TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

RWBY General Discussion

Go To

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#63326: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:00:29 PM

Wait... are people really holding Cinder losing to Ruby in Volume 3 against her? That's asinine.

Kaze ni Nare!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63327: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:11:32 PM

It's not "holding it against her", it's pointing out how ineffective she is as a threat. Not in-universe, but in a meta sense. Her being easily punked by the silver eyes each time they come out makes it hard to see her as a nemesis for Ruby, because she's making no steps to counter that while Ruby is getting better at using her eyes.

On top of that, she can't seem to win against anybody else since the time-skip. She's just all around ineffective and has been for the past 4 volumes.

I don't want to go back to pre-timeskip Cinder generally succeeded at everything unopposed JUST AS PLANNED, but she's swung to the opposite extreme now.

She has one maiden's power when we've now got one of the heroes' side, but Cinder has a Weaksauce Weakness on top of that. She just doesn't feel like a viable threat.

Edited by Saiga on Feb 8th 2020 at 10:15:15 PM

TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63328: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:19:27 PM

[up]Exactly. Since the timeskip, she has won no battles, all of her plans have been foiled (generally by her own incompetence), and the only win she has was obtaining the Relic of Knowledge, which is something Neo did.

Even before the timeskip, her victories in the Battle of Beacon are one against Ozpin that has been widely regarded as him letting himself be kiled, and a battle against a horribly outclassed teenager, where Cinder was also backed by the Wyvern Grimm. Her taking the Maiden powers can be boiled down to winning a three-on-one fight (and subsequently losing one, that results in her only taking half the powers) and taking advantage of a moment of weakness and distraction by Jaune and Ozpin. And while she does bring down Beacon, they are already retaking the city and rebuilding (as mentioned in Volume 4), and she took a huge, offscreen loss that resulted in huge humiliation. For all her arrogance, Cinder's only real, lasting effect that isn't in the process of being subverted was destroying the CCT. Yet the show wants us to take her seriously, and characters consistently react to her presence like she's some big deal, when really, she's almost entirely harmless. Ruby can now scare her off on command due to her eyes as well, which only harms her credibility further.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Feb 8th 2020 at 10:22:20 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#63329: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:48:08 PM

She lost to Raven, but only because of Vernal using her last moments to distract her.

She also beat Neo, who's considered pretty damn strong.

She currently has a weakness to Ruby. But it seems like a weakness where there's nothing Cinder can do. If she's part-Grim, needs that Grimmness to wield Maiden Powers, and the Silver Eyes counter Grim, then that sounds like Salem's problem to me.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 8th 2020 at 12:51:26 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63330: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:50:41 PM

All Neo gas done is beat Yang, by exploiting Yang's flaws. She then fled from Raven, showing she's not in the same weight class.

Meanwhile Cinder was pushed to using her maiden power to cow Neo. That's not very impressive.

TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63331: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:52:37 PM

Raven was kicking Cinder's ass throughout that whole fight as well, and it showed. When their Auras broke, Cinder was absolutely exhausted, while Raven was fine and back on her feet immediately. Hell, I'm not even sure why Raven's Aura broke, she barely took hits in that fight. Vernal distracting Cinder was just a convenient way to end it.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Feb 8th 2020 at 10:57:09 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#63332: Feb 8th 2020 at 4:56:09 PM

[up][up] Neo has beaten more people than just Yang.

So you admit that Cinder IS in Raven's weight class?

But regardless, I don't feel like Cinder needs to be a tippity top tier fighter (like Tyrian), because that's not her strict role in Salem's Lot.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 8th 2020 at 12:57:28 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63333: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:04:27 PM

That's not what I said. I'm just talking about Neo.

Whether Cinder is in that class is a separate question, and I guess that depends on what you mean. Raven doesn't completely outclass Cinder but clearly has the upperhand, so they're not equal.

TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63334: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:11:57 PM

Neo has had three fights in the show: Yang, which she won handily. Ruby, who she couldn't really touch until Torchwick arrived to provide support. And Cinder, who she forced into using Maiden powers. Well, she's had a fourth fight now against Team JNR, I suppose, but she was still forced to run from that one as well, resorting to subterfuge instead. So no, Cinder isn't on Raven's level: Neo ran from Raven at first sight, yet was not only willing to fight Cinder, but outperformed her so hard she had to resort to Maiden powers.

And sure, Cinder's role in Salem's circle may no be as a powerhouse fighter, but the show sure as shit wants us to treat her like a credible threat... which she has completely failed to be since the timeskip. She only has losses and failures since then.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Feb 8th 2020 at 11:12:52 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#63335: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:18:26 PM

Sorry, I always find myself getting heated during power level discussions.

Cinder not strictly having that many wins doesn't really bother me because of the type of character she is.

Given the gulf in both age and experience with their respective maiden powers, I'd say Cinder handled herself admirably in the fight with Raven. It's not like she got no hits in or wasn't able to fight evenly for certain stretches.

Cinder is of an age comparable to the main cast, and like them, she's learning and growing. She's not supposed to be an unstoppable villain (hence why even in Volume 3 she doesn't beat the Fall Maiden herself. She comes up with a plan and recruits people to help her.)

If Salem were suffering the same kinds of defeats, I would be up in arms.

Kaze ni Nare!
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63336: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:21:36 PM

I understand what you're saying, but still, if the show wants us to take her seriously as a villain, it needs to give her some kind of victory at some point, because otherwise, we have no reason to be concerned at her presence. Right now, Cinder commands no authority or fear, she's just kind of an annoyance that shows up to pester the heroes once in a while. She carries the same threat level as Team Rocket, except the show wants us to take her seriously.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#63337: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:29:39 PM

Cinder tends to be fighting people with more experience than in regards to maiden powers or in some cases she is fighting people people that were higher level than most of her opponents we see in the first three volumes.

Amber was a group fight and she had emerald to conceal her movements.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#63338: Feb 8th 2020 at 5:38:30 PM

[up][up] I don't think we're supposed to see her as scary as someone like Tyrian or Salem. We wouldn't have had her being a traumatized, mute wreck for nearly a whole volume if that were the case.

I think we're supposed to see her as dangerous, which she is. Dangerous with the clear potential to be a real monster after some development. I don't think that's doubtable even with her losses. She's a threat to the core cast without her powers, and she's strong enough to be a threat to people beyond the core cast WITH them. Either through strength of arms or through cunning. She couldn't beat Raven, but she certainly took her by surprise and killed Vernal (yes, Vernal was a decoy, but I doubt Raven WANTED her dead)

Cinder's threat level is adequate to her station.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 8th 2020 at 1:41:54 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63339: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:07:26 PM

Cinder's threat level is adequate to her station.

I agree with that statement completely, but for entirely different reasons [lol]

I think we're supposed to see her as dangerous, which she is.

I have no doubt that the show wants us to see her as dangerous, and hey, if you do, then all the power to you, I'm not here to argue against that. But I really just cannot see Cinder as dangerous in any way. She's a massive edgelord with an arrogance she hasn't earned, who consistently fails at almost everything she tries to achieve, mostly due to her own incompetence and need to be dramatic. Her own nemesis is someone she's completely unable to touch due to the Silver Eyes, and everything she's achieved in the show thus far was either when being backed by other, more competent people (Watts helping with Beacon from backstage, Emerald and Mercury doing the heavy lifting against Amber, Neo getting the Relic of Knowledge) or due to sheer luck (like her trick on Ironwood this Volume), and every fight she's been in since becoming more powerful due to the Fall Maiden's powers has ended in Cinder having her ass handed to her. And yet she still thinks she can stop to monologue when inches away from a helpless Winter Maiden. And then her reaction is to throw a hissy fit and act childishly angry whenever she fails. I honestly cannot take her seriously.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#63340: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:12:59 PM

[up]Quick question Lovecraft. Genuinely curious and not trying to sound rude or anything, but... why are you still here? I thought you dropped the show after this volume, and didn't want to waste anymore time watching or discussing it outside of fanfics. So why stick around here?


[Crossposted from Spoiler Thread]
It occurs to me that we never actually see the Staff of Creation outside of the Opening. Well, I guess even an Object can get an Early-Bird Cameo.
    ARON vs. Neo 
The beginning of the fight... its really unimpressive. The action is rather slow and while it does look more like a realistic fight, it just looks dreadfully slow paced. Moments where characters can dodge, people charging Neo one at a time. Yeah, I don't blame Neo for bolting when she did, I'd want out of this snorefest of a fight too.

The second half however is a vast improvement. The pacing is much better, Neo using psychological warefare on Ren thanks to looking like Nora that it sends him into tears, Jaune's genuine worry over Oscar nearly going missing again, the fatigue clear on Oscar from all the shit today has thrown at him, but of course the worst part for the heroes, that in all the chaos, Neo manages to slip away with the Lamp.

And Ren shows the stress is getting to him the most. He's now openly snapping at the others, claiming they weren't ready to be huntsmen, and while I won't argue that yeah, they could have used a lot more training before getting licensed, they unfortunately couldn't wait for that after being dragged into this Secret War. Plus, its obvious Neo's trick is really what got him on edge so much.

And Oscar runs off on his own to go and stop Ironwood. Prepare for this to have a section of its own.
    Cinder vs. Winter, Penny... and Fria 
  • I'm surprised to say this, but I think we just got a little bit of character depth from Cinder of all people. She goes into a rant about how Atlesian's hoard power for themselves and that it makes everyone else "hungrier", and that she refuses to "starve". Add on her sense of entitlement she's displayed and how her defining line was wanting to be strong, feared, and powerful... I'm beginning to think Cinder was oppressed at some point. Possibly someone who lived under Atlesian occupation of her home, and she felt powerless and afraid. Just now that she has a bit of power, its gone to her head and she thinks she deserves all of the Maiden's power. She also displays genuine rage fighting Penny and Winter. The only people she displayed genuine rage with were Ruby, the target of her hate boner, and Raven, the one who constantly belittled her as they fought. But Winter and Penny have said nothing to her. It's as if just them being Atlesian and having the Winter Maiden is enough to send her to the Rage Breaking Point. Just seeing Penny hold the dying Fria is enough to send her into hysterics. Forget entitlement, its almost like she needs the Maiden Powers, like its some psychological effect on her, she's freaking hyperventilating at this point. We seriously need a backstory to explain this behavior, cause for the first time in a long while, I am genuinely interested in just what made Cinder who she is.
  • We have another Summon to add to Winter's arsenal, a Manticore. So far all of her Grimm have been relatively common ones, a Beowulf, a Manticore, and small Nevermore. Compared to Weiss who has nothing but uncommon or rare Grimm, such as the Arma Gigas, the Queen Lancer, and the Boarbatusk.
  • And Fria, while suffering a little dementia and on deaths door, proves when it comes to Maiden Powers, Age does equal Experience. Raven already hinted at it, but even weakened and on the verge of death, Fria is able to hold Cinder at bay just with the sheer intensity of her power. Her power actually being cold enough to burn both Cinder's Grimm Arm and the fingers off of Winter's glove. And she passes the powers on... to Penny. Yep, Penny having the powers is whats gonna stop Ironwood's plan, since she has more obvious Conflicting Loyalty than say Winter. What the protagonists need to do is get Penny away from Atlas and then bolt. So long as Penny is gone, Salem can't get the staff, and that's what is most important.
  • And Cinder joins the An Arm and a Leg club again since Winter cuts off her Geist arm... for all of 10 seconds since apparently that thing has a Healing Factor. The way the stub just wriggles around for a sec is honestly kinda gross. And following in the Namekian School of Healing, it looked pretty painful to regrow.
  • And then Ruby and Weiss show up. Ruby's eyes go off and Cinder flees before they can do anything, actually spewing fire in rage. Fria has now become a part of Penny, Winter is ready to lay into Weiss since she doesn't know the whole truth, and Cinder can only fly above Atlas in a rage.
    Ironwood 
And it's official. Ironwood has crossed the MEH in my eyes... at least for now. It's not the fact he is openly telling Oscar that he is employing The Needs of the Many and acknowledging he will abandon all of Remnant just to save Atlas. It's not the fact he claims he's the only one able to see the big picture and that everyone else is naive like any Knight Templar would say. No. It's the fact he tried to execute Oscar. Oscar only tried to make him see reason, only tried to make him see that his mentality is making him just as dangerous as Salem, and what does Ironwood do? He shoots Oscar, who is visibly battered and struggling to stand, and not only breaks his aura, but sends him rocketing off the ledge to what Ironwood thinks is his death. Obviously Oscar isn't gonna die, but Oscar was the closest thing Ironwood had to a Morality Pet this Volume. And he shot him. He was perfectly willing to kill the 14 year old Oscar just for trying to talk him down. Ironwood has no ground to stand on anymore. He has officially earned my hatred. Yeah, Ruby is no longer #10 on my Top 10 Hated Characters list. Ironwood takes her spot.
    Where to go from here? 
As Oscar is falling, Ozpin finally comes back out, grips The Long Memory, and blasts a hole into the base of Atlas, leaving Oscar free falling. He then goes into a speech about Fear and how it is the one common factor of all living things, but how we still underestimate it's grip on us. Fear of growing close to others which brings the fear of loss (Qrow and Robyn), fear of failure (Cinder and JNR), and how when people depend on you, that fear becomes stronger. But what's worse, fear itself shouldn't be concerning, its what fear turns you into as it tightens its grip on you (Ozpin himself). And will you be proud of who they become (Winter)? Will you forgive them (Ruby, Weiss, and Penny)? Will you understand their actions (Pietro)? Will you even recognize them (Neo and Cinder)? Or will you become He Who Fights Monsters (Ironwood)? That only time will tell.
  • Qrow and Robyn are both arrested for the murder of Clover, with Qrow holding onto Clover's badge as a Tragic Keepsake while Robyn aims to comfort him as the two are dragged back to Atlas.
  • Yang, Blake, Jaune, Nora, Ren, Maria, and Pietro steal a Manta and escape Atlas aiming to regroup with the others.
  • Winter forces Ruby, Weiss, and Penny to flee despite her injuries, even calling in backup so that Weiss can't try to stay for her.
  • Neo presents Cinder with the Relic of Knowledge.
  • Ironwood screams in fury over Winter failing.
  • Watts is revealed to be alive and in custody, watching smugly as the storm approaches.
  • Ozcar reveals his magic once more to brace his fall. And while Oscar thinks Ozpin saved him, Ozpin believes Oscar saved them both. And Oscar just wants to know how they save Atlas.
  • And a storm approaches Atlas ominously, Salem ready to begin her assault, riding amidst a massive Grimm Whale and surrounded by flying Grimm, donning a new outfit with Grimm Armor on it.
Atlas' Darkest Hour has arrived.

And surprisingly, no stinger!

I'll give my final thoughts on the Volume later.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63341: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:54:10 PM

I am still curious on some people's thoughts on the Volume (such as yours, for example). Mostly, I'm hanging around for a bit while the discussion on the last episode is still going. There's... admittedly less discussion than I expected, so I will probably just stop answering at some point.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#63342: Feb 8th 2020 at 6:56:57 PM

So, anyone else think we should move Penny and maybe even Pietro to the RWBY Friends And Allies page? Cause I think at this point, Penny and Pietro are considered deserters and are clearly not allied with Atlas anymore.


[up]Didn't you see my thoughts on the Spoiler Thread?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#63343: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:07:05 PM

...I might have forgotten to read them. My bad.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#63344: Feb 8th 2020 at 7:29:37 PM

Well then you'll also be seeing my Final Thoughts tomorrow then.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#63345: Feb 8th 2020 at 8:55:22 PM

Well, caught up. Despite the major events, it's kind of a set-up finale, which is a consequence of the short seasons. Putting aside my standard "the volumes should be longer" complaint, I liked it. The new designs also looked better in motion than I was afraid of.

Somehow I'm surprised by both Jacques and Ironwood ending up as villains. I figured either Ironwood would recover before going full villain or Jacques would turn into an Enemy Mine situation due to Pragmatic Villainy. There's still time for that, I suppose, but he's lost most of his power so he wouldn't be particularly helpful.

I did like that arc overall, though. Ironwood seems to be heroic, and then when he gets unstable we're slapped in the face with a reminder of all the many problems of letting a fascist military state run rampant. There's a reason Ozma intentionally designed the Academies to not be military.

Fans originally theorized that Penny had been designed as a vessel for the Fall Maiden's power. While I don't think the timeline matches up quite right, her getting the Winter Maiden's power does bring that to mind.

Interesting that Salem makes her major move against a Kingdom that recently learned of her existence, and yet is still cut off from the rest of the world. Is this one of the reasons Ozma kept her a secret? Because it causes her to go full genocide? Of course, her existence was never the most important secret, it's that she literally can't be killed.

The Clover/Qrow fight was contrived. It wasn't too bad, but it could have used a bit more lampshading, with Qrow yelling about how they can discuss things after securing the psychopath. Interesting that Robyn was arrested too in the end. My guess is when she woke up she attacked the police.

Anyway, good season, I'm sure everyone here hated it.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#63346: Feb 8th 2020 at 9:44:48 PM

Well, I didn't hate it.

It had its flaws, sure, but I still enjoyed watching it, just like I enjoyed watching RWBY in general.

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#63347: Feb 9th 2020 at 12:10:39 AM

Examples Searching For A Trope: The camera lingering on Ironwood after he shoots Oscar, and he stares, unmoving. It seems this was meant to trip us up, with Ironwood turning away, but I've literally seen no one else comment, I expect because it seemed obvious.

Edited by TwinBird on Feb 9th 2020 at 3:11:57 PM

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#63348: Feb 9th 2020 at 1:44:36 AM

Good news for you Discar, Volume 8 is confirmed to be longer than other volumes, with the downside that 9 is shorter as a trade-off. Hopefully both Volumes going into production at the same time will make things tighter.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#63349: Feb 9th 2020 at 6:46:01 AM

So, anyone else think we should move Penny and maybe even Pietro to the RWBY: Friends and Allies page? Cause I think at this point, Penny and Pietro are considered deserters and are clearly not allied with Atlas anymore.

I don't think it's correct to claim that Pietro and Penny aren't allied with Atlas any more. They aren't allied with Ironwood any more, which is a very different thing. The whole volume has been a debate about the best way to protect the Kingdom of Atlas. Given the fact that the volume ends with Oscar asking Ozpin how they can save Atlas while a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and dragon wings for flippers sets up camp on Atlas's doorstep, the Volume 8 issue is going to be about protecting Atlas despite Ironwood instead of with his help.

The plot line is therefore currently location-dependent (Solitas and the Kingdom of Atlas) until the end of Volume 9. Meanwhile, the Friends and Allies page is for the characters that are travelling around the world with the plot and the main characters. They aren't location-specific because they're travelling with the plot instead of being involved only when the plot visits them. The Team RWBY and JNPR pages are too bulky to be combined into a single page and include on top of that the extra characters they're travelling with, so we've got the clunky position of having three pages to cover the 'main characters'.

At the moment, Pietro and Penny are location-specific characters, they're only part of the plot because the plot line is currently focussed on their location (the Kingdom of Atlas). They will only stop being location-dependent at the end of Volume 9, and only if it becomes clear they will be leaving Solitas behind when the plot does to travel with the plot to the next location, like the rest of the main characters are doing.

It's therefore a question to ask at the end of Volume 9 rather than now.

Alternatively, we can restructure the layout of the character pages yet again — which would be the third hiatus in a row that we've done that and therefore I'm not a fan of that idea. It could be that we just need to rename the Friends and Allies page to something more appropriate.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Feb 9th 2020 at 3:04:27 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#63350: Feb 9th 2020 at 9:45:57 AM

Well for a time, Sun was on the page until he got removed from it in Volume 6 when he was Put on a Bus. Seems impractical to keep adding and removing characters if they suddenly leave the plot for a period of time. Why not rename the page "Major Allies" and make two sections: "Travelling With" and "Elsewhere"?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.

Total posts: 81,757
Top