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unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 26th 2020 at 8:05:35 PM

Rebel: funny thing I love Harriet, I dont mind her dislike of RWBY and I love her personality.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon It's time for a Revolution from Hell Relationship Status: Mu
It's time for a Revolution
Jun 26th 2020 at 8:39:41 PM

[up]Eh, I'm of the opposite. If she was just uber competitive and a bit of a jerk I'd be fine with her, classic Jerk with a Heart of Gold character, but it was the Hidden Disdain Reveal and subsequent attempts to kill Ruby that soured her character to me. Namely, the idea that she never trusted the protagonists and was just waiting for an excuse to deal with them, and that she was perfectly willing to murder them despite the orders being to arrest them, and has the gall to yell at Marrow for not trying to kill them.

Harriet: Marrow! Cut the crap, will you!?
Marrow: I'm trying to arrest her, not kill her, Hare. You're being excessive!
Harriet: It's not excessive if it's necessary.
It not only makes her look duplicitous considering how well she seemed to be taking to Ruby throughout the Volume via a Commonality Connection, it makes her look like an unrestrained maniac. Even Elm, the other Ace-Op using lethal force, had the excuse of being genuinely hurt by RWBY's "betrayal" and lashing out in anger, with Vine confirming she too was going through Conflicting Loyalty but trying to deny it.

As is, she just seems like the Token Evil Teammate and all too willing to practice Murder Is the Best Solution. And considering the current situation in the US, that's not a particularly flattering depiction.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:42:18 AM

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.
Jun 26th 2020 at 8:43:15 PM

Couldn't exactly fault her, though. Since RWBY had arrived, they were basically stonewalling Ironwood at every turn while (to her, at least) feigning their alliance to him. In a way, they are to Harriet and Elm what Lionheart was to RNJR.

Edited by Psyga315 on Jun 26th 2020 at 8:44:15 AM

RebelFalcon It's time for a Revolution from Hell Relationship Status: Mu
It's time for a Revolution
Jun 26th 2020 at 9:25:01 PM

Not really. Lionheart kept saying he was gonna do something but pretty much did nothing while they sat in that damn house, instead choosing to feed information to Salem and Watts.

The protagonists meanwhile only omitted the fact the Lamp had a Question left and that Salem had Complete Immortality. They still did missions and helped out the Military and the Ace-Ops regularly, and were working with Ironwood. It's not even like they were doing it out of malice, they wanted to get a feel for Ironwood and see if he was trust worthy.

A better comparison would be that they were Ozpin in this scenario, having good intentions but keeping secrets none the less, but that would only apply for Elm, Vine, Marrow, and Ironwood.

Harriet meanwhile says she had them pegged from the start, as in the very first time they met, while Elm was vigorously shaking Ruby's hand and Marrow was being a tsundere, Harriet was standing there and thinking "I don't trust these brats. They're gonna betray us any second, and when they do, Imma kill em." At best you could probably find some comparisons to Yang's behavior, but even then Yang at least was willing to trust Ozpin provided he tell no more lies or half truths and turned judgmental when they happened anyway.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jun 26th 2020 at 12:26:58 PM

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.
Jun 27th 2020 at 9:25:17 AM

And we don't know whether any of the older characters have killed in the past or not

Actually we do. Maria killed the crocodile Faunus who went after her.

Jun 27th 2020 at 9:47:33 AM

Hah, that's a lot of pages to catch up on. If I respond to everything I want to, we'll be here for weeks.

But I am going to comment on this, and you'll see why in a minute.

The problem really comes down to the Ship Tease trope, since, in all honesty, it should be a YMMV trope. Ship Tease as is requires that the ship actually be teased, and not just be that the fans presume it is being teased. It has to be the creators intent to tease the ship, and more often than not that can only truly be confirmed when a series ends, largely because of tropes like Romantic False Lead, Relationship Writing Fumble, and Implied Love Interest.

We certainly do have that problem with Bumblebee. The creators have said they have put deliberate Ship Tease into the show for Bumblebee, but nowhere near as much as the fandom thinks, who see more shipping than the creators ever put into the show. In other words, Ship Tease does not remove the fact that there's Ho Yay going on. How can we tell which is which? We can't. Only the creators can confirm that.

A while back, I raised a question on ATT about this issue because the ShipTease.RWBY page is a mess. That's partially because the Ho Yay page was such a mess and the Bumblebee section was lifted from Ho Yay and dumped into Ship Tease without any attempt to clean up the entries and sort things out. Since then, the Ship Tease page that was created has been treated like a het Ho Yay page, as though the trope is YMMV. It's not. It's an objective trope. Worse, Ho Yay is going through its own clean-up project to stop people from doing this kind of troping. Since we don't know which bits of Bumblebee are Ho Yay and genuine Ship Tease, and the trope is not supposed to be a 'Shipping Moments' page, we can clean this up to just a paragraph per ship.

I did do a clean-up and, as per ATT, I asked on Trope Misuse Cleanup In General along with a suggested rewrite of the page. I had no responses, and I never came back to it.

However, since the subject came up here, I may as well go back to it. So, what do you think about cleaning up the ShipTease.RWBY page to something like the following, and should we keep the sub-page or move everything back to the main page?

    Suggested rewrite 
  • Blake and Yang are team-mates who become increasingly inseparable. When Blake is wearing herself out worrying about the White Fang, Yang opens up to her about her own past obsession with finding her Missing Mom and offers her the first dance if Blake rests and relaxes at the school ball; although Blake attends with Sun, she insists on having that first dance with Yang. When Yang is disqualified from the tournament for seemingly maiming Mercury, she is reduced to tears when Blake struggles to believe her; she is then reduced to tears of rage when she finds Adam attacking Blake, who maims her to punish Blake for abandoning him by hurting everyone Blake loves. At Haven, a distraught Yang confesses to Weiss that she's angry over Blake's disappearance after that event because she needed Blake to be there for her. When Blake and Yang later fight Adam, Blake tells him they're protecting each other; he compares that vow to the promise Blake once made to him, struggling to understand what Blake sees in Yang. In Volume 7, other characters comment on how much time Blake and Yang are spending alone together and Nora speculates that something maybe going on between them.
  • When Sun first meets Blake, he winks at her as he runs by and sticks by her for two days when she temporarily abandons her team after accidentally revealing she's ex-White Fang. In Volume 2, Sun gushes to Neptune about how great she is and that he doesn't want to mess things up with her, and she eventually agrees to attend the ball with him, spending most of the evening with him and Neptune. When Sun's team wins their tournament match, he spots Blake in the crowd and makes finger pistols at her, causing her to smile and blush. During their time together in Menagerie, Blake's knowledge and experience teaches him to be more mature and tactful while his optimism, earnestness and selflessness teach her the value of friendship and give her the strength to face her fears. At the end of it, they part ways with a chaste kiss and hug, Blake having gained the strength to return to her team and Sun having gained the maturity to take proper leadership responsibility of his own team.
  • Neptune and Weiss were briefly interested in each other. Weiss tried to arrange the scouting groups so that she's paired up with Neptune, and asks him to accompany her to the dance. He only turns her down because he can't dance but, once he gets over that, he jumps at the chance to spend time with her. Weiss supports him in the tournament until Team SSSN fight Team NDGO; Neptune openly flirting with the all-female team changes Weiss's mind.
  • Pyrrha was eager to get to know Jaune from the moment they met, saves his life despite barely knowing him, and quickly becomes his mentor, unlocking his Aura with an intimate gesture and training him to become a better fighter. She's willing to give Jaune relationship advice over Weiss even though it hurts her to do so, something Nora takes note of. Just before she heads off to fight Cinder, she grabs Jaune and gives him a kiss, knowing that she probably won't come back alive. It takes Jaune until the end of Volume 6 to come to terms with her death.
  • Nora and Ren have had only each other from a very young age. Characters confuse the nature of their relationship and even Nora has to convince herself that they're Just Friends. The journey to Haven Academy forces Ren to confront his painful past while Nora stays by his side even when Ren and Ruby make the decision to split up Team RNJR so that Ren can avoid his home village. When Team RNJR is rescued and taken to Haven, they hold hands and snuggle. When Cordovin attacks Ren with her mecha, Nora angrily demands she come back with 'her man'. In Volume 7, Ren and Nora argue about the situation they're in regarding Salem, until Nora finally gives up on words and kisses him. When Team JNR and Oscar fight Neo later on, Ren is left in tears when he finds himself fighting a Neo who is disguised as Nora.
  • When Ironwood first arrives in Vale, he greets Glynda enthusiastically, offering a hug; she rebuffs his advances. During the school ball, he asks her to dance with him and this time she accepts. While Glynda struggles to accept his gung-ho, militaristic approach to dealing with every problem, she thinks that he has a very good heart and is the first to offer her support whenever he's troubled.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 27th 2020 at 6:03:42 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers, it's just not worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 27th 2020 at 11:20:37 AM

Rebel: the lionheart comparation is still kinda adp because RWBY work with Ironwood while slightly undermind him by trusting information with Robyn and withholding information.

Granted I dont know Harriet knew any of them, she just got a vibe RWBY wasnt to be trusted, I like her but the whole "never like you all along" is a personal trope I dislike because it come as force.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 11:33:25 AM

The thing is, if they were A Okay with what Ironwood was doing and disliked him getting critized. Then that's a display of the Ace Ops flaws rather then how things would look without context

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 27th 2020 at 11:46:09 AM

Considering this were the same kids who pick a fight with cordovin, lie to Ironwood in a important detail and work behind his back, expect them to be okey or stopin to said "maybe the new kids were right to do that" is kinda....streching to anyone.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 12:04:23 PM

They didn't pick a fight with Covordin, they tried to get past the stupid blockade with her escalating things and pulling out there big weapon cause she's really petty.

And again, all that sounds bad. If you don't see everything Ironwood has been doing and how he handles things, an excuse the Ace Ops don't have.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Jun 27th 2020 at 12:19:05 PM

The thing is, if they were A Okay with what Ironwood was doing and disliked him getting critized.

Then go out of their way to criticize him. Seems like it's fine when they do it.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 12:28:58 PM

I was talking about the Ace Ops there

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Jun 27th 2020 at 1:01:09 PM

[up][up]That is the vibe team RWBY gave me throughout volume 7.

Edited by XJlock on Jun 27th 2020 at 4:03:33 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 1:01:55 PM

They never display any issue with Ironwood getting critized

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Jun 27th 2020 at 1:17:13 PM

Granted I dont know Harriet knew any of them, she just got a vibe RWBY wasnt to be trusted, I like her but the whole "never like you all along" is a personal trope I dislike because it come as force.

I'm not sure taking her at her word is the right thing to do in that situation.

We only have to look at her behaviour throughout the volume to know she didn't have them pegged from the start. She wouldn't be the first character to claim that they never trusted someone who's just 'betrayed' them to try to cover up how hurt they're feeling by that betrayal; for someone as competitive as her, it also makes sense that she wouldn't want to admit she was wrong or had made a mistake or had been in any way caught off-guard by the 'betrayal'. Even though she was using excessive force and had that exchange with Marrow, when she did finally pin Ruby, she didn't try to kill her, she tried to cuff her. So, in the end, she wasn't going for a kill, she was going for an arrest.

Whereas being betrayed made other members of the team hold back (Vine and Marrow) and other members both angry and holding back (Elm), the betrayal made Harriet angry and violent — a bad combination, certainly, but also in keeping with the aggressively competitive personality we've seen so far.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers, it's just not worth reading.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 1:38:04 PM

RE:Ship Tease

Id say leave the bumblebee stuff because it has been Confirmed that there was stuff meant to tease them. So trying to seperate what was and wasn't intended would be a goddamn nightmare.

In general clean it up but not here. Cause....I worry it would get nasty and quick

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:01:16 PM

Kylo: robbing a plane is kinda escalating, as petty she was, that was their fault.

And so far they didnt do anything because Ironwood didnt order, is posible harriet have observation about RWBY, specially their insistency in camaradarie and willing to flunk orders, this was probably the limit to her.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:02:08 PM

Were they going to magic there way into Atlas?

Stealing a vehicle out of necccity is nowhere near pulling out important military weapon cause some people pissed you off

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:04:40 PM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
RebelFalcon It's time for a Revolution from Hell Relationship Status: Mu
It's time for a Revolution
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:28:20 PM

[up]x4 If that interpretation was canon I'd be more sympathetic to Harriet. Cause, yeah, she did seem to be building up a rapport with Ruby, and if that was genuine then her behavior is basically similar to Elm's reaction, out of being hurt. As it stands though, for now Harriet just looks like the Token Evil Teammate.

[up]Especially when said Weapon is supposed to be reserved for killing sea kaiju, and caused enough panic in the city she's supposed to be defending to call forth aforementioned sea kaiju. The whole situation escalated way beyond reason because Cordovin has such a fragile ego that Maria chewing cashews and say she doesn't care is enough to turn her murderous.

I'm a Falcon, not Faction. Like Shun from ARC-V. My Servants.
unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:29:33 PM

Deciding you are going to steal a plane and enter ilegaly because someone block you is kinda escalating things, specially since nobody is going to buy "we are in important mission so back off" out the sudden.

Is why I dont like cordovin because it feel she was cartoony and petty in order to justify RWBY protagonist morality.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:33:40 PM

The only reason it isn't legal is cause of the blockade. Wich as the show has made clear was just a really dumb idea to start with. They had no real choice but to do what they did

And again, not in the same universe turning murderous over a bruised ego, Especially when it ended up putting a city in danger thanks to the panic she caused.

And her being like she is isn't something exclusive to Covordin, Atlas is generally Charachterized as being incredibly arrogant and egotistical(there a metaphor for good old Merica after all)

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:34:17 PM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:52:33 PM

[up]Thing is, "you give me no choice because a blockage" kinda is close to "is you fault you put yourself in my way" which is kinda....similar to Ironwood a this point, specially with ruby arrogant speches that we mock a volume before.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Jun 27th 2020 at 2:57:36 PM

If you strip it completely of any sort of context then yes that is pretty Simmular

They had no other choice but to get passed the blockade. James chooses to ignore better alternatives then what he's doing cause he's a paranoid Control Freak who can't think things through

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 27th 2020 at 12:02:40 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere..
Jun 27th 2020 at 3:12:18 PM

[up]I think weiss have the idea of turning herself on to her father so they can pass, which was shut down and them afterward they decide to...steal a plane, which is insane.

And I mean "james plan is dumb because I cant pass" is pretty weak argument in general.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
harostar Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Jun 27th 2020 at 3:16:02 PM

Honestly, the theft of the plane was necessary and it's worth pointing out that Ironwood isn't bothered about it. He recognizes they had no other option, particularly since it's his fault they were in that position to begin with. I've honestly wondered whether Ironwood had a list of exemptions that was ignored by an incompetent commander or whether he just.....didn't bother to make sure important allies like Qrow and the next Oz incarnation would be able to reach him if necessary. If he didn't have a cleared list of VIPs, that's an extra level of foolishness since it would mean...well...shit like what happened. (As I'm not sure of the travel distance, but it's not clear whether it would have been possible for Qrow to fly to Atlas or not.)

Either way, simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for Ironwood to get Qrow's letter wasn't an option. The longer they stayed in the open with an unguarded Relic and Oscar in a vulnerable state, the more likely it would have been that Salem's forces may have caught up with them.

[up] No, James plan was dumb because the blockade created an extreme situation where his allies had no other options. They were out in the open with a Relic and a vulnerable Oz-incarnation, and Atlas was the closest/most viable safe location. Their only other option would have been to head for Vacuo, which is a MUCH longer and more dangerous trek.

Edited by harostar on Jun 27th 2020 at 6:20:43 AM


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