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Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#65951: Jun 4th 2020 at 5:05:17 PM

Yeah, I agree. Added RWBY onto the page. Feel free to edit it.

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65952: Jun 4th 2020 at 5:14:11 PM

[up][up] No, before Salem manifested in his office. Ironwood starts out the whole mess in his office by ranting about how the evacuation was just a trick so that Salem's agents could sneak into Atlas.

We, the audience, know Atlas was compromised from the start since Cinder, Neo, and Watts were all there. But Ironwood believes that Atlas was secure until he authorized the evacuation. He blames the evacuation in Mantle for his office being infiltrated, because he can't even consider that they were already there. (This in spite of explicit evidence that Watts was coming and going between the cities for a while.)

Edited by harostar on Jun 4th 2020 at 8:16:06 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65953: Jun 4th 2020 at 5:25:01 PM

Eh, no offense Wyld as your a great troper but you can be a little overly strict about a lot of tropes

No offence taken. It's a fair point.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65954: Jun 4th 2020 at 5:40:52 PM

[up][up]Is one aspect I never quiet liked because it seen the bad guys can just do what they want with ease, in fact the hero need to stuff outside their control to win: Robyn having a truth semblence that allow yang and blake unexpected move to work out and willow have recording of jacques and watts.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65955: Jun 4th 2020 at 5:52:08 PM

Speaking of tropes, this just popped up on the New Tropes and I went huh.

The Elites Jump Ship

Hi, Volume 7 debate.

Ooh, new trope. I'd say that, yes, Ironwood's final plan does fall under this trope.

My thoughts exactly. While we can argue that there were some evacuees from Mantle already in Atlas, it's also noteworthy that Ironwood in his paranoia considers the evacuation itself a mistake because CLEARLY that is how Cinder and co got into Atlas.

I wouldn't say that Ironwood blames the evacuation on Cinder getting into Atlas. He throws out a lot of 'what if' scenarios (including the 'what if' of Salem wanting him to evacuate people by the thousands, which is what I presume you're thinking of), but he's throwing out these ideas in response to people trying to calm him down by addressing other points reasonably.

At that point, he's brainstorming worse-case scenarios of everything Salem might have planned for. He's not settling on one thing or another at that point, he's just panicking.

He only settles on what his position and interpretations are going to be once Salem has manifested and left. Until that point, he was rather fluidly throwing out scenarios until he stopped on the Robyn issue.

The primary issue for him, regarding the evacuation, is the school, not Atlas: he was talking in terms of leaving the Academy exposed at the time, rather than the entire city[1]. Once he settled on a position after Salem's manifestation, his primary concern was that it had tied up and exhausted his resources — both in terms of craft, equipment and manpower. Even if you ignore Cinder for a moment, it's easy to see why Salem would want him to have to conduct an evacuation; it leaves him and his men exhausted before Salem's even arrived.

His evacuation concerns are bigger than Cinder. It exhausted his resources, allowed the long-range sensors to go offline without notice, and brought Salem to his door unchallenged. The chess piece was his sign that Beacon was already unfolding. Again.

In Vale, he was angry with Ozpin over the CCT incident on the night of the ball because he was freaked out by the idea that Salem's people were already in Vale. It makes sense for him to be so obsessed with trying to prevent the same thing from happening in Atlas. It therefore makes sense that the chesspiece would make him think Salem's forces were already in Atlas regardless (after all, he's already seen the footage of Watts at Schnee Manor by this point).

Right now, all he can see is Beacon: specifically, his helplessness as he watched Beacon fall before his eyes because Ozpin wouldn't let him act... so, now he acts and does all the things he wished had been done in Vale, and gets the same outcome as Ozpin. On top of facing the same outcome as Ozpin, Salem promptly petitions him to accept the same outcome as Leo (become a collaborator). In both cases, he's so stuck in his PTSD that he's reliving every mistake he thinks Ozpin and Leo made and how his attempts to avoid those mistakes haven't just failed to solve the problem, they've made things worse.

[1] There's one other thing about Ozpin that he's trying to do the opposite of: Beacon and Atlas have different relationships with the cities they protect: Beacon was on the outskirts of Vale, partially separated by a small body of water. Atlas is in the centre of its city. Ozpin therefore had to split resources between the school and the city (and Amity, since Vale was hosting Amity), but Ironwood can protect his school and city at the same time. Ozpin emptied Beacon to make sure the students and Amity were evacuated, and that the city was defended. He was left to guard the Relic and CCT alone. Ironwood's trying to avoid doing that — he's attempting to correct Ozpin's mistake by withdrawing back to the school and consolidating there, which defends the city by default (but abandons Mantle in the process).

Everything is about him trying to avoid making Ozpin and Leo's decisions because he's so terrified those are mistakes he can't afford to repeat.

It's like he's trapped in one long PTSD attack that's refusing to end.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 4th 2020 at 2:07:28 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65956: Jun 4th 2020 at 6:27:33 PM

[up] He really, truly is and it's such an absolutely tragic situation. Because regardless of what some fans think, I do believe Ironwood is ultimately a good man with a caring heart. He's just.....he's a man raised in a culture that prizes strict adherence to rules, that once tried to wipe self-expression and art from the world to "keep it safe", and still struggles with the idea of their own superiority. He's a man that has been isolated from every resource he needs, particularly in the form of emotional support. He has people he can trust around him, that care about him. But as we've seen, Winter and Clover are ultimately subordinates that will follow him unquestioningly to their own doom. Their position in the chain of command meant they would blindly follow him, and didn't feel comfortable challenging him. That was one place where Ozpin got it right, compared to Ironwood. Ozpin gathered people around him that weren't afraid to challenge him or suggest other ideas. His most trusted subordinates were the two most likely to give him grief and argue decisions with him. Ironwood needed his own Glynda and Qrow, people to keep him on track with tough love or just plain sass.

Instead, Ironwood has taken the entire burden onto himself and misses some of the key elements of why others failed. He isn't Ozpin and he isn't Lionheart, their failures were their own.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65957: Jun 4th 2020 at 6:35:31 PM

[up][up]Is why salem conversation was so terrfying for him: is pretty much her telling that no, he did comit mistake, he did not stop her, that he CANT stop her and that indeed this decision to suport mantle was all part of is plan.

I dont know you but I feel in a way he is kinda shifting the blame to mantle because salem kinda make the idea that he waste time there, a sort of low key manipulation.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#65958: Jun 4th 2020 at 6:36:05 PM

[up][up]It's why I feel he hasn't crossed the MEH. And hopefully, by Volume 8's end, he'll either have a Heel–Face Turn, or if that's not possible, a Redemption Equals Death moment. Someone just needs to knock some sense into him first. Either Oscar or Qrow hopefully.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jun 4th 2020 at 9:37:08 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65959: Jun 4th 2020 at 6:56:46 PM

I think there's definitely ground for Ironwood to redeem himself. Him shooting Oscar was clearly such a desperate attempt to kill his own conscience and heart, to convince himself that he could do these terrible things. He's trying to sever these personal connections, as though those are the things that make him weak. When in reality, Ironwood is at his strongest when he's supporting others and has faith in them. When he's providing the technological and logistical support for others, as opposed to trying to take charge for himself and barrel through problems on his own.

During the Battle of Beacon, Ironwood succeeds at exactly what Ozpin asked him to do. He blames himself for the fall of Beacon, but he misses that when the shit hit the fan....Ozpin entrusted him to save the people. The other teachers were fighting too, but Ironwood is the one that Ozpin left to handle evacuating the school and festival grounds. He's the one that made sure they didn't lose an entire generation of young Huntsmen and Huntresses when the school fell. He saved the city of Vale.

But Ironwood can't see that.

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#65960: Jun 4th 2020 at 7:32:34 PM

[up][up] I mean, Would Hurt a Child who is trying to calm you down is a clear way to shot yourself to the MEH.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#65961: Jun 4th 2020 at 7:47:00 PM

No question, but the fact that he didn't actually succeed in killing said child is going to give him some leeway, morally speaking. Moral Luck is something that affects us on a meta level quite often. Because he failed to kill Oscar, he's still a tragic character trying to do what's necessary even if that means ignoring his conscience. If he had succeeded, he would be a flat-out villain now, rather than just an antagonist.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#65962: Jun 4th 2020 at 8:51:04 PM

Honestly my doubt he'll be redeemed isn't do to something he's done so far as much as he has a lot of simmularities to Adam and Salem.

There's a sort of pattern with that, of starting out very sympathetic with many redeeming qualities before giving all of it the Finger.

[up] Ehhh...Ironwood is definetly a sympathetic and tragic charachter, but I also think he's far from "just an antagonist not a villain". At least for now.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 5th 2020 at 12:13:15 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65963: Jun 5th 2020 at 5:23:08 AM

[up]I will said there diference: Salem never try to be good, but she go sympathy trait over time, Ironwood started good and sympathic and he was push near villany and Adam as asshole who the show seen afraid to actually make him sympathy in anyway whatsoever.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#65964: Jun 5th 2020 at 6:35:54 AM

Probably helps that Miles openly hated Adam.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#65965: Jun 5th 2020 at 6:54:48 AM

I have no real specific ideas here....

But to Spitball, we all make our Cinder origin theories based on the Disney / Perrault versions of the story.

What if parts of her story also take from the Other versions of the story?

Especially if she really is from Mistral, as it's a large composite between Rome / Greece and East Asian cultures. And 2 of the more ancient versions of the story come from Greece and China.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65966: Jun 5th 2020 at 7:09:51 AM

My idea was that cinder wanted to be a hunter and them something happen that crush her dream....

and them salem comes.....

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#65967: Jun 5th 2020 at 8:21:24 AM

So, I noticed there are moments when Raven suddenly yells her lines, especially towards the end of volume 5 (i.e. during Yang's “The Reason You Suck” Speech). Does that fall under the Suddenly Shouting trope? I could be wrong.

Edited by gjjones on Jun 5th 2020 at 11:21:53 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Slater130 Since: Jun, 2013
#65968: Jun 5th 2020 at 2:15:21 PM

Before the Dawn Preview first 2 Chapters: https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/before-the-dawn-rwby-book-2

There's heavy implications that Velvet's dad was part of Pietro's team.

After the second chapter look at the brown haired man on Pietro's left.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/5/55/V7_07_00049.png/revision/latest?cb=20191221163133

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#65969: Jun 5th 2020 at 3:23:04 PM

Wait... they mentioned we saw a half-Faunus back in Volume 1... is this implying Velvet was the half-Faunus? Cause unless her dad is hiding his trait, he looks human.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#65970: Jun 5th 2020 at 3:26:45 PM

Rabbit tail, perhaps? *shrugs*

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65971: Jun 5th 2020 at 3:36:32 PM

Oh shit, some nice details.

  • Professor Rumpole is tiny brown blingy Gylnda. Interesting, Coco noting people don't even know her age or anything else about her. Possible Summer Maiden?
  • Velvet's dad is the elusive Will Scarlett we've been wondering about. Will he pop up in Volume 8 since he's the missing Merry Man? He's an absentee dad because of his work in Atlas, but hooked Velvet up with a direct military source for hard light dust.

Edited by harostar on Jun 5th 2020 at 7:35:42 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#65972: Jun 5th 2020 at 4:03:55 PM

[up][up][up] based on the WoR episode, children of a human-faunus union are either human or faunus, for all intents and purposes. So it's totally possible Velvet is half-faunus by ancestry.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#65973: Jun 5th 2020 at 4:27:55 PM

[up]That's what I was suggesting. When they said we saw a half-Faunus in Volume 1, it was effectively a toss-up between her and Sun, but I always leaned more towards the idea it was Sun since part of his duet in "Like Morning Follows Night", namely the rap, suggests he has faced some... interesting things in life, likely in Vacuo.

See, you'll never understand
What I feel, what I see
What's going through my mind
How it feels being me
All these struggles, all these fights
Long days, longer nights
Trying to search for this happiness
Lost in the lights
.
But it seems that it's all
Just out of my sight
Just out of my reach,
Can't seem to get it right
Like I'm cursed with this turbulence
Placed in my life
Can't push or pull it,
Stuck up in this bull pit
Cycle of pain
All this stress in my brain
I'm just trying to maintain
You could go insane
But no matter what I do
The cries go unheard
.
Yet I still believe in you
Every breath, every word
Every smile, every glance
Could be another chance
That you'll finally see
The love that is me
So until that time
I'll follow every day
Every step of the way
And continue to say
This rap seems to be solely focused on Sun considering its only Lamar raping rather than a duet with Casey, and it suggests that Sun has been through a lot of crap, and that Blake was effectively one of the only lights in life.

And yes, songs can be used to hint at backstory since it was I'm the One that alluded to the idea Mercury was heavily abused first as well as "violated" by Marcus.

So, considering Sun is one of the only main characters (Yes, I still argue he's a main since he was Blake's deuteragonist in the Haven Saga and had a constant presence in the first five volumes before he was Put on a Bus) whose backstory is rather vague, I figured him being the half-Faunus was possible and tied to his mysterious backstory.

I didn't think it was Velvet because... well, she's an Ascended Extra and was originally just meant to be a One-Scene Wonder, so I didn't think they'd relegate her to that status since it seemed a bit odd to give that to someone who, at the time, was just a bit character.

Not complaining though. If Velvet's dad is one of the members of Pietro's group, then if Penny manages to survive and joins the group on their way to Vacuo, then it could give them a Commonality Connection and even hint at an even larger role for Velvet.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#65974: Jun 5th 2020 at 5:44:36 PM

There's a theory the one scientist chick in Pietros picture is Cinders mother.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#65975: Jun 5th 2020 at 5:56:04 PM

If that's the case then I call shenanigans. Seriously, I could buy one of the characters having a parent be in the same group as Pietro and Watts, but two? That would seem like a Contrived Coincidence mixed with One Degree of Separation. It would be close to Everyone Went to School Together levels.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.

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