Okay, there's a question on the Salem's Faction character page asking if Cinder should be given her own character page because her folder's starting to get quite long. If she is to have one, I'll probably do a thorough scan of her folder. I spotted a load of misuse a few days ago, and that was a casual scan. I also took two tropes to the Is This An Example? thread, which haven't had responses, so I could use some feedback here.
Is Cinder Bare-Fisted Monk and Kung-Fu Wizard?
I think Kung-Fu Wizard is easy misuse (but a case could be made for Magic Knight). However, Bare-Fisted Monk has a trope description that warns that if the work's setting considers unarmed combat to be a norm, the trope isn't likely to be in effect. RWBY has that setting (Huntsmen are supposed to be capable in both weapons and unarmed), BUT the exclusive unarmed combat this trope is looking for isn't so normal. Most characters are either weapons or mixed weapons/unarmed. Cinder isn't an unarmed specialist, she's the work's norm (mixed). It feels like she's being troped solely for the Neo fight, which was not her norm. Hazel also has it, but he was a 'HULK!SMASH!' fighter, so that seems like misuse, too.
Anyway, what do people think?
- Should Cinder have her own character page?
- Are Cinder and Hazel Bare-Fisted Monk?
- Is Cinder Kung-Fu Wizard?
- Bare-Fisted Monk: Cinder has displayed the ability to fight competently without weapons, such as when she infiltrated Vale's CCT and when she ambushed Amber. However, when she returns to Little Miss to collect the information she's requested, she's forced into a bar brawl. She abstains from using her Maiden powers in public and is thus limited to unarmed combat. The skill that had been previously hinted at is shown in full against her more specialised opponent and shows a full range of abilities that encompass punches, kicks, acrobatics and claw swipes from her Grimm arm.
- Kung-Fu Wizard: As the Fall Maiden, Cinder has access to incredible magical powers, creating streams of fire, turning shards of molten metal into ice or glass projectiles, and being able to completely immolate a corpse to ash with a single touch. She's no slouch in close combat either, being able to easily overwhelm Ruby in sword-to-scythe combat.
Hazel Rainart
- Bare-Fisted Monk: Hazel doesn't rely on a weapon for battle, he fights with his fists and arms. Although when he carries Dust crystals that he can stab his arms with to power up, his style changes to lightning-powered bare-fisted blows.
I don't think we're dealing with that trope either.
The situation Oz and Salem are in is a complicated mess. Of the things we're certain about, we know that Salem wants the four Relics, the four Maidens (or at least their powers) and the schools defeated/destroyed.
Her victory in Vale only netted her two of those three goals: the school and the Fall Maiden. She didn't get the Relic of Choice and she currently has problems controlling her Fall Maiden.
She failed in Haven. The school survived, the Relic of Knowledge was denied her and she didn't get the Spring Maiden's powers. Also, her avenue for the any of the Maiden powers currently remains linked to the AWOL Fall Maiden.
Atlas is currently unfolding. The Relic of Knowledge has fallen into the Fall Maiden's hands, but has yet to be delivered to Salem, so... like the Fall Maiden, the Relic of Knowledge is technically in an AWOL status.
To achieve full victory in each Kingdom, her plans actually need three wins per kingdom.
By splitting up the four Relics, Ozpin is forcing her to have to win multiple times to achieve her final goal.
Even prior to that, we can't say the trope was in effect. That's why they're stuck in a stalemate situation. Both of them need to stack a series of victories before they can 'truly win'... and it's proving to be a massive headache for the both of them.
If he was, they would have no reason to worry about him getting help from Vacuo.
That's pretty much why I bought the book in the end. I've seen a lot of fans saying that the book 'proves' Theodore is working with Salem. Yet, Salem and her subordinates seemed extremely worried about Vacuo and Atlas joining forces, which doesn't make sense.
Him being his own villain, or working with a non-Salem party, I can see. But not Salem herself. She's not behaving like Vacuo's an ally. She's behaving like Vacuo is a threat. Of course, for a being of pure destruction, she might simply be drawn to the Relic of Destruction and place more value on it than the other Relics. (Unlike Oz, who clearly places the most value on the Relic of Choice.)
In the end, I decided, I'm just going to have to read the book for myself — several people here have said it's actually not a bad read, so I decided to go ahead.
I still haven't read it yet (I was catching up on RvB). I don't even know if Theodore is his personal or family name yet.
Edited by Wyldchyld on May 30th 2020 at 5:05:27 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.There's no technicality here. Salem made it clear at the end of Volume 3 what she's after. She wants Oz to watch as she destroys his works in front of him, and then she wants to watch him burn. Haven Academy is still standing and still functional. It needs a new headmaster and it lost some (but not all) of its teachers. The school, however, was saved. It's why the Faunus got such a good outcome — the point was to save the school, and they succeeded.
The Kingdom is lacking Huntsmen. The school is lacking a headmaster. The Battle of Haven occurred while school was out and the reason it was empty was because Leo had sent everyone home. It can still function without a headmaster; it cannot provide the level of defence for the Relic of Knowledge that Oz requires (ignoring the absence of the Spring Maiden, of course), but it can function as a normal combat school (which is all the world cares about since the world doesn't know about Salem or the Relics).
Edited by Wyldchyld on May 30th 2020 at 5:01:52 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.That, and, well, the public not knowing that their Faunus headmaster was personally responsible for crippling Mistral's forces and helped in the Fall of Beacon.
Edited by Psyga315 on May 30th 2020 at 9:08:49 AM
@Wyld: My guess regarding Theodore is that, like the other Ozluminatti he'll be a foil to Oz, having "succumbed" to a particular set of inner demons; Lionheart being cowardice, Ironwood being heartlessness/He Who Fights Monsters, and Theodore being selfishness, with it turning out that he's been using the resources Ozpin entrusted him with for his own personal gain.
Regarding the fate of Atlas, Salem getting the Atlesian council to bend the knee sounds like it could totally happen. I’d that happen I’d see Ironwood, if alive gathering whatever forces he can and fleeing the kingdom, with his newly stateless military heading for Vale or Haven or Vaccuo and setting up a government in exile, whether or not the local authorities agree or not.
Of course the narrative that comes out of Atlas doesn’t mention Salem at all, instead accusing Ironwood of attempting a coup, and fleeing with his loyalists once said coup failed, with Watts providing the “evidence” to back up said claims.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 30th 2020 at 5:36:44 AM
One speculation I had with the Crowns motives, is that Its simultaneously an inversion of what Vacuos general lifestyle is and the Countries general ideals(The Social Darwinism) taken to its natural Extreme.
The fact he wanted kids who had powerful semblances, gave me the idea he's a Super Supremacist of sorts, who wants things to be ruled by both himself and the "strong" to enforce order on the world.
If he's Theodore it would also make him a Foil to Oz. As his goal is simmular in a way to what Salem wanted her and Ozma to do, ruling others with there power.
As a side note, part of me wonders if the Crown might not be either with Salem or even a major villain in the Show. Instead I kinda think he'll end up just being a book Villain.
Edited by Kylotrope on May 30th 2020 at 12:05:01 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereI honestly kind of hope the series won't ignore the books, even if it's probably best to not make them required reading for the audience once they reach Vacuo.
In terms of the Relics, I do suddenly wonder if there is any particular reasoning behind their locations. We assume that Oz has chosen to keep the Crown in Vale so that he could personally oversee guarding it. I think I'd be interested in a flashback to the aftermath of the Great War, in terms of who exactly Oz chose to be the first headmasters and the process of deciding where to send each Relic.
Also for your viewing pleasure: Shrek 2 + Ironwood vs Watts works a little too well
.
I'm not saying they should ignore the Books, just that Its possible the storyline with the Crown might not be set up for something in the show but instead part of a self contained story.
What would all your guys theories on the Crown be if he's not Theodore?
Edited by Kylotrope on May 30th 2020 at 2:55:30 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereNow that I've read the novel (it's actually half-decent, although there are some glaring errors in there that should have been caught before the book was published), I'm actually not sure The Crown is Theodore.
Bertilak tells Fox that his boss isn't someone Fox knows, but he's sure that boss will have a nice, fat file on Team CFVY. By that point, Bertilak knows that Team CFVY have been studying in Shade for over a year and know Theodore. During this same conversation, Bertilak tells Fox his own opinions on Theodore (which paint Theodore as Ozpin 2.0).
That doesn't rule out Theodore being involved with The Crown (or at least knowing who they are), but it does suggest it's a different person.
Or that Bertilak was lying. Which is possible, but doesn't really fit the flavour of the conversation the two were having.
As to some of the glaring errors I mentioned: within the span of a few lines, Ozpin manages to rise from his desk twice (without having sat down in between) and the novel can't make up its mind whether Ravagers are bird or bats or whether it desperately wants the creature to be a bird-bat hybrid. At one point in the story it's called 'a bat' and later in the story it's called a 'black bird'.
What I will say is this: after reading the novel I really want to see how Cinder functions in Vacuo. Forget her Maiden powers, her Semblance alone should absolutely insane there.
Also, regarding the fandom theory that Carmine is the Summer Maiden, I don't get that vibe from the story at all.
What I would say is that I do get a Maiden vibe from Slate.
Edited by Wyldchyld on May 31st 2020 at 12:17:07 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.![]()
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How can it be over a year? Even if CFVY transferred to Shade very soon after the fall of Beacon, the Timeskip was only several months. After that, there's only a month timelapse between RNJR's arrival at Haven and the Battle of Haven, followed by another two weeks before they took the Argus Limited. Unless "several months" meant eleven months, there shouldn't have been a full year since, as based on the fact SSSN is staring in Before the Dawn, After the Fall is set before the start of Volume 6.
I speculate that there is going to be some important event either called "The Dawn" or "The Dawn of X" is gonna happen.
The new book is called "Before the Dawn", contrasting the first book called "After the Fall" Wich referenced the Fall of Beacon.
And in the First Episode there's a shot that Focuses on the name of the dust Store Roman was about to rob, "From Dust Til Dawn""
Things are really about to get Fun around hereSign me up for that. I rather enjoy every time Cinder attempts to steal more magic, and gets stomped by an older Maiden.
That's not quite what I meant. I was only talking about her Semblance. We're talking about miles and miles of sand underfoot, sand constantly blowing everywhere, so there's a lot in the atmosphere. She can superheat this into glass, the shapes and purposes for which are limited only by her imagination (well, and Aura).
The versatility of what she could do with that power, given the Vacuo environment, is phenomenal.
On the subject of Cinder's win-lose record, however, I'd actually prefer to see her obtain a win — and figure out how she can fight Ruby; she's got an It's Personal grudge to Revenge Before Reason levels, and yet she has to run away every time Ruby looks at her. That makes for a rather boring hero/villain interaction — especially since Ruby still doesn't know that Cinder's got a grudge against her, still has no idea she is the person who maimed Cinder, and the heroes still currently have no way of figuring out how she stole Amber's power.
Unfortunately, while Ruby now has enough information to figure out why Cinder triggered her power at Haven (the Grimm arm), she still has no reason to think that Cinder was vulnerable to her power at Beacon (because Wyvern's presence confuses the matter).
Ruby has to learn that she's the reason Cinder is so maimed before the heroes can start exploring the ramifications of that.
Given how many times Salem has tried to clarify the patient, manipulative approach to Cinder, I'm hoping that the reason we've reached a point where Cinder is becoming a borderline useless villain is so that she will have some character growth where she learns Yang's leason: fight smarter instead of harder.
The point here is that I currently think we're missing something in the Cinder/Ruby dynamic. It's hollow because the story has, so far, given Ruby no ability to learn anything about her villain beyond 'she works for Salem and she killed Pyrrha' and, even then, the story gives the pair no ability to actually explore the dynamic because it keeps creating reasons for stopping that dynamic from happening in the first place.
Yes, that did jump out at me when I was reading the book. Timeline is definitely an issue I had with the novel... but there are some timeline issues with the main show, too. Anyway, this is what I put together from the show and the novel to create an incredibly rough (and sometimes arbitrary) timeline.
Note: I cannot see any way for Team CFVY to have been at Shade for over a year. I can't even put them at 11 months. My estimate is that they've been at Shade for 9 months and that the novel ends at around the middle of Volume 7... which is about 14 months after the fall of Beacon.
Here's the summary of the timeline I've got in my head (how my thoughts put it together is in a folder at the end of this post).
- t=0
- Battle of Beacon occurs
- t=1 month
- Volume 3 finale timeskip (autumn to winter): a couple of weeks.
- Team CFVY fights for Beacon
- Ruby and Jaune plan a getaway with the kids
- Teams RNJR & CFVY depart Vale at the same time on different journeys.
- t=4 months
- Team CFVY reaches Vacuo.
- t=5 months
- Team CFVY reaches Shade Academy after spending 4 weeks in the desert.
- t=9 months
- Maximum time for timeskip between Volume 3-4 (6-8 months is the estimate we've been given by the creators, I'm going to use the maximum for the sake of it).
- Team CFVY have been at Shade for 4 months.
- Coincides with Volume 4, Episode 1.
- t=11 months
- Team RNJR reach Kuroyuri, and shortly afterwards, Mistral.
- Team CFVY have been at Shade for 6 months.
- t=11.5 months
- Coincides with Volume 5, Episode 1.
- Team RNJR meet Leo and Oscar
- Team CFVY have been at Shade for 6.5 months.
- t=12.5 months
- The Battle of Haven occurs.
- Team CFVY have been at Shade for 7.5 months.
- t=13 months
- Volume 6, Episode 1 occurs two weeks after the Battle of Haven.
- Teams RWBY, JNR, Oscar and Qrow leave Mistral for Argus.
- Team SSSN leaves Mistral for Vacuo.
- Assuming airship travel, Team SSSN probably only take a day at most to reach Vacuo.
- Team CFVY have been at Shade for 8 months.
- t=14 months
- Team SSSN cross the desert
- Team CFVY have been at Shade for 9 months.
- The events of the novel occur, ending with Team CFVY and Team SSSN meeting up a couple of miles outside Shade.
- This is equivalent to approximately the middle of Volume 7 (which technically might also qualify for being the end of Volume 7, too).
It took Team CFVY three months to travel to Vacuo by foot. Coco's plan was for them to reach Vacuo by winter and then to reach Shade by second semester.
Volume 3 takes place in autumn, and Volume 3's final episode has a timeskip of unknown amount, where autumn passes into winter — far enough into winter for deep snow to have settled everywhere (I say that because both the show and novel agree that Vale is a temperate climate without too many weather extremes — in a temperate climate, snow tends to take a little while to get into its groove, and this is an island that's not far above sea level). So, we could be talking a few weeks to a few months.
In the novel, Team CFVY stay in Vale, helping to try and recover Beacon for weeks until the last day of evacuations. They then leave for Vacuo; they travel by foot because Vale is only permitting evacuations to home kingdom, so Fox could fly to Vacuo, but the rest of them can't.
In the show, Volume 4, Episode 3 ties in with this information: Yang's watching the news when it mentions that the Vale council is continuing to ban all air traffic except for evacuations, and the environment looks like springtime; Sun also tells Blake that his team flew home to Mistral and he left Vale on foot to follow Blake; we don't really know what time of year it is for them since they're on the open ocean (albeit rather sunny and calm).
So, that finale timeskip of indeterminate length sounds like it should be the period in which Team CFVY spend a few weeks helping Vale then travel to Vacuo. That should mean that when Team RNJR first starts their to Mistral, Team CFVY is just arriving in Vacuo.
Great. Except, not so much.
It doesn't feel right for the finale episode's timeskip to consist of months as opposed to weeks. It feels weird to cram Team CFVY's timeline into the sense of flow we get from the episode itself. Especially since the whole of Volume 3 occurs in autumn, it would mean that Yang spent months in bed, or mostly in bed (which as anyone suffering from serious depression would point out isn't actually unheard of), and it would mean that it took months for Ruby and Jaune to plan their secret getaway together with the kids.
It also doesn't make sense for Team CFVY to leave during Volume 4, Episode 3 because Yang's timeline indicates it's either spring or summer, so winter has passed and Vale's been dealing with evacuations for many months. Team CFVY's timeline in the novel is weeks, not months. From the show's perspective, however, a few years ago, the fandom had argued that evacuations taking months to resolve was unrealistic, but now we're watching a pandemic unfolding around us and witnessing multiple countries who still haven't evacuated their citizens three months after western lockdowns have started and as much as five months after some Asian lockdowns have started, so that may not be so unrealistic; the news clip implies that Vale council had a meeting to discuss whether to extend the ban into another week, suggesting that they'd been planning on opening up air traffic by that point which, again, has a more realistic feel these days, given what's been going on in the world.
So, again, the issue appears to be how the novel fits into the show's timeline. It feels like the best way to slot the novel into the show's timeline is for the finale's timeskip to consist of weeks, those being the weeks Team CFVY spend helping Beacon as much as they can before they decide to leave. That means Team CFVY and Team RNJR leave on their respective walking journeys at approximately the same time. We just have to ignore the novel's reference to the winter season and chalk it up to the novel getting the Volume 1-3 seasons wrong.
If we work it that way, Volume 4, Episode 1 starts 6-8 months after the journey began. Let's use the maximum for convenience's sake, so the episode starts 8 months after the journey began (and 9 months since the Battle of Beacon). That mean Team CFVY has been at Shade for approximately 5 months while Team RNJR is still on the road.
We don't know how much time it takes to cross the desert, the book is never entirely clearly. All it's clear about is that if you manage the crossing and reach Shade alive, you've proven yourself a survivor and will be welcome. So, it could take CFVY a few days or a few weeks to cross the desert. Let's assume a month for simplicity's sake.
That means Team CFVY will have been at Shade for 4 months during Volume 4, Episode 1.
We don't know how much time passes from the beginning to the end of Volume 4, although we do know that many weeks pass (at the very least, the journey from Shion to Kuroyuri took weeks).
We just don't know how 'weeks' translates in terms of 'months'. If we do a bare minimum of 'weeks' and translate that into 'two months', that would give us 10 months to reach Kuroyuri and therefore 6 months at Shade Academy.
We know RNJR waited for Qrow to heal before going to meet Leo, so there's a short timeskip between Volumes 4-5. How long that timeskip is for, who knows. It could be a couple of days, a week, two weeks, etc. I'm going to estimate two weeks for the hell of it (it really is arbitrary at this point, but he was close to death and 2 weeks is a nice 0.5 to pluck out of thin air).
So, let's say Volume 5, Episode 1 happens 10.5 months after the journey starts and 11.5 months after the Battle of Beacon (therefore that's 6.5 months at Shade). The Battle of Haven occurs a month after Team RNJR meet Leo and Oscar, so that's 7.5 months at Shade. Even if we decide to round our numbers to make the Battle of Haven a year after the Battle of Beacon (in the classic tradition of serial shows where everyone ends each season a year older than they ended the previous season), Team CFVY's been at Shade for 8 months.
So, I can push my believability to 8 months as of the end of Volume 5. But, let's stick with 7.5 months for now.
There's a timeskip between Volume 5 and 6 of two weeks (Qrow's letter mentions the timeskip). So, two weeks after the Battle of Haven, Team SSSN leaves Haven to go to Shade. Team CFVY have now been at Shade for 8 months.
We have no idea how they travel, whether it's by foot or air. Air makes the most sense — not just for practicality, but because a continent hop is involved; a foot journey means boat travel and Neptune doesn't do water. So, it's got to be air travel. It doesn't change the fact that we don't know how long an air trip to Vacuo will take, but we can assume it's not going to take months. The longest current airplane flight in the world is a direct flight from Singapore to Newark (New Jersey, US). It lasts approximately 18.5 hours. So, let's put down the maximum journey time between Mistral and Vacuo as 24 hours. At most.
The novel implies a few times that it's unlikely people will be flying directly to Shade because it's all about crossing the desert. When Team SSSN shows up at the end of the book, they're still on their way to Shade but stopped to help some people. So, they were crossing the desert by foot. That suggests that the closest ports to Shade are at the outskirts of the desert. So, let's give Team SSSN the same estimate I gave Team CFVY (4 weeks).
So, they'll reach Shade 1 month after Volume 6, Episode 1, which puts Team CFVY at 9 months in Shade.
So, it could take Team SSSN a couple of days or a couple of weeks to cross the desert and reach Shade (assuming, as I did, that they went as far as Vacuo by airship in the first place). Even if I estimate weeks, I'm not going to estimate more than a single month for now. So, they'll reach Shade 1 month after Volume 6, Episode 1.
So, that's a maximum of 9 months at Shade Academy, for a total of 14 months after the Battle of Beacon.
And at this point, we've reached the middle of Volume 7 because Volume 6 happens across the space of a week (give or take — see Rebel Falcon's timeline) and the first half of Volume 7 happens across a few weeks; there are some nebulous timeskips, but Pietro definitely says 'weeks' have passed between Episodes 1 and 7.
And that's before Before the Dawn starts. Since Volume 7, Episodes 8-13 pretty much happen over the course of a single night, the middle of Volume 7 is almost the same as saying the end of Volume 7. So, the second novel is either going to occur immediately where the first leaves off, so it might start around the end of Volume 7, but where it is in relation to Volume 8 will depend on how much time passes between the end of Volume 7 and beginning of Volume 8 (given the situation, we're probably all assuming it'll pick up immediately where V7 left off, or at least with only a very short 'scene skip' type gap).
My suspicion is that the novel will not be written with it being current to Volume 7/8, but more like Volume 6. I don't think the timeline lends itself to that, however, but these are just my thoughts.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 1st 2020 at 8:56:46 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.I tried resolving the Timeline myself. For the sake of the Timeline though, lets leave the details revealed in After the Fall out until we have a clear cut idea. I'm also ignoring the "6-8 Month" period since they later recanted that statement. The key to all of this ultimately lies with Blake's Timeline.
- To start with, lets establish a point of reference for the timeline's beginning, that being the Fall of Beacon. At the Fall of Beacon, Ruby proceeded to use her Silver Eyes to petrify the Wyvern and was left unconscious as a result. We aren't given an exact timescale for how long Ruby was unconscious, but for the sake of estimation as well as the fact Tai was sleeping in a chair next to her bed, lets assume she woke up a day or two after the Fall of Beacon.
- After talking with Yang, Ruby learned that Jacques came and took Weiss back to Atlas with him. Based on the Manta flight the group took from Argus to Atlas, a flight from Atlas to Vale should assumedly only take about a day's travel at most, and since we see a shot of Weiss still in an airship with Jacques, this would coincide with Ruby only being unconscious for about a day.
- We also learn that Sun witnessed Blake bolt once everyone was okay. Based on Sun's own testimony, he followed after her shortly after, while Scarlet, Sage, and Neptune flew back to Mistral.
- Like you pointed out, we then see that Winter has started, which is when RNJR is formed and they leave for Haven. Again, we don't have an exact time frame for how long it took Ruby to coordinate with Jaune, but as we see Yang still not having changed and Tai bringing Ruby breakfast, we can assume this is maybe at best two weeks later. I don't doubt Yang would still be too depressed to leave bed, but she was in the same position as when Ruby talked to her. Add on that Blake is shown to still be in Vale in the montage, it could be as little as a day, and that we were seeing the last day of Fall before Ruby up and left.
- Next we look at Blake's timeline. Blake we know took a boat from the coast of Sanus to Menagerie, and Sun was following her the entire time. As we saw she was still in Vale back in Volume 3, and in the time between going to the boat she got a new outfit and hadn't noticed Sun at all, even though as he demonstrated by wearing a full body cloak and her noticing him, he's not exactly that stealthy. So its hard to believe he stayed hidden for too long.
- We don't have an exact point of reference for how long the boat ride took, but we do know exactly where Blake's timeline reconvenes with the others. After getting Ilia's scroll, they learn that Adam is aiming to assassinate Sienna Khan as a Coup d'etat. They all then confront the Albain brothers, who deny knowledge of this, and then Ghira issues his press conference, announcing what he learned.
- This means that at this point in time, its currently the middle of Summer, meaning for Blake's point in the timeline, it has been at least six months since she left Vale, skipping all of Winter and Spring. If we wanna divide it up, we could say Blake was trekking across Sanus for a month or two, that her boat ride took a month or two, and that she had been staying at Menagerie for about a month or two. We later learn, again from Ghira, what the current timeline is after the attack on the Belladonna house.
- This means by RWBY V5 E10 "True Colors", Blake's timeline is two weeks behind the rest of the story, as the next episode RWBY V5 E11 "The More the Merrier" begins with the start of the Attack on Haven. So, we can estimate at this point that, for Blake's Timeline, there is at least eight months between her leaving Vale and the Attack on Haven.
- Now here we can start getting more concrete. After the Battle of Haven, Qrow is all set to send his letter to Ironwood, and we hear what it says via narration.
- So we know that its now 8.5-9 months post Fall of Beacon. Side note, but this should already disprove the idea that CFVY was at Shade for "over a year", since SSSN was just leaving Mistral here and a year hadn't passed for them.
- Now, after the Argus Limited crashes, they learn about stuff from Jinn in RWBY V6E3 "The Lost Fable", and proceed to go looking for shelter in RWBY V6E4 "So That's How It Is" thanks to Maria. Now, according to Maria, the cold would be enough to kill them, so it would be suicidal for them to camp at all, so they found Brunswick Farms the same day.
- We also know they left Brunswick Farms the next day after running into the Apathy. Again, since it would be suicide to camp out in the woods, we can assume they make it to Argus the same day. Ruby makes it clear when talking to Saphron they plan on going to the military base the next day.
- The next day however in RWBY V6E8 "Dead End", they're turned away by Cordovin, JNR learns what RWBYQ learned, and Oscar runs off. While it would seem there's no distinct timeline for how long Oscar was missing, we actually get one thanks to Oscar himself in RWBY V6E9 "Lost".
- Meaning that Oscar was only gone for that day. Jaune then makes the idea to steal a Manta. Now we don't know whether they enact their plan the next day, but its likely that so there's no going back. The tail end of Volume 6 up to the end of RWBY V7 E2 "A New Approach" all proceeds to take place that same day.
- In total, Volume 6 takes place over the course of four days.
- First Cinder's:
- When Cinder finally thaws out of the ice and breaks out of the Spring Vault, she kills the villager and steals her clothes. Now we don't know if Cinder immediately went into town afterwards or stayed in that villagers home, but when she gets to town, a wanted sign
is seen showing her, Emerald, Mercury, Hazel, and Adam, with the subtitle saying "Last known location: Haven Academy, Approximately One Month Ago". This means by the time Cinder came into that town, she was about two weeks further in the timeline than the protagonists. Later, when going to Lil' Miss Malachite for the location of Ruby, one of the Spiders says this:
Spider: Lil' Miss, we already know where they are. That big guy asked about 'em last week.- That "Big Guy" refers to Hazel, meaning Hazel, Emerald, and Mercury were one week further in the timeline than the protagonists, but Cinder was still one week further than them. Lil' Miss tells her to give them a week to scrounge up the info. They do so, and in RWBY V6E5 "The Coming Storm", she confirms the timeline difference for us.
Lil' Miss: Word is they were seen boarding the Argus Limited a few weeks back. While that isn't exactly far from here, Argus is rarely a destination for folks. Chances are they'll be going straight to—Cinder: Atlas.- Cinder then runs into Neo, and the two form their Enemy Mine, with Neo stealing a Mistral Airship, disguising it as a Manta, and flying to Atlas.
- When Cinder finally thaws out of the ice and breaks out of the Spring Vault, she kills the villager and steals her clothes. Now we don't know if Cinder immediately went into town afterwards or stayed in that villagers home, but when she gets to town, a wanted sign
- Next Salem's:
- We already know thanks to the Spider that Hazel, Emerald, and Mercury were still in Mistral a week after Ruby and the others left on the Argus Limited. Now, we don't have a concrete idea for long it took them to get from Mistral to Evernight, but based on later information, it couldn't be more than a day. Hazel informs Salem of Ozpin being back and their trip to Atlas, and she has her meltdown.
- After Mercury calls Emerald out for idolizing Cinder, Tyrian comes in, deconstructs Mercury's background, and announces he and Watts are leaving for Atlas. Again, we don't know how long the gap was, but again, based on later information, this is likely either the same day or the next day.
- So Cinder and Neo are now three weeks behind the others initially, and Salem is one week behind the others initially.
- Now, initially I was under the assumption that RWBY V7 E3 "Ace Operatives" took place the immediate day after the previous episode. However, that comes to an issue with one character: Forest.
- Forest as we know rode in the same prison transport as the others, and would be killed by Tyrian at the end of this episode.
- We already know however that Watts and Tyrian had been in Mantle for some time by then, as Forest wasn't his first kill.
- Since Salem's group was initially a week behind the Argus Limited and that Ruby's group only got to Atlas four days after leaving, that means they arrived in Atlas three days before we see Salem's timeline.
- So, for Watts and Tyrian to already be causing trouble, there would need to be a time gap of at least four days before Forest is killed.
- Hell, Forest actually died the night before the mission, since it was sunset when Ironwood got the news but Forest died at night.
- Making this harder though is whether they just let Forest go after dropping RNJRWBYQO off that same night, or if they processed him and then let him go another day.
- Anyway, after they complete the mission in RWBY V7 E4 "Pomp and Circumstance", RNJRWBY are awarded Huntsmen Licenses. The next day in RWBY V7 E5 "Sparks" we get our montage. Now, we don't have a good scale for time, but we can get a general range based on the shots of RWBY shown in sequence. Each shot is presumably a separate day, and when added with the two shots of them in their bedroom as their own days, we can assume at least a week passed, possibly even two weeks.
- After that, we have ORNJ vs. FNKI, the Happy Huntress confrontation, and Jacques announcing the closing of Mantle SDC stores happening presumably on the same day. We know that the events of RWBY V7 E6 "A Night Off" happen the next day, and RWBY V7 E7 "Worst Case Scenario" the day after that. The rest of Volume 7 then proceeds to take place over the course of one more day. So after the montage there is a total of four days.
- Now during this final day, we learn that Cinder and Neo made it into Atlas, and that Neo had disguised herself among the waitstaff. This would coincide with them being two weeks behind Ruby's group, since said group would have been in Atlas for 17 days by time Cinder and Neo made their Enemy Mine.
- So, when bringing this all together, the time they spent in Atlas was close to about two-thirds of the month.
- According to a Pre-Show Livestream
, Ruby was 15 during the course of Volume's 1-3, which ignores that, if her Birthday is on Halloween, she had to have turned 16 during the one month Time Skip at the end of Volume 3.
- Similarly, Ruby is noted to be 16
only in Volume's 4-5, but 17 in RWBY Rewind
for RWBY V6E2 "Uncovered", meaning unless the Fall Semester doesn't start till the middle of October, she shouldn't be 17 yet.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Jun 15th 2020 at 5:42:13 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.@Wyld: Honestly I'm really at a loss for what exactly they're planning to do with Cinder. After everything she's done and displaying precisely zero redeeming qualities, I really can't see her going the route of Zuko or Catra, ie being The Hero's conflicted Rival on the villainous team who pulls a Heel–Face Turn as a Sixth Ranger. If they wanted to start humanizing Cinder volume 4 would've been the place to start when she's first laid low and made vulnerable. The "rival" dynamic with Ruby also feels hilariously one-sided, if anything Jaune is the one on the heroes' side for whom It's Personal with Cinder. There's a nice parallel in there given Cinder barely even remembers Jaune, but building on that would require Jaune to get actual character focus.
At the same time it's hard to see Cinder's Dragon with an Agenda status leading her anywhere other than a Big Bad Wannabe Starscream; despite having numerous opportunities to do so she continues to learn absolutely nothing from her failures. Thus far her successes have universally been intentionally or unintentionally throwing wrenches into the major players' plans, so I could potentially see her her acting as an Unwitting Instigator of Doom in the long term, eventually trying to overthrow Salem and summoning the Gods back to Remnant in the process of her attempted betrayal.
Then there's my least favorite possibility, which is that the writers are making the same mistake with Cinder that they did with Adam. Namely that she's going to get some last minute characterization beyond a one dimensional villain, then die like a punk because she's outlived her role in the story and her Usefulness to Salem. If that "role" post volume 5 was to get the relic of knowledge and Fall Maiden's powers into Salem's hands, she shouldn't have survived her fight with Raven. It would have been trivial to include a brief bit in volume 6 where we see the grimm parasite crawling out of the rubble, and only slightly more of a hassle to write things so that Tyrian is the one who grabs the relic AND still hit the key plot point where he kills Clover.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jun 1st 2020 at 6:40:47 AM
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Ironically, they outright stated they wanted to avoid timelines so as to prevent confusion.
Yeah, I'm specifically worried about what ended up happening with Adam, where we got some token hints of characterization beyond a one dimensional Bastard Boyfriend, then immediately died. Of course, if she's going to suddenly be humanized and head towards a Heel–Face Turn, they waited far too long to get started on that.
The only thing I think they're doing is setting her up to be a Humanoid Abomination. That Grimm Claw is slowly consuming her, she's behaving very animalistic, and was even spewing fire from her mouth at one point. I could see them going the Tragic Villain route if they actually explored why she's like this before she's eventually consumed by her own demons, but so far, the most likely route is she turns into a literal monster, just like Raven said.
I imagine something like that happening, though given she’s also been set up as a minion with her own agenda, I wonder whether she’ll find a way to slip Salem’s increasingly tight leash at some point. Say if Ruby ends up burning the Grimm out of Salem, does a now fully monstrous Cinder take over?
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jun 1st 2020 at 7:15:00 AM
Maybe once Salem realizes the meaning of life and death and is just about to turn to the side of good, Cinder stabs her and sucks all the magic out of her, becoming the final boss.

Yeah, but that doesn't stop him from being a traitor, just one who isn't on Salem's side, but his own side. We actually have no clear idea if The Crown is serving Salem, for all we know he's serving or possibly is The Crown, and is kidnapping kids with powerful Semblances to build his own army of Child Soldiers.
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.