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Apr 12th 2019 at 2:57:43 PM

The Germany applicability was brought up before, and we realized it was too complex for the writers to have gone with that metaphor on purpose. Even Monty couldn't have.

Darthwyn Solar Empress from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Solar Empress
Apr 12th 2019 at 3:18:42 PM

Not really sure a few people is enough say 'we' agreed but chances are more likely it is general discrimination.

The fact that it looks similar to actual situations does it has worked for people to some degree.

"I shall ensure that the sun never sets on the solar empire, those that oppose my divine right to rule shall feel the power of the Sun."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 12th 2019 at 3:33:15 PM

@Tharkun140: RWBY is also really bad about sending mixed signals; like for example the whole thing with the Gods; they come across as really unsympathetic, and if "learn to accept the inevitability of death and move on" is supposed to be the core aesop of this show, then it's pretty much doomed to be either a Broken Aesop or a Space Whale Aesop because of the introduction of apparently perfect resurrection.


I'd kind of like to see the show deconstruct that aesop; and point out that you can't just wish the past away and move on like nothing happened, because humans aren't perfectly enlightened emotionless robots; we're emotional, irrational and flawed. Repressing grief and negative emotions in general is profoundly unhealthy, and in the long term totally unsustainable.


If they do end up "breaking" Ruby, that would be a good jumping off point for such a deconstruction.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 12th 2019 at 6:33:32 AM

Kylotrope The demon that comes when you call it's name from Hawaii Relationship Status: Abstaining
The demon that comes when you call it's name
Apr 12th 2019 at 11:15:53 PM

@Capsase

Said Ressurection was established to be absolutely Awful for Ozma himself. And even the gods only did it out of necessity.

Now on the subject of RWB Ys themes. While some stuff could have been done better, I do think there's some good stuff. The White Fang becoming more Recourced as time went on could be Explained as them growing in numbers and Taking in more highly trained people, as well as them stealing weapons, supplies and such(As we see them do in the Black Trailer and with Torchwick)

Also, my only BIG complaint on the Racism arc is the whole "Let go of the past thing" makes me think of all the "Best way to make Racism go away is to stop talking about it" nonsense. But even then I doubt that was the Intentional, especially as the show Averts the treatment of "All violence is Equally bad"(Thank God because That would be the crowning Broken Aesop in an Action series) By having Sienna Khan very much not be on the side of the Geniunly "Just as bad as the oppressors" Adam. Potraying her, at worst as the lesser of two Evils.

Agreed though that I'd like to see the show avert the "Move on" Aesop. That's actually kinda bugged me sense volume 1. As The over All message of the series seamt to be that positivity is always better.

Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 12th 2019 at 11:17:25 AM

I look at humans. I look at monsters. And all is see are parasites that must be destroyed. Human world ? Monster world ? All cesspools
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 13th 2019 at 7:11:21 AM

[up] It ended up being awful for Ozma because of how it pitted him against the love of his life in an unwinnable Forever War, and before that ended up happening neither he nor Salem seemed particularly bothered by the prospect of eternity so long as they had each other.


I also don't see any real necessity for the God of Light to resurrect Ozma or set up the whole relic scavenger hunt. Salem wasn't even a threat before he decided to involve himself in the lives of the creations he and his brother cast aside, and even now the threat of his ultimatum is much bigger than anything Salem is capable of doing on her own.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 13th 2019 at 10:12:12 AM

Kylotrope The demon that comes when you call it's name from Hawaii Relationship Status: Abstaining
The demon that comes when you call it's name
Apr 13th 2019 at 11:46:02 AM

Ozma very Clearly didn't want to get Ressurected. And practically begged Salem later on to stop all this so they could both go to the Afterlife.

I look at humans. I look at monsters. And all is see are parasites that must be destroyed. Human world ? Monster world ? All cesspools
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 13th 2019 at 11:58:50 AM

[up] I didn't really get that; before the God of Light added "oh and if you fail us we'll destroy the world" and he found out that he would be resurrected by having his soul shoved into some poor sap's body where he'd gradually overwrite them, he was enthusiastic about being able to see Salem again, and the narration even pointed out that "he had found happiness" after the two reunite.

Darthwyn Solar Empress from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Solar Empress
Apr 13th 2019 at 12:13:15 PM

There is also the fact that he only really agreed to the idea of coming when it was mentioned that Salem was still alive.

"I shall ensure that the sun never sets on the solar empire, those that oppose my divine right to rule shall feel the power of the Sun."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 13th 2019 at 12:23:15 PM

[up] Yes, because what he wanted wasn't to be alive or not alive, it was to be with the people (person) he loved; his preference for being alive again was dictated by whether he felt it would be worth living or not. He was totally cool with it when he thought the answer would be yes, and for a time it actually was.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 13th 2019 at 3:30:49 PM

Kylotrope The demon that comes when you call it's name from Hawaii Relationship Status: Abstaining
The demon that comes when you call it's name
Apr 16th 2019 at 12:12:54 AM

He seamt to be fine living in the afterlife all those years. Only stopping once he heard Salem was alive after Humanity was wiped out.

A Minor comment but @Very Melon. Given all the complex and subtle fairy tale referecnes, I wouldn't sweep it under the rug that it was intentional.

I look at humans. I look at monsters. And all is see are parasites that must be destroyed. Human world ? Monster world ? All cesspools
Apr 16th 2019 at 3:41:22 AM

It definitely was not. Most people can plug a shout-out or two without much effort, but I do not believe these writers had the ability to convent something like foreign racist trends intentionally. It is, and always will be, a happy accident.

Kylotrope The demon that comes when you call it's name from Hawaii Relationship Status: Abstaining
The demon that comes when you call it's name
Apr 16th 2019 at 8:36:45 AM

That is your take, I'm not saying "a shout out or two" I'm talking about very subtle and clever references to each of the charachters respective fairy tales.

Also, not to be rude but please don't be so condescending. That is your take, not a fact.

I look at humans. I look at monsters. And all is see are parasites that must be destroyed. Human world ? Monster world ? All cesspools
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 16th 2019 at 9:07:28 AM

@Kylotrope: He seemed to have no memory whatsoever of there even being an afterlife, otherwise he should have noticed that Salem wasn't there. That was my interpretation of what we were shown at least, and it leads me to suspect the Gods are hiding something about what awaits the souls of their creation after death.


Though that's something that really needs clarification.

fishysaur Just your under-average loser
Just your under-average loser
Apr 16th 2019 at 9:24:10 AM

Honestly, I think most of the references aren't that subtle (of course it could also me just not noticing them) and are pretty obvious (like "Hazel and Gretchen", duh). It doesn't mean it's bad, the multiple references are a thing I like, but in general they stop at using a fairytale/mythological character and use it as base for a character. I can list quite a few works with much more clever references and more references.

I give credit for the name of Penny Polendina though. Although the references so far stop there, there's nothing else of her that references Pinocchio, barring the obvious "wanting to be a real girl". And now that I think about it, you need to read just the first chapter to find the nickname, which is actually "polentina".

Edited by fishysaur on Apr 16th 2019 at 9:57:26 AM

Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
Apr 16th 2019 at 9:28:01 AM

[up][up] Yeah, it would be nice to find out how the afterlife works in this universe, especially since the characters themselves should be somewhat interested in that. I get that the mission-related stuff occupies their minds at the moment, but it would feel natural if they at least paid some interest to the fate of their souls. Maybe not enough to use a Relic question for that, but enough to ask the guy who has already died how it felt and stuff.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Apr 16th 2019 at 6:28:39 PM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 16th 2019 at 9:52:41 AM

[up] My fear is that the narrative expects the viewers to accept the whole "love life, accept death" aesop as axiomatically true despite it being logically inconsistent in a setting where death is demonstrably not inevitable and there's no drawback to resurrections.


What I'd personally like (like, I would love the show to death if they did this) would be for the narrative to outright subvert that aesop and go down a road similar to Nick Bostrom's Fable of the Dragon Tyrant*, because of how novel that sort of direction is, especially outside of science fiction.


That's pretty unlikely, but if they don't provide an in-universe reason that resolves that logical inconsistency I'll be rather irritated, because the mark of decently thought out speculative fiction setting is that it recognizes the logical implications of major departures from reality and addresses them by providing in-universe justifications that address the logical inconsistencies introduced by the setting's fantastic elements.


* In which the actual aesop is the lack of logical consistency in the passive acceptance of the suffering of the human condition in cases where it is in principle preventable.

** Truly great speculative fiction doesn't handwave away those kinds of philosophical "problems" presented by its setting and instead internalizes it to tell an interesting story, and the very best examples of the genre do so in ways that are thought provoking and applicable, but it's too much to expect that kind of stuff from this sort of show.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:57:37 PM

Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
Apr 16th 2019 at 10:22:47 AM

[up] You have no idea how hard it is for me not to fanboy over HPMOR right now.

Anyways, as cool as it would be for RWBY to preach some original message, I am certain that they will not go down this path. "Love life, accept death" already seems to be a subtle theme in the series, regardless of how contradictory it sounds once you abandon your inherent "sour grapes" bias and think about it seriously for several seconds.

Apr 16th 2019 at 10:30:26 AM

There is a certain internet reviewer who recently did a review (not RWBY related) where he actually talked about this subject, or at least a similar subject. I don't remember the exact words, but he basically said that there is a reason why in any story where resurrection is possible, there always needs to be a drawback to it, otherwise there's no good reason why people couldn't just be resurrected left and right.

If anyone is interested I'll post the link to the review, but I won't do it unsolicited because I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to promote his stuff or something.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 16th 2019 at 11:04:15 AM

[up] I disagree that there needs to be a drawback, but if there isn't your story must address the philosophical implications it introduces. Which brings us back to the mixed signaling.


On one hand the "love life, accept death" messaging is a stock aesop, to be expected from a show that tends towards Cliché Storm / Troperiffic, and it's also been a soft running theme to a certain extent what with Ruby's Angst? What Angst? On the other hand, the Gods went soaring across the Moral Event Horizon with the whole genocide thing in their debut episode, which would tend to suggest we aren't supposed to agree with them.


That's the reason for my theory that they sustain their own cosmic power and immortality via feeding on the souls of the dead, who would otherwise be reincarnating naturally. It's a way to keep that stock aesop without implying that viewers should sympathize with the Gods.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 16th 2019 at 2:07:46 PM

Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
Apr 16th 2019 at 11:14:04 AM

[up] If the scenario with feeding on souls was correct, it would make having the Brother Gods as the final villains justifiable. It would at least partially make up for them not having appeared until six volumes into the series.

And to be exact, the gods commited xenocide.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 16th 2019 at 11:57:39 AM

[up] Or filicide on a global scale. That's actually another parallel between the Brothers' Grimm and Ozma/Salem; all four of them killed their own children, though for the latter two it was Unintentional.


Yeah, that's the sort of route I think the show will actually go down; it resolves the weird contradiction between the Gods (im)morality and the aesop they're preaching by making them in-universe hypocrites about it, while not fully vindicating Salem's complete dismissal of "the importance of life and death."


In the highly likely event that the endgame as far as Salem is concerned is for Ruby to talk her down, it allows there to be a gap between Redemption And Death to demonstrate her change of heart is sincere, unlike say Vader where all he does is die of his injuries after killing his master, which as a Sith apprentice is something he was supposed to do anyway.


The character dynamic of an Enemy Mine with the Ex-Big Bad for however many volumes the Gods were the top villains for would also be fun.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 16th 2019 at 2:58:53 PM

Kylotrope The demon that comes when you call it's name from Hawaii Relationship Status: Abstaining
The demon that comes when you call it's name
Apr 16th 2019 at 1:28:11 PM

The reason Ozpin Thogut Salem would be in the afterlife despite having been there himself, was that He just heard from the god of light that Humanity was destroyed, thus he assumed Salem would have been Destroyed with them and wanted to go back.

I look at humans. I look at monsters. And all is see are parasites that must be destroyed. Human world ? Monster world ? All cesspools
Apr 16th 2019 at 1:38:34 PM

There might be a drawback to resurrection in RWBY OZ was not brought back long enough to see drawbacks one i can see is that you can come back but does not heal you like if your sick your still sick or if you get shot in the heart by an arrow you still have the wound.

Or all the Fridge Horror in a world were death does not mater like overpopulation. Who gets to decide who gets brought back will the gods bring back anyone who ask?

What will happen to the jails if your in jail just kill your self and get a buddy to bring you back. what would happen if some took over the land near the gods we would have a group of people the can control life and death.

Not related to the life and death talk but how do Jails and prisons work in RWBY with Grimm being attractive negativity wouldn't Grimm be attractive to Jails and prisons like crazy.

Apr 16th 2019 at 1:56:24 PM

I assume the walls and airships and armies keep the Grimm at bay. Humans carved out a perimeter where there's so much distance between jails/prisons and the Grimm-infested wilderness that no significant force is going to make it through.

It probably makes city planning and zoning pretty interesting.

-deep breath- FIGH-TIIIIIIIING GOOOOOOOOLLLD!!!!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A*
Apr 16th 2019 at 1:59:07 PM

[up][up][up] That's not exactly obvious, because we were shown the world being destroyed and Salem wandering alone in an empty wasteland for what is implied a very long time before Oz gets called back from the afterlife, and then there's an immediate jump between Ozma accepting the offer and jumps immediately to him respawning in some poor sap's body with the second generation of humanity having been around long enough to build cities, so this is probably decades or centuries.


The narrative framing thus implies a timeline that wouldn't allow for Ozpin to be ignorant of Salem's absence from the afterlife without some timey-wimey stuff, which might be the case but if that's the explanation it needs to be explicit. This isn't just the case of vague timelines for when characters got to point A or B, it would necessitate that we were shown events in Jinn's flashback out of chronological order.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Apr 16th 2019 at 5:12:11 AM


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