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Nov 5th 2019 at 1:35:38 PM

I did pay attention. I'm just worried about a potential reveal that lots of that stuff might be a lie. It wouldn't be the first story I've seen where a character who seems to be worried and flying by the seat of his pants turns out to be more in control than we think.

I doubt it. If he had something more concrete, he would have brought it up when everyone was turning on him. Even if he refused to tell them what it was, he would have been like "I promise I have a plan, I'm just playing it super close to the chest. I know that's insulting, but we are currently dealing with the fallout of one of my oldest friends turning on me, so you'll forgive me for being paranoid."

That being said, we know he does have other plans in play. He's confident that the Relic of Choice remains out of Salem's hands, we still don't know exactly why he created the Maidens, and he might have some connection to Summer's disappearance and the Silver-Eyed Warriors as a whole. He just doesn't expect any of those plans to work as anything but stalling actions.

Nov 5th 2019 at 2:01:30 PM

Who else is kinda wondering if Cinder didn't kill Ozpin?

I believed from the very beginning (so the finale episode) that Ozpin let Cinder kill him.

There were certain things about the fight that didn't make sense unless Ozpin either faked his death or allowed himself to be killed.

When V4 started airing, Salem's attitude reinforced my belief. She didn't seem to believe Cinder was capable of killing Ozpin. When Cinder insisted that she had killed him, Salem's reaction was to wonder what Ozpin was planning.

That suggests to me that Salem knows Ozpin uses his reincarnation cycle as a strategy — that he sometimes uses death as a tactic, and that this is what she thinks has happened here. In other words, Ozpin had a plan in mind that required his death to enact.

As we've gone on and certain characters have said things, or reacted in ways, that suggest Ozpin's reincarnation has some unusual factors to it this time, I've only become more suspicious about this, not less.

My theory was that it's common in storytelling that involves magic for the most powerful magic of all to involve self-sacrifice — the voluntary sacrifce of your life for another's benefit.

I became more convinced of this after Ozpin warned Oscar that their road is a path of sacrifice. it makes sense for the path's ultimate end to be the sacrifice of life — but that is the path they choose to take.

That was my theory prior to us learning about the four Relics. Since we learned about the Relics, my theory is that the reason for sacrifice (specifically the 'choice' to sacrifice) is about protecting the Relic of Choice, given its superficially vulnerable circumstances.

When Ruby asked about the Relic of Choice, Ozpin seemed very confident that the extra protections he had in place made the Relic of Choice less vulnerable than the Relic of Knowledge despite the fact Beacon had fallen and was now under Salem's control.

While I expect him to have had extra protections in place for some time (which is why I think the vault we've seen is something of a decoy and that the statue outside in the courtyard is the key to the location of the chamber), I do think he permitted Cinder to kill him because making a choice to sacrifice his life would empower the Relic of Choice and its protections in some way.

And, since we know from the pilot episode, that this sort of thing is likely to be part of the things Salem has 'long forgetten', Salem — like so many villains in so many stories — is likely to overlook this kind of self-sacrificial protection magic.

And, no, I don't believe the fact that Ozma just reincarnates renders the sacrifice of that life meaningless or powerless because Ozma has to start over when he reincarnates — a life is genuinely lost, even if Ozma does continue in another form. And, if the host and Ozma were genuinely sharing a life, then the key point here is that it's the host's sacrifice to make — something Ozpin effectively warned Oscar about before Oscar ran away from home.

Anyway, tl;dr: yes, I think Cinder killed Ozpin but, no, I don't think she was capable of it; I think Ozpin permitted her to kill him — she has no idea and thinks she genuinely bested him while Salem knows that Ozpin let Cinder kill him but hasn't yet figured out why he made that choice.

People really taking Ozpin to task was exactly what I wanted after finding the whole thing with Oscar really disturbing. My point is that a reveal that he actually planned a bunch of stuff out would hurt what I liked about Season 6.

The problem with that position is that the show has made it absolutely clear that Ozpin does plan things out. He does have plans and does carry out those plans. What he doesn't have is a plan for dealing with Salem once and for all.

Volume 4 effectively told us what Ozpin is doing when Taiyang lectured Yang on changing how she thinks about handling obstacles: when faced with obstacles you can't blast through, you have find a way around them instead. Taiyang's point was that Raven never learned that lesson and that he hoped Yang was now in a place where she finally could.

That's essentially the position the show has put Ozpin is: the obstacle that can't be blasted through is Salem, so Ozpin has to work around her instead. Volume 6 shows us that everyone thinks Ozpin's plans are about blasting through Salem and that when they learn he's not even trying to do that, they're too shell-shocked to realise what he's really doing.

Raven said that Taiyang was a fool for still supporting Ozpin, but V4 tells us why: Taiyang understands how to handle an insurmountable obstacle — and he's the only living STRQ member who does.

If he had something more concrete, he would have brought it up when everyone was turning on him.

That's not usually how this kind of plot works, and it would also be out-of-character for Ozpin to do so.

Characters with a Guilt Complex don't defend themselves when people think the worst about them. They'll even think they deserve it. We've seen in previous volumes that Ozpin doesn't defend himself when people think the worst about him, and we saw in Volume 6 that he simply accepted what Qrow said about him.

Also, in these kinds of stories, the Big Good or the hero's mentor if there isn't a Big Good has a moment when the 'truth' about their past comes out and their relationship with the hero falls apart. The heroes see only the worst in the Big Good and either abandon the cause or struggle on with the mission having lost their compass. The Big Good or the mentor doesn't defend themselves and so the heroes continue to think the worst until something happens where they learn the 'full truth' about the past and about who the Big Good or mentor now is. In the reconciliation that follows, the heroes are now wiser for having gone through the experience and, often, the Big Good or mentor has also gained wisdom in the form of accepting or trusting in the hero's ability so that the torch for leading the cause can pass on (the Big Good or mentor effectively goes from leader to guide as the heroes begin to outgrow their dependency).

V6 was just the point where learning the 'truth' makes the heroes see only the worst about the Big Good and therefore drives a wedge between them.

Eventually, they'll work together again and the heroes will have a better (more nuanced) view of Ozpin and even the situation. However, Ozpin's role will be that of guide, not leader — a role that technically began in the V6 finale when he guided Oscar instead of controlling him.

Even if he refused to tell them what it was, he would have been like "I promise I have a plan, I'm just playing it super close to the chest. I know that's insulting, but we are currently dealing with the fallout of one of my oldest friends turning on me, so you'll forgive me for being paranoid."

You have to bear in mind that he actually did use that argument — not in the same words, but that discussion did happen, and it ended badly.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 5th 2019 at 10:48:38 AM

It feels so good to have no signature at last.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Nov 5th 2019 at 2:58:53 PM

[up] I guess what I'm hoping is that Ozpin's big plan fails. At least in some ways. If he comes back with a grand scheme to circumvent Salem and it actually works, I'd wonder why the story wasn't about him the entire time. He's easily interesting enough to be the main character of a story.

Edited by GNinja on Nov 5th 2019 at 11:01:33 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Nov 5th 2019 at 3:18:42 PM

we still don't know exactly why he created the Maidens

Beside the popular theory that the original Maidens reminded him of his four children, I believe that he wanted four people he could trust to ensure the safety of the Relics while he was dead or they would have been sitting duck waiting to be taken by Salem or someone else. However, problems started to arise when these powers go to women lacking the supposed moral compass of the original Maidens or even the desire to be bestowed with such duty.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Nov 5th 2019 at 3:30:11 PM

[up][up] The reveal of Oz's big secret being that he's more or less a Cosmic Plaything who is just as lost as everyone else is honestly one of the show's best plot points so far. I like Oz specifically because he's a failure. At least in terms of his mission to unite humanity and return the Gods to Remnant. He's done a lot of good outside of that, though I suspect that he considers himself a failure in spite of that.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 5th 2019 at 6:30:33 AM

Nov 5th 2019 at 3:31:00 PM

[up][up][up] He doesn't have one grand plan. However, we do know that Ozma has had big schemes before. The Great War ended with one. My interpretation of the eighty-year peace is that's how long it took for Salem to come back from that one. However, even though there was clearly a very big plan at the end of the war, there's also the possibility that it was one he came up with to suit the circumstances he was in at the time — but that's a thing when you've got two immortals constantly manoeuvring against each other, some plans might be more long-term, but some plans may be flying by the seat of their pants.

The thing with a chess game that's basically playing out a never-ending stalemate scenario is that there isn't one 'PLAN'. Instead, there are lots of constantly moving plans and counter-plans — a lot of running just to stand still.

[up][up]My theory is that, yes, the Old Wizard gave the magic to the sisters because they reminded him of his daughters but also because he loathed his magic and what he was capable of doing with it after his daughters were killed in that magical duel.

However, I'm not sure he expected his magic to reincarnate. My theory is that he thought his magic would simply die with the sisters when they died. Instead, the magic is moving from Maiden to successor in exactly the same pattern as his reincarnation cycle (my theory is that it remains linked to his soul in some tenuous manner), and he only realised that when it was too late (after a Maiden died). So, instead of having his magic do some good in the world before disappearing forever, he's now in a constant, never-ending battle just to keep track of his magic and minimise the chances of it falling into the wrong hands.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 5th 2019 at 11:43:41 AM

It feels so good to have no signature at last.
Nov 5th 2019 at 3:41:19 PM

Characters with a Guilt Complex don't defend themselves when people think the worst about them. They'll even think they deserve it. We've seen in previous volumes that Ozpin doesn't defend himself when people think the worst about him, and we saw in Volume 6 that he simply accepted what Qrow said about him.

Fair point, but the reason all this came up was because GNinja doesn't like the stock twist where it turns out the Big Good had everything under control the entire time, springing a trap on the Big Bad at the last second. Part of the reason for Ozma's Guilt Complex is because he does not have everything under control, but does his best to pretend he does in order to keep hope up. So my point remains that the series isn't going to end with Ozma's masterstroke Just as Planned moment.

He can easily have a few smaller ones, though. I like your self-sacrifice idea, and Salem not truly understanding it. So that could be a good Just as Planned moment, without leading into a curb-stomp of Salem like what happened in Harry Potter.

Beside the popular theory that the original Maidens reminded him of his four children, I believe that he wanted four people he could trust to ensure the safety of the Relics while he was dead or they would have been sitting duck waiting to be taken by Salem or someone else. However, problems started to arise when these powers go to women lacking the supposed moral compass of the original Maidens or even the desire to be bestowed with such duty.

Those are just fan theories. Fan theories I like, mind, but they're definitely not canon yet. The only in-universe explanation we got was heavy with Unreliable Narrator due to the use of the fairy tale method to deliver the exposition; we didn't even know about Ozma's reincarnation yet.

Nov 5th 2019 at 3:43:58 PM

Fair point, but the reason all this came up was because G Ninja doesn't like the stock twist where it turns out the Big Good had everything under control the entire time, springing a trap on the Big Bad at the last second.

Yes, but I'm not taking that kind of position anyway. While I do believe that Ozpin has plans and that he did 'plan' his death against Cinder, I believe it was for the purpose of protecting the Relic of Choice while Beacon's in such a vulnerable state. So, it's not a grand plan to defeat Salem and it's not going to spring a trap on the Big Bad at the last second.

The show basically ruled out Ozpin having that kind of a grand plan so I would find it odd if that did suddenly happen. I think the reveal is that he does have plans and even has good plans — but they're not on the kind of scale the heroes assumed they were and they're not designed to do the kinds of things the heroes thought they were. So, the scenario that GNinja is concerned about should, hopefully, not be the case in this story. But Ozpin being as plan-less as everyone's assumed from V6? I think the show's indicated that's not the case.

He's less than his followers originally thought he was, but he's more than his followers now think him to be. They've gone from one extreme to the other and have yet to realise that he, like most people in life, is huddled somewhere in the middle.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 5th 2019 at 11:53:26 AM

It feels so good to have no signature at last.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Nov 5th 2019 at 3:55:59 PM

[up] Then the question becomes how effective these smaller scale plans of his will be, and how much weight will be put on their reveal by the narrative.

Kaze ni Nare!
VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
Nov 5th 2019 at 5:23:05 PM

Man, relax. It's not fun seeing someone worked up by their own preconceptions.

Edited by VeryMelon on Nov 5th 2019 at 5:27:31 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Nov 5th 2019 at 5:36:31 PM

[up] The Unspoken Plan Guarantee has messed with my enjoyment of so many shows, books, films, cartoons, video games and the like. It's by far my least favourite trope of all time.

So when I have a niggling feeling that one is going to happen, it sets me on edge.

Edited by GNinja on Nov 5th 2019 at 1:41:34 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
unknowing from somewhere..
Nov 5th 2019 at 9:51:02 PM

I think the issue here is that while Ozpin have plans, he dosent have and objective or endgame so far, he is more like this.

1: Hide the relic and the maiden away

2: secure the place and make sure salem dosent find out

3:???

4: see step 1 and 2.

That it, he can stop Salem but that it and is a problem now because she got step a head of Ozpin with deal a blow to everyone trust and the falling of Atlas, Ozpin hit back by defending Heaven(sure it was more a problem of Adam and Cinder burder boner getting the best of both but still) now the balance of power is on the edge right now.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Nov 6th 2019 at 3:55:42 AM

Man, relax. It's not fun seeing someone worked up by their own preconceptions.

That's been this thread since Volume 5.

Always a student.
VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
Nov 6th 2019 at 9:43:58 AM

Ha, hardly. That's just normal critical discussion.

Nov 8th 2019 at 12:24:59 AM

Would you guys consider RWBY a superhero show?

Your coming together...will be your undoing
unknowing from somewhere..
Nov 8th 2019 at 12:38:04 AM

NOPE, there is not focus in identity(secrets or public) neither in villian as whole and is more about taking the bad guy than saving the world.

Is a shonen, and american shonen but one nonetheless

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Nov 8th 2019 at 7:55:48 AM

[up] That explains why this show is so divisive in the west.

Nov 8th 2019 at 8:49:32 AM

I don't think RWBY is all that divisive among 'western' fans.

Always a student.
RebelFalcon Sleeping Asshole from on your toilet Relationship Status: Abstaining
Sleeping Asshole
Nov 8th 2019 at 9:09:55 AM

Trust me, it is. There's a reason someone put the Love It or Hate It trope on the YMMV page before it was made into an In-Universe only trope and removed.

This series has one of the biggest hatedoms you can find, whether it be from people Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch or from people who didn't like it and act like it killed their parents. Tumblr and Reddit are good examples.

Granted, that's to be expected with Western Fanbases in general nowadays, especially when you have fandoms like those of Steven Universe, My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, Undertale, Star vs. the Forces of Evil, and Rick and Morty. Compared to them, RWBY's FNDM is average.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Nov 8th 2019 at 12:12:42 PM

Protect Penny!
Nov 8th 2019 at 10:24:36 AM

This series has one of the biggest hatedoms you can find, whether it be from people Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch or from people who didn't like it and act like it killed their parents. Tumblr and Reddit are good examples.

I get that, I really do. But I don't know if we should really say the bulk of the Western fanbase is divided about RWBY based solely off of Tumblr and Reddit.

And our YMMV pages are usually "feel free to b-tch about this thing because you can't be wrong when you're speaking subjectively" pages anyway.

There was a clean-up of the YMMV pages awhile back for a similar reason I think.

Edited by Soble on Nov 8th 2019 at 10:29:34 AM

Always a student.
RebelFalcon Sleeping Asshole from on your toilet Relationship Status: Abstaining
Sleeping Asshole
Nov 8th 2019 at 10:40:37 AM

[up]Then I'll raise you Youtube. The comments sections alone shows the divide.

Protect Penny!
slimcoder Insane Religious Murderbot
Insane Religious Murderbot
Nov 8th 2019 at 10:45:40 AM

At the very least it having an animesque look is not among the primary reasons why itís divisive.

At most people think the CG is either hit or miss.

Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying levels of guilt. Oh and Primus hates you.
Nov 8th 2019 at 2:26:07 PM

Twitter is even worse this regard.

Everyone thinks they can instantly become better writers than the crew and critique every single element of the show. Some are better than others but its a really bad case of entitlement. Suicide hoaxes, people scapegoating shippers, arguments about who is and isn't part of the hatedom

People just want anyone at Rooster Teeth dead.

Discussions about Adam are only 25% productive. And more I could talk about but too busy at the moment.

TheAirman from Congratulations! Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nov 8th 2019 at 3:32:09 PM

[up][up][up]Youtube comments are inherently volatile for any work thats even mildly popular; I would be reluctant to cite that as a data source.

The thing you have to remember, especially where the internet (and even more so where anonymity on the internet is involved) is that Accentuate the Negative is a thing.

People who enjoy a work generally lack the incentive to discuss their thoughts and opinions about it as often or as vocally as critics or haters do; and only a fraction of the people who enjoy the work will make the effort to respond to said critics and/or haters.

Edited by TheAirman on Nov 8th 2019 at 5:34:42 AM

PSN ID: FateSeraph Congratulations!
Nov 8th 2019 at 3:38:21 PM

I don't consider it a Superhero show. A Talk Show fits it more than superheroes.


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