, so it would be possible to have numerous versions of the stepsiblings..

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Aug 15th 2020 at 9:16:15 AM

Well until her damn backstory show up(IF it show up) I think tyrian, hazel and watts count as her "stepsister" in a way.

is also a sort of counter to ruby: nearly WBY all love ruby, while the rest of salem team dont like Cinder that much.

Also It struck me.....that whale is going to eat ether ruby or penny and probably the other is going to save her, I get the feeling the whale is going to be cut in two.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aug 15th 2020 at 9:23:43 AM

It seems to have Everknight castle on it so I don't think it'll be destroyed.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Aug 15th 2020 at 9:38:58 AM

Unleash it cant detach herself if that is the case.

But im going to bet the whale is going to eat penny and ruby, im calling it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
harostar Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Aug 15th 2020 at 9:48:33 AM

damn it, this woman and her cleavage can hold so many alultions on it

Okay, this comment right here wins the internet. Salem's cleavage has powers not fully understood by mortal men. [lol]

RebelFalcon Officially out of fucks to give from Do you care? Relationship Status: Mu
Officially out of fucks to give
Aug 15th 2020 at 10:38:49 AM

Not even the brother gods can fathom the strength of Salem's cleavage.

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.
harostar Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Aug 15th 2020 at 10:40:57 AM

[up] Oz knows its true power, that's why he's playing such a defensive game.

RebelFalcon Officially out of fucks to give from Do you care? Relationship Status: Mu
Officially out of fucks to give
Aug 15th 2020 at 11:09:37 AM

It is how "the hearts of men are easily swayed" after all, and Ozma had to be very careful not to look at it during his fight with her. Frankly, it's amazing Ironwood nearly got a face full of it and managed to not look at it, but then again maybe that's why he snapped. He got a glimpse and the sight of it was enough to drive him insane.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 15th 2020 at 2:09:50 PM

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aug 15th 2020 at 11:20:29 AM

Who do you think designs Salems clothes?

Do you think she has little minigrimm make it Like in a Disney movie?

Things are really about to get Fun around here
harostar Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Aug 15th 2020 at 12:38:03 PM

[up][up] He went mad upon realizing he wrecked his good hand. [lol]

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Aug 15th 2020 at 1:42:26 PM

My guess is that Cinder's evil stepsisters and stepmother will show up in her backstory, her pledging herself to Salem was what she was willing to do to escape for that...Only to end up in basically the same kind of dynamic, which she then replicates with Emerald, Mercury, and Neo. Recall back in volume 3 we hear snippets of Cinder talking to Salem, including Cinder telling Salem her desires, which sounds like the kind of thing they'd go over when Cinder is first pledging herself to Salem's service; I don't really buy the angle that Salem was a stepmother for her, though it's very clear she's gone from one abusive situation to another.

Edit: Btw this conversation is getting KIND of creepy.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2020 at 4:48:18 AM

Aug 15th 2020 at 1:54:42 PM

Okay, listened to the Volume 7 soundtrack. Since I did it last year, I decided to review each track.

Summary: I think this is the strongest album they've ever produced for RWBY. Both the big songs and the scores are good. With one exception (where it feels like we've been given a Ron the Death Eater fanfic instead of lyrics), there's very little on this album that I actively dislike. That's a first for me.

  • Worst song: War (aka "I can't believe those lyrics")
  • Worst score: ...And Eat It, Too.
  • Best song: Until the End.
  • Best score: Right Behind That Door.

    Song by song 
  • Trust Love: Well, when the show was airing, I wasn't too sure about this song. But now I can read the lyrics while listening to it, it's possibly now my favourite opening song. I had a bit of an epiphany listening to this song with the lyrics in front of me. I actually think the lyrics are a message to both Ozpin and Ironwood. They were both looking for that better world, seeking that inspiration that will helping the solve the problem. The message seems to be if that if they're willing to reach out, see what they have in the people they're working with, then hope can be restored and a way forward can be found. By the end of the volume, Ozpin opens his eyes and reaches out while Ironwood closes his and withdraws. I could probably analyse this song further.
  • Touch the Sky: There's a blusey-meets-mild-House feel underneath this song that's a bit weird but not in a horrible way. I really didn't like this song when it was playing in the episode, but it's much better as a stand-alone song. Possibly because the episode didn't allow me to realise it's actually another Weiss song, but — at last! — a very different kind of Weiss song. I was starting to get a bit tired of all the Weiss songs, but we finally have something new. Some of the old elements are referenced (mirrors, unhappiness, searching her inner feelings) but their all turned on their head. The last few bars of the song are a callback to either "Path of Isolation" or "Miror, Miror, Part II", but the whole song feels like a sequel to "This Life is Mine". The sentiment of the song is therefore quite different, it's something that feels very... Yang. Weiss has an inner Yang and I like it. "Right now, I'm just a bit surprised", to quote the song.
  • Hero: Another song I did not like while it was playing in the episode. But the full song is again very different to how it came across in the episode (it was a mess in the episode). It has a 'faux operatic' opening that I was not expecting but which felt so perfect for this larger-than-life, theatrically heroic figure that Ironwood wants to be. You get the feeling that Ironwood, like Ruby, grew up on fairy tales dreaming of the day he could be the dashing, romantic hero of legend sweeping in to save the day and protect the people. And then, as the song continues, it becomes more discordant, more unravelled, more authoritarian, something less romantic and more desperate... it stops being about a romantic hero saving the day and more about being a Take That! against Ozpin ("You can't believe in honesty that your children can win a war"). The episode gave us the discordant part of the song, and I can see now why it felt like such a mess: it was missing the context of the rest of the song. In the end, the song's telling us that Ironwood is a hero wannabe, haunted by what other people think of him and trapped in Ozpin's shadow.
  • Brand New Day: Another song I didn't realise the intention of during the episode it played in. Like Weiss, Qrow's got himself a make-over song. It's very much that bouncy, confidence-boosting, energy-raising song of someone whose had pulled himself out of the bottom, got his second wind, is determined to turn his life around... but, at the same time, it's got a 'slap-stick' energy to it that creates a feeling of irony lurking in the background of the song (combined with lyrics like "Think this change is here to stay"), and the song's surprisingly abrupt end creates a very expectant feel... as if you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. At the risk of creating a bird joke, it's quite a fun, chirpy little song. And the other shoe certainly did drop, so I guess we'll find out if he can indeed make a permanent change.
  • War: Musically, this song is as it appears in the show: a punchy, bravado song. Lyrically, however, the song has been completely ruined for me. The song is Team RWBY's perspective of Ace-Ops, a perspective that uses such extreme language that it feels more like a villain's song. Some parts of the song fit in with the episode very well, the arrogance that fits in perfectly with Ruby's "You were — then you trained us" line. But a lot of the song feels completely at odds with both the show and Team RWBY: they feel so betrayed and disgusted with the Ace-Ops' lack of morality and conscience that they portray Ace-Ops as having screwed them over, as liars, manipulative, cruel and spiteful. Given that it's been obvious to the entire fandom how things would end up because Ace-Ops has been so honest and forthright from the start about how they follow orders unquestioningly and form professional relationships instead of friendships, these lyrics just create a disconnect with the show. There's also contradiction, which ranges from the lyrics claiming they trusted Ace-Ops from the beginning... but also claim it's just like them "to take the coward's way out" — which is right up there with Harriet's "I had you kids pegged from the start" line. From a song I went into with no expectation of beyond 'this is just going to be the big fight smack-talk song', I've been left with a song that has Team RWBY claiming that, thanks to Ace-Ops, they'll "never trust the same" again and that friendships are now just going to be "another game" filled with, among other things, "selfish abusers". Now, either Jeff knows something we don't, or he's having one of those 'creative licence' moments that he had with "BMBLB" to give us a Ron the Death Eater fanfic version of Team RWBY that portrays them as judgemental, arrogant, hateful and spiteful (seriously, Ozpin, you may as well lock yourself away again and save yourself the trouble because against this version of Team RWBY, you've got no chance). So, another song that's surprised me — this time, in a truly awful way.
  • Celebrate: This could be an existing dance song. It's a bit Commadores meets Kool & the Gang to begin with then goes very Lamar Hall later on (for obvious reasons). Nice, rhythmic song to chill me out after the previous song's travesty.
  • Until the End: This feels like it's a sequel to "This Will Be the Day", with shared references of new days, fading light, simple souls, finest hours, and getting through doors (opening doors in TWBTD, breaking down doors in "Until the End"), and so on. TWBTD is full of the bravado of youth, aware something dark is coming but full of the brashness and energy of those who don't yet know what they're getting into. "Until the End" is where the brashness, energy and hope has gone. All that's left is a resolve to keep going and to keep standing by each other, it's the only thing left they can give. It feels like foreboding, an attempt to convince the self that they can do this, the kind of sad promise that is made a person who knows they can't keep it and their last duty is to put on a brave face for the sake of others regardless. Although I feel this is about Ruby (especially given references to harnessing power in darkness and the juxtaposition with Summer's promise in "Red Like Roses, Part II"), I feel like she could be speaking for Ozpin, too: he's been giving off vibes of being someone who keeps going, knowing he has to keep fighting but does so on automatic, having almost forgetten why and only remembering that he can't afford to stop. It's much more mature, experienced and jaded than TWBTD, a sad interpretation of resolve, and probably reflects Ozpin's position in V8: his return only means that he's standing with them, even if they don't want him there — because, at this point, it's the only thing now that he can do. This concept was also briefly discussed when Yang confronted Raven in Spring's vault. And that is how this song feels: Ruby's understanding that, when everything else has been stripped away, you still possess the power to tell others they won't go through this alone. I really do like this song.
  • Fear: Pretty as we heard it at the end of the volume, so I already knew I liked this song. The lyrics are so heavily linkd to Ozpin's monologue and the montage of events as he speaks, that the song could almost be Ozpin's song, even if it's relevant to everyone in the volume. As the one major character who hasn't had any song or even leitmotif associated with him yet, I'm certainly on the look out for the day we get his song. I'm not completely certain it's Ozpin's song, but it's the first solid candidate we've had: the lyrics don't just fit his monologue but also his back story (I could analyse it in these terms, but that, like a the other songs, would need to be a separate post). Suffice it to say, it's a song with plenty of rock energy until it needs to lower the energy into something more sombre to hit the heaviest questions, before exploding into cycling through the important questions only to end the song abruptly... a good way to leave the questions hanging in the minds of the listeners. So, when no-one's watching, who will you be when you're afraid?
  • I May Fall (Acoustic): This is a slow, sombre version of the song, with strong violin accompaniment that fits in with the tone of this volume's soundtrack. It started off promising, but the refrains and chorus get too high for Casey's vocals and the high-pitched, occasionally flat, struggle really hurts my ears. It's a shame because I would have really enjoyed it otherwise, and she has a really nice unaccompanied solo two-thirds of the way through the song. By the way, coming off the back of 'Until the End' and 'Fear', this song makes it feel like 'I may fall but not by your hand' isn't talking to another person (like Ozpin or Salem), but instead to fear itself.
  • Nevermore (Peter Jones Remix): This a much more dance-techno version of the song. I quite like the music, but it doesn't improve the lyric issues I have with the song (lines such as "I challenge your weak manifesto" still make me cringe). Still, lyrics aside, I do prefer this version to the original.
  • In the Shadow of Atlas: The bombastic themes that open the volume are a good way to open the scores part of the album, too, and it flows quite well into the music that plans while they're flying through Mantle trying to decide what to do. The extended version of this piece is really atmospheric and has a steampunk strings bounce to it that I really enjoy before moving into some power slides that wouldn't be out of place in a film. It then softens into a much more tenative, wary piece that retains a very 'fantasy steampunk' feel. I quietly pleased with this one.
  • Protector of Mantle: There's such a strangely mixed beginning. It's a very 'sleepy Sunday afternoon' laziness to the opening of the song but it gives off a strangely 'American folk meets commercial Asian' vibe with the way the plucked strings are used. Then it launches into some kind steampunk horror tension build up before hitting the rock elements that we hear for the heroes's first fight of Volume 7 (against the Grimm). It sounds strangely different from the episode, but works well for the stand-alone song. The transition into the 'Penny Piece' section is a bit abrupt, and her part of the music is quite 'pretty' — light and joyful, after the heavy fight sequence that preceded it. Bringing it full-circle. I was writing this while the song looped, and the end of the piece flows very well into the start of the piece.
  • Apprehended: The heroes of Atlas arrive! Bombastic opening, but in a very different way to Ironwood's bombastic military theme. It then eases off into the tense, slower music and makes interesting use of the light-hearted music that plays while Forest says his piece, all brought together by the Mantle theme playing in the background, before moving into the more serious music of the reveal of Atlas Academy. It works strangely well. You can certainly feel the difference between the Mantle themes and the Atlas themes.
  • A New Approach: Sometimes, you don't really notice what's playing in the background while scenes are unfolding. It's not until I listened to this that I realised Qrow's Bad Luck Charm (a slow, moody version, at least) was playing when he pulled the 'we've got confidential information' line on Ironwood. The other thing I realised, listening to this, is that the music has a very Lord of the Rings feel to it. I don't mean the iconic musical sections or the really dramatic ones, but some of the quieter moments that play as the Hobbits are leaving the Shire, or when they're drinking at the Prancing Pony before they meet 'Strider'.
  • We All Have Our Talents: This opens with the introduction of Watts, but there's an interesting repeating cascade in the background of the music that isn't audible in the episode. It adds an interesting depth to the stand-alone piece before launching into an industrial clockwork-meets-metallic raindrop beat that I can just barely hear in the episode but which is more noticeable on the album. It's a very short piece, but I'm a sucker for the steampunk vibe.
  • Into the Mines: It flows well enough between parts, but the section designed for the Centinel fights doesn't work as a stand-alone. It goes with the episode scene, but not away from it. On the other hand, the music that fights during the Ace-Ops fight with the Geist works fine as a stand-alone piece.
  • Enjoy the Cake: Not really sure this one works as a stand-alone. It's a bit too one-note and really needs the episode to help define it. The only bits that really stand out are the light-hearted moment from the cake-cutting, and the music that plays while Ruby and Qrow talk about Ozpin and Summer. I did just realise that this latter piece of music is a revamp of the Vale episode of the World of Remnant series, which folds into a slow, matched-style rendition of the very last refrain of "Red Like Roses, Part II". That the two themes being rolled together makes sense given that the focus of the discussion is on Ruby, Qrow, Ozpin and Summer.
  • ...And Eat It, Too: Not much to really say about this one; it's as it appears during the Jacques and Watts scene. The last section (which isn't in that episode) is a bit more interesting, but it is what it is.
  • Six Possible Outcomes: The music from the supply run while Penny and Ruby talk, which is a bouncy tune with Penny notes that we've heard in the past for Penny scenes. It then sort of stumbles into the more tense music that covers the confrontation with Robyn, becoming a sort Western 'high noon' theme with a guitar elements that start off a bit folksy and end up a bit Spaghetti Western. It eventually settles on a slightly 'Spaghetti Western-esque' rendition of the Mantle themes, which grabs my interest since it gives it a very mild Ennio Morricone flare in a couple of places. I think it's appropriate, given that both Robyn's inspiration and Spaghetti Westerns have a European connection. It just suffers a little from needing the episode to go with it.
  • The Sisters Schnee: When I saw this title, I was wondering who on earth the third sister would be, given that it's a play on "the sisters three". Of course, the third "sister" is Fria, and the music from that scene is probably the strongest part of the entire score. It's a little different from the earlier slow revamp of "Path of Isolation" which plays while Winter and Weiss talk after their training, but there's still just enough elements of "Path of Islation" in there to show that it's based to some degree on that song. I think it might be one of my favourite pieces so far from the score section of this album.
  • Party Crashers: There's something very... Daft Punk about the start of this piece. The way it transitions into the massacre music is really odd, and it's based on the discordant steampunk whine that's happening as Watts prepares to begin the massacre. It's actually quite effective.
  • Looking Inward: Opens with the testing of Penny and the curfew scene, then jumps to the lab scene where Pietro is updating Ruby and Weiss. Although it has a sad, blusey feel to a lot of it that's actually quite compelling, the score ends on a surprisingly ominous note.
  • Full-On Vigilante: This is the Robyn part of the same episode, so there's much more energy, it's much more forceful music. I notice that both this and Looking Inward actually does have some Atlesian elements to them, they're softer, slower notes associated with more solemn military music for Looking Inward, but in this one, they're much more aggressive and confrontational while staying different to the bombastic themes of either the Ace-Ops' first appearance or Ironwood's. The music that plays during the truth-telling scene reminds me of something but I can't place it right now.
  • Right Behind That Door: As befits the room of magic, this song opens with the high strings, flutes and piccolos of a 'mystical fantasy' piece, but there are elements in it that come from the music that played during the God of Light's first appearance in Jinn's story which then blend into Oscar's leitmotif before glving way to that sad slow horn theme that's been cropping up this volume in what I'm associating with that solemn military aspect of the Atlesian musical themes we've been hearing this volume (this is where Ironwood talks about the Staff and ends with the comment about Oscar's potential loss of identity). It's a very 'world of magic meets modern Atlesian military with a God of Light/Oscar core' piece. It's very much about a couple of themes, constantly trying to blend into some kind of whole but always breaking down just as it seems about to succeed. The story of the volume, basically, and the story of the room itself, which is a fractured setting just waiting to be made whole. What's particularly interesting is that every time the music breaks down, it collapses into Oscar's theme which is them swallowed by the more powerful, but extremely sombre Atlesian. It's so much a 'war' of identity as a 'debate' and fits the conversation between Oscar and Ironwood very well. One striking note in all of this: this is a very sombre piece and Oscar's theme has always been slow and sad, but it really stands out whenever it appears in this piece and is even more melancholy than usual. It also comes across as very fragile, given that it's surrounded by the more powerful Ironwood themes. When Ironwood's part crescendoes into the madness of the PTSD flashback, the music finishes on Oscar's theme again, but it's much stronger, with a fuller orchestra, than it's ever been before (and it almost as a bit of a Serenity vibe to it). I didn't realise how well the music fit the scene until I got the chance to listen to it in isolation, and it's actually quite powerful as a stand-alone piece. I think this is actually a very clever piece of music, possibly one of the cleverest of the entire show to date.
  • You Are Cordially Invited: A quiet beginning (coinciding with Ruby deciding Weiss should snoop around the house) which quickly goes full bombastic Atlesian theme with 'ballroom waltz' flower notes. It's an Atlesian interpretation of the score that played during the school ball in Volume 2, which is a nice call-back. Even the music is mimicking the Vale Arc. At least, in places.
  • Hey, Mom, It's Snowing!: The parts of this that deal with the confrontation in the meeting and the Watts reveal have some elements of the Grimm music, which is an interesting touch. It's almost like this show's equivalent of 'Jaws' theme music.
  • Time to Do Our Jobs: It starts as a slowed-down, chilled-out version of Trust Love, which is first heard a few episodes backwards when Yang and Blake are in the back of the van. Then it moves to the music that plays in the meeting room when they decide to save Mantle, and ends when they're all running for the airship. It ends on the music that plays when they're in the airship. The slowed-down version of Trust Love is fine but the remainder is pure action score, so it doesn't really work in isolation from the episode it's in.
  • Mantle Overrun: It's a sort of operatic rock with a steampunk backing to start with before going pure action sequence rock. Some of that Grimm version of a Jaws-esque theme comes back in parts of this, and there are also elements of Bad Luck Charm floating through it, too. I think there are elements of Path of Isolation, Trust Love and Hero in it in places as well.
  • You Big Bag of Bones!: The starts off as a revamp of the volume opening (from In the Shadow of Atlas, then throws in some of the Ace-Ops themes, Atlesian themes, and then becomes big and heavy for the Megaliath battle, including the brief nod to Indomitable. Although it's not the first piece on this album to bring in the chanting, it's the first one to make a big show of it, although it only lasts a few moments towards the end. The first half works as a stand-alone piece but, towards the end, it definitely becomes the kind of action music that only works when watching the episode.
  • Free Ride and a Show: There's quite a creepy element to this, a bit 'horror film' before it goes back to the Atlesian themed music that starts the action sequence. The fight to capture Tyrian pretty much ties everyone's themes together, bombastic Ace-Ops elements for Clover, the Robyn themes and Bad Luck Charm with something more discordant and creepy for Tyrian. The Bad Luck Charm elements become quite powerful and bombastic at times, and there's even some occasional 'dance macabre' elements to make it interesting. Overall, it's not a bad stand-alone piece.
  • It Was Bait: A very slow, heavy version of the Atlesian theme with creepy elements tossed in before going full industrial/house combined with Ominous Latin Chanting elements then slips in a tiny bit of slow Trust Love before launching into a version of Hero that fits the style of the slow, operatic beginning. It's not a bad piece, but it's probably a good thing that it's not very long.
  • Are You With Me?: This starts with the tense, creepy music as the heroes start falling out with each other before hitting the loud, discordant mess that symbolises the abrupt appearance of the Seer before settling into that gentle, but creepy, rendition of Divide for Salem's appearance. There's a nice bit of foreshadowing in the music here as it goes into that style of echoing, industrialised beats that often get used for submerged horror or action sequences, which are designed to evoke the feeling of whalesong-esque or 'beasts of the deep' style sounds. I did notice it when the giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers put in its appearance, but the fact it also plays when Salem manifests in the office is (along with the hints of her outfit change) a nice bit of set-up for the end of the volume. It also includes the solumen bugle-esque Atlesian elements which do create a very 'Atlas stands alone' feel and introduces some of that music that's playig when Winter and Weiss walk through the R&D facility to go and visit Fria (which can be heard in full in The Sisters Schnee. Ominous Latin Chanting returns, just in case the piece wasn't already creepy enough, and it ends when Ironwood leaves the Ace-Ops behind to fight Team RWBY, which seems to contain both Hero and Trust Love elements. Overall, I really like this piece.
  • ...Then You Trained Us: There's a tension build-up beat to the start of this, and a electronic, high-pitch beeping comes into play, speeding up towards the start of the action music. That becomes quite painful to listen to. Then it goes full heavy metal and the electronic whine stops, thankfully. The score doesn't really work as a stand-alone piece; despite that, the guitar is riffed to death and it sounds pretty good. I like this one a lot.
  • The Timeline Has Changed: It starts with Neo reporting back to Cinder (a piece I really do like) and launches into Neo's fight with JNR/O, which has very 'dance macabre' themes, which is a really good steampunk feel for Neo. Again, it really needs the fight to go along with it, but I still like it. There's a lot Cinder's theme that flits through it in places. The chase music of JNR/O running through the halls is nice and didn't realise before that it includes elements of Oscar's theme peeking out here and there. One of my favourite moments in the episode is the electronica music that plays when Neo runs at Jaune with the Relic. But, aside from the Cinder and Oscar elements, this score feels very much like it's all about Neo. And I've got no problem with that. This is going to be one of my favourite pieces on the album
  • And I Refuse to Starve: It starts with the Penny-esque themes, but with a more ominous overtone that leads into a slow Divide (Cinder's theme version) theme peppered with Ominous Latin Chanting. That jumps into the action music that plays during the Cinder's fight with Winter and Penny. This piece works as a stand-alone, and I'm glad of that because this was one of the tracks I was looking forward to from the volume. It's tense, ominous and threatening, which is exactly what it's supposed to be. It uses Penny's rescue of Winter to move into the awakening of Fria and the growing crescendo of music that builds up to the power reveal and then keeps going to the end before stopping abruptly. I'm big fan of this one.
  • The Enemy of Trust: The music this opens feels like it's based on Oscar's theme, the elements become clearer at certain moments, before something that's based a little on Ironwood's military theme slides in. A little piece based on Divide occurs for just a moment before launching into the music that plays while Oscar falls and Penny comes into her power and when the girls have to flee Winter. It ends as the whalesong-esque and 'underwater' themed music begins heralding the arrival of Salem. This track is actually quite effective even without the episode and I like it a lot.
  • Let's Get Real: This is Nora's song about Ren. She wants him to confirm they're in love, and (if the song is accurate) then part of the reason why she exploded about being so sick of secrets is because she's fed up with Ren's secretiveness. It's an energetic beat, designed to be the same kind of dance song that fits in with the rest of the music from Robyn's election party. It's not really my cup of tea but it's not a bad piece.

Boop.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 15th 2020 at 10:36:39 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers, it's just not worth reading.
RebelFalcon Officially out of fucks to give from Do you care? Relationship Status: Mu
Officially out of fucks to give
Aug 15th 2020 at 2:05:19 PM

[up]See, it's that take on War that made me think it was from Yang's perspective, since she's the only one that does fit a lot of those traits without needing to be subjected to Ron the Death Eater.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 15th 2020 at 5:06:20 AM

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.

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