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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65926: Jun 2nd 2020 at 7:47:49 PM

I'm also ignoring the "6-8 Month" period since they later recanted that statement.

Ah. Did they indeed? I can't say I'm unhappy with that. Do you know where they said it?

I strongly suspect Salem and Ozpin are going to die together at the very end of the show, possibly even in a shared Redemption Equals Death / Heroic Sacrifice, and that Oz will have the final words of the show for maximum Book-Ends.

Ignoring the tropes for now, I'm pretty much expecting that kind of ending, too. For me, it's been very evident that Who Wants to Live Forever? is very much in effect and that they both want to die and be free. It's part of why I have the theory that Salem's really plan is that she's trying to stop the world from turning so that her curse ends that way (by summoning the gods when humanity is at it's worst) and why I think Ozma's last words were going to be 'I wasn't' when Salem killed his first reincarnation (she said 'We were finally free!' and he said 'I—' but was cut off by her killing him).

I've noticed it's fairly common for Oz to say 'I—' and be cut off by someone. Usually at a moment when it seems like he's going to say something significant.

As for Cinder, she doesn't even have The Dragon status going for her. None of Salem's subordinates are The Dragon. None of them are The Starscream either.

Fair reminder that by Word of God, they will keep making RWBY so long as the fans want more of it. So Salem and Ozma finally being able to rest isn't guaranteed to be the end of the series.

They said that this story had an end but that Monty had also written notes for stories after this one ended if there was still an appetite for the show. So, RWBY is in the situation where it could end and be done or it could go Red vs. Blue on us and still be going a decade later.

So, as usual, I have a question regarding some potential tropes: given that Yang realized too late that Raven was telling the truth about Salem by the beginning of Volume 6, do you think Raven is The Cassandra in this scenario?

No.

Does anyone think the Wyvern is going to be important down the line?

Yes. It'll be Ruby's full-circle battle. The one where she's finally mastered her power to the extent where she can defeat it properly.

I'm expecting it to involve a full circle for Oz, too. Beacon will be the last school they come back to and that's not just going to be significant for the heroes (who started there) but it's going to be significant for Oscar. Oscar himself has never been to Beacon and seen it with his own two eyes and it's probable that Ozpin himself hasn't had the chance to truly see the state of it. Oscar may never have been to Beacon before, but it's the school he's going to be most naturally drawn to.

I have a very strong image in my head of Ruby, Jaune and Oscar standing in the ruins of Ozpin's office with only the debris, wind, frozen Wyvern and their memories for company.

Prior to something unfreezing the Wyvern, of course.

Midnight struck one last time that night, Never to be seen again. The clock forever stopped in the waltz with Fire, Turned to ashes in Scorching Caress."

Eh, that looks to me like a summary of Cinder's fight with Pyrrha. She used her weapons against Pyrrha, the office (and therefore the clock and CCT) was destroyed in the fight, and Cinder used her Semblance to turn Pyrrha to ash at the end of it.

Hell, if you want me to get metaphorical about that little piece, the reference to the clock stopping reminds me of the song 'My Grandfather's Clock' (you know, 'It stopped short, never to go again, when the old man died'). And, that, is a reference to time itself (in this case, Ozpin and the clock both died and his office was practically a memorial for Time). Not that Ozpin is relevant to this poem because the poem is about Pyrrha's death, not Ozpin's. And, while that day stopped time for a lot of characters (including Ironwood and Vale and, technically, the Wyvern, too), Pyrrha's death stopped time for far fewer people: Cinder's act froze her in time, obssessed with Ruby, and it froze Jaune in time, too. He couldn't even confront the reality of that until Argus.

The thing is, as I've said in a recent post, Ruby doesn't have a clue Cinder's got it in for her and certainly doesn't reciprocate. Jaune does though. But I've gone into my theories about Cinder being Jaune's enemy rather than Ruby's many times in the past, so I'll keep it out of this post.

The bit that references her grimmification is this 'Cinder is now something more than human... And simultaneously... something less'. 'More than human' is the Maiden power and 'something less' is her grimmification reference. And that's a pre-arm reference, I suspect, so is a reference to the parasite (which, after all, is how she became 'something more' in the first place). But, I've been speculating ever since V4 that the Grimm arm is from the parasite and not grafted on from a different Grimm (and that she'll one day open her scarred eye to reveal a Grimm eye). But I've been speculating about grimmification ever since her flashback (imagine how happy I was to see her shoulder in V7), so I probably predisposed to interpret it this way.

Nobody at Beacon was really sure why Velvet was taking pictures of weapons (other than her team) up until the fall

That was fairly obvious by the way Ruby reacted to Velvet showing her (and the audience) the photo of 'Sun'. The fandom immediately realised she was photographing the weapons, but Ruby clearly thought it was just a bad photo.

Then there was the other characters clearly not having a clue how Velvet could fight until she revealed all against the Paladins.

The Summer Maiden was featured in a draft of the book, where she saves Fox from Bertilak

Well, that confirms that Carmine isn't the Summer Maiden and probably rules out Slate, too.

The Ravagers were originally going to be called the Camazotz, they allude to the Mayan bat god of the same name

See? This confirms they were supposed to be bats, which it seemed fairly clear since that was the most consistent description of them right the way through the book until the very end of the book where three of them show up and... get described as a 'big black bird'.

That was around the time of the 'Ozpin rising from his desk twice without sitting down in between' error, too.

God. Okay. Someone else with the same theory as me (came to it from a slightly different angle, but ended up in the same place). Maybe I should try and find my previous posts on the subject of Jaune being Cinder's enemy instead of Ruby.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 2nd 2020 at 3:51:53 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65927: Jun 2nd 2020 at 7:52:02 PM

[up]Maybe raven foreshowing that shane alluded back in the latter means this?.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#65928: Jun 3rd 2020 at 12:43:21 AM

I read an.....interesting theory by the one tumblr above too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/luimnigh.tumblr.com/post/190232842239/how-to-tell-if-a-rwby-character-is-sharing-their/amp

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#65929: Jun 3rd 2020 at 7:07:27 AM

I mean, if it’s not an animation goof it could be quite interesting.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#65930: Jun 3rd 2020 at 9:46:07 AM

As for Cinder, she doesn't even have The Dragon status going for her. None of Salem's subordinates are The Dragon. None of them are The Starscream either.

We have Tyrian's remark when Ruby assumes the person he's working for (and gushing about) is Cinder to the effect of "only in her wildest dreams!" It does seem like she's ambitious enough to want it all.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65931: Jun 3rd 2020 at 9:48:15 AM

He said "she wished!" and consider how Watts and Tyrian shit on her(I mean tyrian make a "eye" signal in first episode of 4 volume) is probably be that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#65932: Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:03:41 PM

Also. Cause I feel like he was ignored a bit

RE:Wyld

I like your Raven rewrite for Becoming the Mask, and as a side note I'm not sure Ironwood counts for Became Their Own Antithesis. He changed, but he's more a case of someone who's a good guy but nonthless with a ton of flaws, and those flaws slowly but steadily grow and consume him.

For Cinder I'd say Replace Kung-Fu Wizard with Magic Knight, and I think she could get her own charachter page.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65933: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:08:23 PM

Yeah, I think Cinder is beginning to become an enormous folder that will likely only continue to expand. ESPECIALLY if we get focal stuff next volume.

Magic Knight sounds correct to me. She's balanced between physical combat with her swords/bow and her Semblance/Maiden powers.

Of course, it seems typical for Maidens to be like that. They always seem to only use their magic sparingly and as a last resort, relying primarily on their physical strength first and foremost. Fria is the only one we've seen go straight to NUKE IT WITH MAGIC.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#65934: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:26:59 PM

Probably no coincidence that she's also the oldest and most experienced.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65935: Jun 3rd 2020 at 6:05:25 PM

Thanks for the response. I've got no problem with having a separate page for Cinder if that's what everyone wants to do.

Shall we just call the page 'Cinder Fall'? We can leave her name on Salem's page and just link it to Cinder's page the way we've done for other characters that are on a different page to one they're also associated with. A straight cut/paste, keep it simple, and it should only take a couple of seconds to do.

What about Cinder and Bare-Fisted Monk?

I think Fria going into nuke mode was a sign of how far gone she was. She was left with one driving instinct — to protect the Maiden power. What she does say to Cinder and Penny is something I find interesting because it strongly implies that this plan to use Winter as her successor was done with her consent. That's the job she was talking about: it was her job to remember Winter for the day when it became necessary to pass the power to her. However, she could remember Ironwood and that she had a mission, but she can't remember who she was waiting for.

I've still got a head canon that Fria is related to Nora and that she was drawn to Penny not only because Penny was kind and compassionate in her dying minutes, but also because Penny's complexion made her look like family (red hair) — not in any conscious way, but enough to help her instinctively trust Penny.

Something that did occur to me the other day is the idea that all Maidens must be fighters. It stands to reason that this doesn't have to be the case. If the Maiden power passes randomly sometimes, then it's inevitable that it could end up in the body of a person without any combat training. After all, Ozpin ended up paired with Oscar, who didn't have any background in combat (beyond a couple of tussles with the occasional Grimm, which is likely something most homesteaders will have familiarity with). I still want to know what happened to his parents — and whether his aunt ever put out flyers asking if anyone had seen a missing teenager.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:34:02 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#65936: Jun 3rd 2020 at 6:19:41 PM

Bare-Fisted Monk is technically a subtrope of Weapon Of Choice; it's more about fists as weapons than a character trope (and it's definitely not about being a monk). Hazel counts, but Cinder is a bit more iffy. The example is using it as "she can fight unarmed when she has no other option," which is Good Old Fisticuffs, but that trope is more about a lack of training—and Cinder definitely has unarmed training.

Feels like we're missing a couple unarmed tropes in there.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65937: Jun 3rd 2020 at 6:38:16 PM

I think we might be, too. Should I move Cinder to Good Old Fisticuffs then or just remove Bare-Fisted Monk without replacement? I think Bare-Fisted Monk is misuse for her but, as you say, it feels like 'trained unarmed combat' is a trope we should really have.

The reason I was concerned about Hazel is that he was just using a HULK!SMASH style, which is hardly trained combat — and that seems more like Good Old Fisticuffs.

It feels like there should be a trope that covers the kind of fighter Hazel is because it's not uncommon to see the power-fighter who's all about the overwhelming strength and power in battle rather than skilled techniques, but who doesn't fall under the kind of 'street smart' style usually associated with the Good Old Fisticuffs trope. I know we have tropes like Unskilled, but Strong, but it feels like we're missing a relevant combat style here as well.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:40:18 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#65938: Jun 3rd 2020 at 6:40:14 PM

[up]Doesn't Cinder also use swords often?

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65939: Jun 3rd 2020 at 6:41:34 PM

Most of the time, yes. But she can fight unarmed if she doesn't have them. It's the norm for the adult Huntsman-quality fighters to be able to fight with both weapons and unarmed, so singling Cinder out for this and very few others seems weird to me. That's why Ruby was singled out; it's undesirable for a Huntsman's combat options to be so limited.

Just for comparison: Qrow is troped under Good Old Fisticuffs instead of Bare-Fisted Monk, but he's a trained unarmed combat fighter, too. Unlike Qrow and Cinder, Yang's much more centred on unarmed combat than they are because even her weapon is designed around unarmed combat; she's therefore troped under Boxing Battler instead. It feels wrong to trope both Cinder and Hazel as Bare-Fisted Monk.

The other characters using Bare-Fisted Monk are Ren, Sun, Arslan, Kobalt and Ghira.

I think Kobalt is misuse because it's been troped solely on the basis of him disarming Oscar barehanded during training, which could be any trope. Ren, Sun, Arslan and Ghira feel more correct than either Cinder or Hazel.

It's not like Neo's been troped as Bare-Fisted Monk either, and her style is more physical than Cinder's normal style is.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:56:34 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65940: Jun 4th 2020 at 12:03:27 AM

Yeah, it seems like the previous Spring wasn't even remotely trained as a fighter and struggled with being expected to become one. Both Lionheart and Raven talk about her struggling with it. She ran from Haven because it overwhelmed her, and if we believe Raven at all, she could never handle being expected to be this protector of the world.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65941: Jun 4th 2020 at 9:39:16 AM

Does the FNDM have a Gotta Catch Them All competition going on that I don't know about where we've got to try to find a way to fit every single trope on this wiki onto the RWBY pages, no matter how much misuse and shoehorning has to happen to achieve it?

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#65942: Jun 4th 2020 at 9:43:22 AM

Yeah, there's definetly a big tendancy of RWBY fans to try and trope as many things as they possibly can. They are the reason the Death Battle page made it a rule you can't list stuff about a character that aren't mentioned during the episode, because RWBY fans were trying to add too much.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#65943: Jun 4th 2020 at 10:10:21 AM

I still haven't seen Death Battle. Well, I have seen Carolina versus the Meta, but that was by accident, and I couldn't figure out the point of it.

The music was cool though.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#65944: Jun 4th 2020 at 10:51:22 AM

@Wyld: There are certain fandoms that just do that. I remember Mass Effect was really bad back in its heyday.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jun 4th 2020 at 1:52:14 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65945: Jun 4th 2020 at 10:58:03 AM

Yeah one critism of tv trope that can be made is that very often fill tropes by devout fandoms rather than how important a work is, you can see important books need more job while animes often have pages and pages full.

it is what it is.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#65946: Jun 4th 2020 at 2:03:33 PM

Eh, no offense Wyld as your a great troper but you can be a little overly strict about a lot of tropes

Things are really about to get Fun around here
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65947: Jun 4th 2020 at 3:27:28 PM

Speaking of tropes, this just popped up on the New Tropes and I went huh.

The Elites Jump Ship

Hi, Volume 7 debate.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#65948: Jun 4th 2020 at 3:31:59 PM

Fairly certain Ironwood's plan to take Atlas "and push it somewhere else!" counts for that new trope.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#65949: Jun 4th 2020 at 3:40:03 PM

[up] My thoughts exactly. While we can argue that there were some evacuees from Mantle already in Atlas, it's also noteworthy that Ironwood in his paranoia considers the evacuation itself a mistake because CLEARLY that is how Cinder and co got into Atlas.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#65950: Jun 4th 2020 at 4:52:24 PM

[up]I think he consider a mistake because it consider a distraction while Salem show up in his grim dick fortress.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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