RWBY General Discussion

Since you separated "dealing with politics in an unsubtle matter" from "loudly express their opinions about characters and shipping/make a big deal out of representation/actor controversies."

Are we talking in-universe or out?

Edited by Soble on Aug 10th 2019 at 4:45:27 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Misconceptions, huh? For the sake of our sanity I will not start Adam debate again, even though I have a few things to say, and focus on the birds thing instead.

There are two problems people have with how Yang reacts to that revelation. The first one is that she finds turning into birds weirder than all the other weird stuff she had seen and that she is angry at Ozpin for giving Qrow and Raven those powers. Since those are tow separate issues, I will treat them as such.

The way Yang, Weiss and Nora react to bird transformations is simply absurd. This whole magic stuff is absurd. I heard people defend this multiple times and it never gets any better than repeating formulas such as "semblances and dust are just natural parts of RWBY's world" without explaining what makes them more natural than "magic". We know that semblances are able to:

• Violate the conservation of matter (Weiss, Flynt)
• Violate the conservation of energy (Pretty much everyone)
• Violate the laws of thermodynamics (Bertilak)
• Violate the laws of motion (Adam)
• Modify the user's physical characteristics (Yang)
• Temporarily transform the user into a different kind of entity (Ruby, or whoever you believe the "burst into rose petals" comment refers to instead of her)
• Convey power between individuals (Jaune, Marcus Black)

Nothing about the bird transformation does anything weirder than what semblances were already shown to do. Even if there is no semblance in Remnant that allows for bird transformation, the expected reaction would be "Huh, that's an unusual semblance right here" and not "That's impossible!".

Since I mentioned Harry Potter already, let me just say it deals with this sort of thing much better. There is a scene after Godric's Hollow when Harry and Hermione discuss the implications of Nagini being able to disguise itself as a woman. They conlcude that Voldemort must have some powerful, unknown magic, and they leave it at that. They don't freak out over there being some Outside Context Magic out there, because the thing they saw wasn't any more absurd than the magic they use themselves. It's just something they haven't seen yet. RWBY lacks this sort of awarness with its magic system and it shows.

As for Yang's anger, that can be explained better than "Yang has completely mesded up priorities", but not much better. The most charitable interpretation of the events I heard goes something like this:

"Yang hears from raven that Ozpin cursed her to be a bird whenever she chooses. She assumes Ozpin did that against her will and considers it to be a gross violation of bodily autonomy. Next time she meets Ozpin she doesn't seek clarification and goes right to the accusations instead. When Qrow explains that he and Raven recieved their powers voluntarily, Yang ceases to have any problem."

That scenario doesn't contradict anything from the show, but it is based on several assumptions that only serve to put Yang in unfavorable light. For one, it puts both her intelligence and social skills in question for not seeking clarification from either Raven or Ozpin before yelling at the latter. Secondly, if the misconception was the main thing keeping her angry, the natural reaction for a well-mannered person would be to say somethign to the effect of "Oh, so my mother was bullshitting me. Sorry for assuming the worst of you, Oz." Thirdly, while giving someone a power without their permission can be seen as an immoral act, Yang's reaction seems far more intense than what most people would show in that situation. So either Yang has a bad case of Skewed Priorities, or a case of unusual priorities and a tendency to jump to conclusions.

Either way, that scene is just awful.

Anyways, if you are looking for people getting defensive over minor criticisms, you can find those as well. Ther won't be as many of those, obviously, but they certainly are some of those. Pointing out a weird decision made by the characters will attract a lot of weird explanation for why it was actually a brilliant move and you just don't get it. The What An Idiot situation from a year ago is a pretty good example of this.

Can you give me some specific examples of either type of behavior? Because honestly, the "toxic RWBY critic" archetype seems to be more of a strawman than anything else.

That particular part was about In-Universe politics. I mean, they create a fantasy world which has modern-day racism, conflicts over the large quantities of valuable resources in the middle of the desert and a nation which main problems are exploitative corporations and overzelaous military? Even if not all of this was done all purpose, some people will talk about this sort of stuff, and not in a cultural manner.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 10th 2019 at 3:19:54 PM

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

The "it's magic" distinction makes all the difference in the world, even if only for the characters (since to us the entire thing is magic). If you gave a medieval man a modern gun, he would probably freak out about it despite it being an evolution of the crossbow that, simplified, works on the exact same terms of "pull the trigger" (and despite crude gunpowder weapons already existing, such as bombards and ship cannons). Technicalities, materials, projectiles used are all different - but the base concept is the exact same. It's the Watsonian-Doylist disconnect that makes this pill so tough for us to swallow.

As for Yang, the narrative has been consistently painting her as quick to jump to conclusions and awfully vindictive ever since the timeskip.

Edited by FergardStratoavis on Aug 10th 2019 at 4:22:59 PM

How do lizards fly?

I know there was one RWBY critic who wanted to hack RT severs for stuff on that letter or the hero hei clickbait garbage videos were he will just lie about stuff.

That's the reason I brought up the Harry Potter example. Dust and semblances are magic regardless of perspective. They do not fall under scientific explanations, so they classify as supernatural forces. It's why magic in Harry Potter is called magic; The characters are used to it and possibly grew up with it, but they still correctly identify it as magic — something that defies reality. So when the characters encounter another supernatural phenomenon that they haven't seen yet, they do not label it as some sort of super-magic, they just assume it's another for of magic. RWBY characters, on the other hand, break laws of physics casually but freak out when someone breaks laws of physics in a slightly different manner.

For one, Raven's transformation compared to the weirder semblances isn't like a gun is to a crossbow. It's more like a knife to a crossbow, since it does something arguably less impressive than, let's say, turning into inanimate objects and travelling in this form. If you gave a medieval man a modern knife, he would be surprised due to how constructed it is and how weird the handle is, but probably wouldn't proclaim it to be magical. More importantly, Weiss and Yang are not medieval peasants who already believe in all sorts of weird stuff. They were raised in a society that apparentely discourages supernatural explanations for weird things and has long developed science. They shouldn't freak out the moment something that they didn't thought was strictly possible happens. As a mathematician, I don't believe Fermat's Theorem can be proven in any way outside of supercomputer calculations, but if someone came up with such a proof, I wouldn't yell "What magic is this?!", I would just shrug and assume he came up with something no one else had. Yang and Weiss are trained huntresses who specialize in stuff like dust or semblances. Just because they have never turned into a bird or saw anyone do it shouldn't made them surprised to the point where "magic" and "trick" are their only explanations.

Which makes her unlikeable for some people. Having one of your main characters act irrational/obnoxious and not have them called out on this is not generally a good thing and is a perfectly valid reason for complaints.

Citation please? On both counts.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 10th 2019 at 5:26:12 PM

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

No, it's not. He just wanted to use a public database.

https://twitter.com/MuffinManDan1/status/1114255217560817665

Also...

"How are the progressives a hatedom? "

When they let their taste get confused of how progresive things are, creating a mess that is self serving at best.

"You can point out holes in Harry Potter's story and the majority of the fans will either laugh or just ignore you."

Go to see a fic that chose hermoine instead of Harry and you will see, I mean HP fandom is notorious and downright creepy for is die for my ship tendecy, is also the troper name of draco in latter pants for a reason.

"There's an SJF group that hates RWBY? "

Is not a big thing but people want the girls to be ship with each other since the start of the show or even back when Ruby was just "Red", many are seeing Blake and Yang as queerbating, manly because eve if bumblebee is canon, people want to be pandered NOW.

"They don't freak out over there being some Outside Context Magic out there, because the thing they saw wasn't any more absurd than the magic they use themselves."

Kinda but not kinda, even there are stuff outside of what magic can do, a good example is parseltounge, is not something you are suposed to do and bring is own set of implications(which it bring harry a awfull time in second book), the bird is the same but as everything in this show, explained horribly.

Adam is the same: they want to twist the audience into thinking is misguided but not, he is a dick which is a ok thing to do but Adam lack of screentime make thing more shocking than a proper twist, it was not well build up.

" So either Yang has a bad case of Skewed Priorities, or a case of unusual priorities and a tendency to jump to conclusions."

Part of it is that, specially with is mother(Yang is still very touchy about it and as wyld and myself have speculate, she is maybe blaming Ozpin for her), but another is lack of context in that moment, is not until two volume later that we found out Raven was sign in her fight with Salem a fight she think they cant win and now she have a target in her back, for someone so into survival of the fitness, is a mark of permanent paranoia.

" the "toxic RWBY critic" archetype seems to be more of a strawman than anything else."

Is more the "this show suck, you suck for liking it, now let spend wastefull time telling you why this show that sucks.....sucks" which is a thing, fatmancalling for example have very good example of critism of the show and was once of the few who actually said somce scene were Monty fault(like the train fight in volume 2 who happen only because Monty wanted boss fights) which is something most of the fanbase dont....but by go he nickpick the shit of the show at it and is video are near hour long because of it.

"So when the characters encounter another supernatural phenomenon that they haven't seen yet, they do not label it as some sort of super-magic, they just assume it's another for of magic. "

You miss the fact that, in Harry potter case all magic was magic, there wasnt any other source of power outside of it so Hermione and Harry are right to label it magic they havent see it, in this case magic and semblance are diferent stuff in part because they work diferent, Strovatis is right in that you are using a out of universe definition of magic that broadly means "powers that defy law of nature", by that mutants in marvel are magicians too.

"is a perfectly valid reason for complaints."

Only to a point and is root more on a "I want my chararter to be good all the time" a good example was Weiss, who was racist for...one episode and them that it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Oh boy we're back to describing the inclusion of queer relationships as pandering huh?

Maybe reread unknowing's post.

Edited by Moth13 on Aug 10th 2019 at 12:33:39 PM

Unknowing doesn't really say that queer relationships are pandering, just that they cause controversy. Because they do.

I mean, an hour is twelve Sargons long. That's a pretty long time.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 10th 2019 at 6:37:34 PM

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

"but by go he nickpick the shit of the show at it and is video are near hour long because of it."

Sounds like you just don't like long videos.

Is some thing to nickpick something, and there is spending near a hour doing it, at some point it kinda cross the line to just complaing for the sake of it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

I don't count using Draco in Leather Pants or Die for Our Ship as a sign of a bad fanbase. A poorly-talented fanbase, maybe, but not bad in a moral sense. If someone wants to make a fanfic in which Draco becomes a saint while Ginny replaces Voldemort as the most evil person in the world, more power to them. I might enjoy it, I might not, but least there will be one more work of art on the internet. Getting defensive over something you like, on the other hand, doesn't produce anything and may lead you to harming someone else's feelings or, in extreme cases, actually threatening them with tangible harm or even making good on those threats.

Nobody calls parseltongue something different than magic. It's just a specific kind of magic with a specific implication.

There are many power sources in HP universe. They are all called magic, because it makes sense. When Harry casts a spell, he uses magic. When Fawkes heals somebody, he uses magic. Their abilities are supernatural, so they are called magic. They are different, but they're still magic.

In RWBY you don't have that sort of clarity. When Weiss breaks laws of physics, it's a semblance. When Raven breaks laws of physics, it's magic, unless she breaks it in a different way, then it's a semblance. And it's not like there is some truly important difference between "magic" and "non-magic" in the show. Like, the first magic-user portrayed on screen wasn't actually meant to be a magic-user until the writers decided otherwise. Ultimately, both magic and semblances are individual abilities that defy reality and can be transfered under some circumstances. The mechanics are slightly different, but don't justify the Arbitrary Skepticism we see from the characters.

Preference is a preference. If they want Yang to be a saint all the time, that's a valid preference to have. Of course, such a preference is so rare that few people will exhibit it, which is why most critics don't hate the characters for having flaws — they just want the flaws to be actually adressed.

If people are willing to watch you complain for an hour, I say you are doing a good thing by complaining for an hour. At least somebody has entertainment this way, and if you are making good points, that counts as a bonus.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 10th 2019 at 6:55:56 PM

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

"as a sign of a bad fanbase. "

It can in a way, is how much star wars have a issue with rooting for the empire that have let some dude bro trying to get angry by rey and fin as "taking star wars for them" and kylo ren clearly is a embodiment of this entitled part of the fandom, in harry potter is pretty infamous for "I will excuse anyone as long is hot", which is bad perse but it can be quite weird.

" They are different, but they're still magic."

Are they diferent? I used parseltoung because is not magic in the same of using a wand, is something only a select people have so is by all intentions...."diferent" and not surprise is treat as such, but them again HP does have worldbulding as vague as RWBY.

"And it's not like there is some truly important difference between "magic" and "non-magic" in the show. "

I disagree considering that by magic Ozpin can and have indeed cheating death for example, in yang case, yang KNOW her mother semblance so she is right to be freak uo, even if anticlimatic for being afeccted by her mother being a bird.

" they just want the flaws to be actually adressed."

Sure but how a flaw is adress is another thing, Weiss racism wasnt much adress as a chararter make a fuss and them was gone, Yang is not adress because so far nobody have being affected by it yet.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

9there a guy Muffin Man Dan that suggest the hack here a like to a RWBY Reddit [1] because he deated the video just read the comment for what the video was about and here a link to his "apology" video [2]

Were do you want to stat on hero hei a could point out that he using cute anime girls on his thumbnail that have nothing to do with the video or his over the top video titles or his deference of Vic for money (the guy sells ISWV t shirts and coffee mugs) Vic a guy that a admitted to pulling a woman hair grooming twins and other creepy stuff more can be found here. [3]

I feel like we've gotten a little derailed here, since most of this is now less about the show and more about the potential fandumb.

Strictly talking about the show, I think the base thing differentiating "Semblance" and "Magic" is what they affect.

• Semblances, while fantastical powers, don't actually change the user, but rather gives them an effect. The only real exception is Ruby's turning her into Rose Petals, but even that is tricky since it was only once called that and every other time is called Super-Speed. All other semblances either let them augment their physical abilities, or produce an energy of sorts for enhancement.
• Magic however can do that and go beyond. The ability to transform into a bird is a shapeshifter ability, something no Semblance has demonstrated, and is unreliant on Aura like a Semblance. Simple Elemental Magic puts users on par with that of a Demigod in RWBY, and their powers are nigh infinite. Even Ozpin, an individual with limited Magic as a result of giving his powers to the first Maidens, can still engage in a form of Time Dilation on his own whereas Weiss required Dust to do so, and can craft fire immune force fields and levitate on his own.

Magic is to Semblance what Mutates are to Mutants. Mutants are born with their mutations and their mutations are considered a part of their body. Mutates are given their powers by an external influence and their mutations are considered a power or ability rather than apart of them. Semblances are a part of a person in RWBY. Magic isn't, at least not with the Nu!Humans after GOD killed the first humans. As for "Dust" and "Magic":

• Dust is a limited resource used for a variety of things. Each type of Dust has a clearly defined effect, and while it can be used in creative manners, is still straightforward on its own. A volatile crystal that grants elemental effects. It however is limited in what it can do, and is a finite resource, meaning if it is used, the user has to use it sparingly, or have a crap ton of money to afford it.
• Magic is multipurpose and has no defined effect. There are numerous applications of Magic and aside from Ozpin, which is more a result of him giving up his own abilities, Magic is virtually limitless. Magic in itself is rather abstract in what it can do, only being given a definitive effect if the user deems to give it such, such as Ozma giving the Maidens dominion over the elements, or making Qrow and Raven into shapeshifters.

---

As for Yang's accusing of Ozpin and her, Weiss, and Nora treating it terribly:

• The intent of the scene was likely to be that they thought Ozpin forced it on the Branwen's, and the execution, like a lot of things in Volume 5, failed.
• Reaction-wise:
  • Yang has major issues regarding Raven, even outside of her Abandonment issues, and only learned of the Secret War because of her. She had little information to go on outside of that and as such had no technical reason to distrust what she said after seeing it for herself. Add in her behavior post losing her arm, namely being more volatile, stubborn, and quick to anger, and she's near constantly seeing red and as such quick to accuse Ozpin.
  • Weiss meanwhile has issues trusting those who think they know whats best for her like Ozpin, and like Yang, only had Raven's word to go on, unreliable as it may be.
  • Nora meanwhile has little reason to trust what Ozpin says after being given a crash course by Qrow. Remember, the only one who outright trusted Qrow after his talk with RNJR was Ruby, and only because he's her uncle. Jaune may have been the only one to visibly react negatively to Qrow's answers, but Nora and Ren were just as on edge too, Nora even expressing disbelief when Qrow didn't want to answer why he wouldn't travel with them after doing nothing but giving answers.
  • In the long run, none one sans Ruby had a reason to trust Ozpin and Qrow aside from "they claim to be the good guys". They were all forced into the Secret War,^note Yes, forced, as RNJR were just trying to avenge Pyrrha before being attacked by Tyrian, Weiss was trying to escape an abusive home but was kidnapped by Raven, and Yang was trying to bring Ruby home and got an Info Dump from Raven found out that their professor had not only been keeping this a secret from the world for centuries and was now possessing a little boy, but had possibly been using them for some time now,^note Namely through Pyrrha being the Fall Maiden candidate and as Jaune suggested, using Ruby as bait and are presented with the possibility he forced one of his followers and a former follower into being birds against their will. It would have been more absurd if they all just suddenly trusted Ozpin and Qrow immediately with no concerns and believed everything they said without question.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 10th 2019 at 3:32:28 PM

Vegeta: I'm back bitches!

Dust is a physical resource that can be excavated, refined, perfected, and then used. That's decidedly not supernatural. Semblances (and Aura) are an inherent part of every person living on Remnant, and thus can be easily considered just a biological/metaphysical part of a person living there. Magic is not these things.

Who possesses that kind of Semblance? But no, actually, it's more like a underslung shotgun under a gun; it's something extra that works alongside your Aura and Semblance, which you cannot acquire by normal means.

The medieval man was used for the sake of an example, so there's no need digging there.

I do not discourage complaining about that in the slightest, although given that Yang and Weiss were both privy to a Maiden manipulating the weather on a whim with a snap of her fingers, that might have left an impression. If Bird Powers come from the same vague source, who's to say they don't indeed go beyond mere "i am birb"? And, to be fair, Yang in particular was still nursing the warning Raven left her as they parted.

Given that association with Ozpin has dragged her, her friends, and her family into a cosmic conflict between two remnants of the old world that may or may not be pointless, I'm willing to cut her some slack. Rebel Falcon was kind enough to explain the rest far better than I would be able to.

How do lizards fly?

Their reactions are more akin to disbelief than outright fear. Ren's reaction especially.

Ren: (Absolutely deadpan) "You turned them... into birds."

The only people who are anything but are Yang and Jaune, for obvious reasons. That is to say nothing about how it's minuscule compared to "Every time I die, I immediately possess an unwilling person and eventually merge their ego with my own conglomerate", which, may I remind you, is something RNJR had been informed about, with Oscar having that extra nugget of info regarding being just another one of Oz's lives.

In short:

Yeah, but... he's turned them into    birds   .

Now, if Ozpin turned the Branwens into the likes of, say, kakapos or dodos I would find their angst more understandable.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Now I will be forever curious what was in the original post that made one of the mods visit us.

I think we made a dodo joke already while discussing Cinder's backstory.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 11th 2019 at 3:33:55 PM

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.

Some offensive comment regarding a youtuber and his fandom or something like that. I kinda glazed over it once I figured out what it was saying. Nothing particularly important.

It was basically "lol, you're subscribed to this one guy who's a dick so that makes you a dick too!"

It's a 'joke' that's both wrong and unfunny. It needs to die off.

If you can't handle being outed by a signature, that's on you.

Ok, since we have to wait for volume 7, let make said some stuf.....like.....that it, what warhammer army would belong each chararter:

Yang: Imperial fist, I mean yellow pallet, pain glove, is all there.

Ruby: Blood angels, I mean sanguinius was seen as best primarch a kind of simple soul....granted if ruby share his fate......

Weiss: I dunno.....

Blake: raven guard, yeah really.

Raven: Ashen claws(pre corax marines, notorious for is ruthlessness)

Qrow: The lamenters, which if anything show how conected he is to ruby than is sister.

Ironwood: Ig/ad mech combined forces it, the guy is pretty much a comissar with bionic augmentation, I will said he is a mordian.

Winter: Same as Ironwood, probably in the same army actually.

Ozpin: the guy is a perpetual so it could be anything, I will said tau or an inquisitor, he is more malcador than the emperor.

Jaques: malevolent marines, nuff said.

Jaune: Sister of battle, hell I would love to see Jaunce cosplaying one XD.

Phyrra: She is pretty much and Ultramarine to the core: Corage and Honor.

Nora: Her influence said Space wolfs but for me she is closer to storm warrior.

Adam: Is hilarious to said but he is a black templar: zealot, insande, close combat and pretty much showing their motto" No mercy, no quarter, no respite!", is also intersting the templar the most famous succesor chapter of imperial fist who I link to yang....

Salem: Demon prince of chaos undivided with demon/chaos marine army, probably black legion of world beares.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"