RWBY General Discussion

No need to be rude. I never watched Star Wars or whatever show that Bill Cipher Guy is in. So don't accuse me of not thinking, seriously. The only thing I had was what you wrote about this Bill Cipher. And I never said that Palpatine was not the Big Bad. I said that throughout the original trilogy, Darth Vader was the main adversary Luke and the others had to overcome, while Palpatine was acting in the shadows for almost all three movies. Again, he only had a screen time of around seven minutes spread across three movies. Just because he is Vader's chef doesn't mean he is the main adversary. You can't be that, if you only appear for seven minutes. Let me ask you this, with whom was Luke more concerned throughout the movies, Vader or Palpatine?

I didn't watch Star Wars but I know this much.

Edited by bandersnitch on Mar 23rd 2019 at 4:25:49 AM

The truth is it doesn't matter what type of villain you right as long as you write them well enough that people dislike them in the right way, even if a minor fan contingent pulls Draco in Leather Pants or The Scrappy on them.

Again, when people say main antagonist, they're talking about the Big Bad, which in the case of Star Wars is Palpatine for both the original and prequel trilogies. You're talking about The Heavy, which is what Vader is in the context of the original trilogy.

I was one of the people behind proposing the Family page, mostly so we could escape making a huge Continents page loaded to the brim with stuff. I can see why people think it's not optimal, so I'd like to propose something new: a divide into (other) secondary (Neptune, Coco, Vernal) and (other) tertiary/minor characters (Tukson, Faunus Blacksmith, Dee and Dudley). The division is as follows:

• Secondary characters have some manner of screentime that extends beyond a single episode. If the case can be made for them still being too small for this label (Team ABRN, for one example), then they could be moved to the other group.
• Tertiary/minor characters are largely one-shots or gag characters with no significance like The Shopkeep. This would also include characters that, while significant in a grand scheme of things, end up not doing all that much if at all (Amber, Bartleby?).
• An exception could be made for Atlas Military, since it's a clearly established group with some sort of chain of command and what not, just like WF (which exists in its current form on the page at the moment)
• Characters which clearly belong to a certain "faction" or "group" (Team CFVY would obviously be Beacon students, for one) could be specified as such in a smaller sub-group.
• "Other" page could be used for things that do not belong to the established order of things (chiefly the Gods and Jinn), while non-canon characters like Dr. Merlot and manga Grimm can either be moved around to respective superfolders (with a distinction that they are non-canon) or be made a new "non-canon" folder for them.

Sorry for rambling. I figured I could at least try to present what I had in mind.

They'd be treated differently anyway. They're the main characters, and the main characters generally do have their own character pages from the rest of the cast. So, even if they did split again, we wouldn't be moving them from the page. We call it 'Team RWBY page' but it's really 'Main characters page'. Same with Team JNPR. Though we call it 'Team JNPR page', it's really 'Secondary Main Characters page', which is why Team JNPR will always have Pyrrha on the list.

That's not what the show's done. Team JNPR clearly still considers themselves to be Team JNPR and Volume 6 even flipped the bird to people who refer to it as Team JN_R with that sledgehammer scene of how the survivors are always going to keep fighting like Pyrrha's still by their sides. The 'P' is staying put, and they haven't ceased to exist as Team JNPR.

My expectation has always been for the 'midnight moment' to happen to Cinder. The fairy godmother gave Cinderella magical help with a caveat — that the magic would disappear at midnight. Salem has very obviously given Cinder the same 'magical help with a caveat' in the form of Cinder only being a Maiden for as long as the parasite Grimm remains a part of her body (symbolised by the tattoo on her back). Salem will have to revoke Cinder's Maiden power by recalling the parasite Grimm.

My guess is that Cinder will first realise that Salem can do this when the parasite Grimm locks Cinder out from accessing the Maiden power. So, it won't leave her body, but she won't be able to use the magic. This will be her first warning that the Grimm answer to Salem and not to Cinder, and that Cinder being a Maiden is completely dependent on her remaining useful for Salem. Either she'll fall into line completely at that point, or she will continue to rebel until Salem revokes the parasite Grimm completely (at which point, it will leave her body, the tattoo will disappear and so will Cinder's Grimm arm). That will leave Cinder at the mercy of whatever pathetic death awaits her now that she is powerless. That, or she gets left to live the very craven, powerless, anonymous existence that she seems terrified to exist.

Either way, we essentially agree on the points that we're both waiting to see Salem and Cinder's alliance fall apart, and we're both waiting to see Salem revoke Cinder's powers.

I don't believe they're both planning for a stalemate. I believe Salem has her long-term goal of trying to reduce humanity to its worse divisions before using the Relics to summon the gods to witness how irredeemable humanity is (I won't discuss this bit in depth here as we've discussed it enough in the past and caused entire derailments because of it). I believe it's Ozpin who keeps planning for the stalemate. He went through that despair of 'discovering' that Salem cannot be destroyed; that despair doesn't manifest in him having given up everything — he's given up all hope of redeeming humanity in the eyes of the gods (so, in completing his divine mission), and now reduced his goal solely to preventing Salem from achieving her goal. From that has come his stalemate plan. He cannot rid the world of her so he cannot redeem humanity, but he can prevent her from destroying humanity and from obtaining the Relics — and so, that's his goal, that's what he plans for. Salem's frustration comes from the fact that, because Ozpin keeps fighting to stalemate, she cannot move beyond the stalemate to actually achieve her goal.

So, they are both stalemating, they are both unable to achieve their goals, but that's because Salem and Ozpin have both abandoned the original missions to which they were tasked (Salem's never entertained the notion of actually trying to understand the importance of life and death which is why she's trying to destroy everything, while Ozpin has abandoned the redemption of humanity in favour of simply protecting humanity from being destroyed).

In a sense, the problem Ozpin and Salem have is that they've both been fighting in circles for so long that they've become completely numb to what it is they're fighting for.

The way I see the relationship between the parasite Grimm and Cinder is somewhat similar. It's 'merged' with her, and we certainly agree on the theory that this Grimm is why Cinder could talk to the Wyvern and why Salem can tell that Cinder isn't dead (she can probably keep an eye on whatever Cinder is doing). I also think the reason that Cinder is able to have a Grimm arm (given that Grimm arms tend to dissolve when removed from their Grimm bodies) is because the parasite Grimm has manifested the arm in replacement of Cinder's lost arm. I'm still expecting that scarred eye to eventually open to reveal the burning red eye of a Grimm. As Cinder loses pieces of herself, it is replaced by the manifestation of the Grimm within her.

Which is one of the reasons why I keep referring to it as a 'parasite' Grimm. In effect, Cinder is slowly being consumed by that Grimm.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 23rd 2019 at 6:42:43 PM

So, just as a thought experiment, if Jaune ended up getting more focus that one or more members of team RWBY - like some people believe he already had - would we have to find a way to move him into the RWBY page, since it's really 'Main characters page'?

My own feeling is that Cinder's "midnight moment" wont end with her death or be the conclusion of her relevance as a character, but it will be more of a demotion and the point where she starts plotting against Salem, and I think what instigates it will be her attempt to get around Salem's orders not to kill Ruby. As for what Salem's current goal, I get the distinct impression that she learned to like being immortal and decided the whole "death" part of life and death was self-serving bullshit. She certainly wasn't in a rush to find a way to kill herself after Ozma's return, instead she was plotting to become a God alongside Oz.


I think that's what she's still after at least in theory (minus Oz), while in practice she has no idea how to actually beat the Gods (or if there is something she knows about, it would require Oz's help), and is instead intent on denying them the chance to pass judgement on the world for better or worse for as long as possible out of sheer defiance.


The big point for me is that the way Salem reacted to hearing Ozpin was taking the relic to Atlas goes well beyond frustration. Tyrian talking about how "all will be lost" if she doesn't act quickly, plus Salem dropping subterfuge in favor of acting directly in The Stinger all point towards Salem thinking she's in danger of losing the entire conflict with Ozpin, and the only way for that to happen would be for the relics to be united, and there's no way the current state of the world would qualify as "united" by any stretch of the imagination.


I'm guessing her interpretation off what happened at Haven is that Raven was secretly still working for Oz kinda like your and lured her followers into a trap, and consequently she doesn't realize that the vault of the spring maiden can't be resealed, and assumes Ozpin is bringing the relic to Atlas by choice rather than necessity. With the relic of choice being missing from Beacon's vault, it wouldn't be a stretch from her perspective to think Ozpin is gathering the relics at Atlas, the most fortified of the Kingdoms. To her it might seem like her efforts to demoralize Ozpin and convince him his mission is hopeless have Gone Horribly Right leading to him attempting to Mercy Kill the world.


We'll have to see. They kept Salem's present day goals a mystery even after showing us most of her and Oz's backstories (there's still substantial gaps in Salem's part though), and IMO it would be a waste in narrative terms to continue talking around it if it was going to just be a confirmation of what our heroes were already lead to believe by what Ozpin, Qrow, and Raven told them. I rather like the idea of the scenario where Salem stripping Cinder of her powers ends up coming back to bite not only her but the entire world in the ass in the form of Cinder becoming an Unwitting Instigator of Doom. Or if there's some means of communicating with the Gods beyond summoning them, that a few pages back by @Fergard when Cinder agrees to serve as the Gods' enforcer and execute their judgement in exchange for cosmic power and being included in their next creation.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 25th 2019 at 3:54:36 PM

I'm gonna Bring up the Raven Debate here again.

I read earlier that she and Illia shouldn't be listed as Anti-Villain cause there not villains there Antagonists. But looking at the trope Description, they both are textbook cases of it.

"An Anti-Villain is the opposite of an Anti-Hero — a character with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues who is ultimately villainous. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil. Alternatively, their desired ends are evil, but on a personal level they are far more ethical or moral than most villains and they thus use fairly benign means to achieve it, and can be heroic on occasion."

Both Illia and Raven qualify, as the two versions of this. Illias end goals are good and She had a very tragic background, but she still supports a Terrorist organization(Before her Heel–Face Turn of course) to achieve that goal.

Raven is, by contrast a Greedy, Opportunistic coward.....But is more Persoanlly "gray" then evil sociopaths like Cinder or Tyrian And can be Heroic on occasion(Giving Ozpin Info. Saving yang).

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 24th 2019 at 4:19:22 AM

There's nothing gray about Raven. She follows a selfish path of survival masked as "survival of the fittest" type of thing. That she saved Yang is just her bizarre policy of giving everyone one extra chance. Should Yang not get personally invested and head out to search for her, she would not appear in the plot until Cinder coerced her into joining the Haven assault.

She's better than Cinder, but that's an incredibly low bar to clear. If she ever ends up getting involved into plot, I can see her becoming an anti-villain though, if only out of her own selfish interest (if she doesn't change her ways).

Of course, as what Linda Richman from Coffee Talk might say, "Raven's view of Might Makes Right is neither might nor makes nor is it right. Discuss."

Edited by gjjones on Mar 24th 2019 at 3:35:08 PM

I will said cinder midnight moment with be tragic for Salem, because she have a very pseudo mortherly vibe with her villians, she acept faliure but not liars for example and in way I wonder if kill leo for stop him for taking.

Oh and @Bandersnatch

My issue is that you seem to make Assumptions on the stuff your not familiar with. I said Cipher was a Demon. You said that means he never had a choice of being Evil.

And yes, as Capase said above "Main Antagonist=Big Bad". Palpatine is the leader of the Empire, Wich is the rebellions and Luke's enemy, Vader is just his top Enforcer and The Heavy.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 25th 2019 at 11:58:48 AM

Just wondering, what if the main antagonist was a Hero Antagonist and mankind's only hope, and a protagonist was a Complete Monster Villain Protagonist responsible for all evil in the setting, which one would be the Big Bad?

@Tharkun

The Protagonist I think, Light Yagami is listed as the Big Bad of Death Note, Interestingly it seems to follow your Example really well(Right down to light being a Complete Monster)

@unknowing: Tragic how? I'm expecting it's more going to be something that comes back to bite Salem by leading to Cinder adding Salem to her "list" of people she wants revenge against. I'm also expecting it to be more of a demotion than a You Have Failed Me or You Have Outlived Your Usefulness.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 25th 2019 at 3:50:28 PM

Because in a way Salem kinda care for her, she have a twister motherhood relationship with people close to her, so I think cinder will betray salem, saying she is horrible and she will just "Im sorry" and....cut her power, probably killing her there.

IMO Cinder betraying Salem is more likely to happen just when it seems the heroes have won, Salem's been talked down, and everything's seemingly going to alright; this kind of setup where The Dragon is considerably less sympathetic than the Big Bad tends to result in The Dragon pulling a Starscream at the worst possible time and in the worst possible way.


Incidentally, I have a new quasi-theory about how Cinder and Ruby fit together narratively; they're foils to each other in that they're pretty much total opposites while at the same time having a common parallel with Salem post and pre-corruption respectively. Ultimately it's going to end up in a scenario like Vader or Kerrigan where the fate of the universe rests in the hands of the villain, and The Hero ends up inspiring them to make the right choice at/near the very end.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 25th 2019 at 8:40:17 AM

Huh, that does happen fairly often now that I think about it. You sure we don't have a trope for that?

Dragon Ascendant?

That's probably the closet, but it's a specific situation where the Big Bad is an Anti-Villain, The Dragon is remorselessly evil, and when The Hero talks down the Big Bad there's a Hope Spot before The Dragon takes charge and continues with the Evil Plan. The Big Bad usually gets a Redemption Equals Death after this. Off hand I can think of Mister Freeze from (Lol) Batman & Robin, Count Bleck from Super Paper Mario, Darth Revan from Knights of the Old Republic (in a roundabout Tomato in the Mirror way), and at least one of the Final Fantasy games, though I can't remember which.


Edit: Dragon Ascendant is close, and so is Bastard Understudy, but I feel like this may have enough examples to be even more specific; it's basically the two combined with a Big Bad who is talked down instead of killed.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 25th 2019 at 8:48:58 AM

There's no new trope there. The situation you're speaking of isn't nearly pervasive enough to be its own thing.

Edited by VeryMelon on Mar 25th 2019 at 8:51:23 AM

Yeah you're probably right, reading the trope page Dragon Ascendant definitely covers this sort of situation.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 25th 2019 at 8:55:25 AM

So because of drama in another fandom reminding me of this, when do you think we'll get an announcement of Qrow's new VA? I briefly considered that they might announce it at RTX this yeah but that would mean that Qrow wouldn't appear at all in RWBY Chibi. My current prediction is April 1st, but they might not have a new VA lined up yet.

My dream pick would still be either David Hayter or Quinton Flynn.

One critisism of rwby I do agree with, is the overabundance of charachters Like, ren and Nora are good charachters But....post volume 4 there just kinda....there? And don't really do much to contribute to the Story. Especially sense Other charachters Could easily take there place. Like Glynda, she Oozed potential as a charachter. She was the first Huntress we actually see, was part of Ozpins inner circle and of Ozpins inner circle her exact connection and Relationship with him being Mysterious....and then nothing happens with her. Especially sense her connection with Ozpin would have made seeing what happned in Volume 6 with her could have been interesting.

Yes I know her actress isn't part of RT anymore. Recasts are a thing.

@Shaoken

If I had to Pick...I'd go with Alex Hirsch honestly.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 26th 2019 at 12:36:21 PM

Overtime I grew less fond of Team JNPR precisely because they were given near-equal screentime with our 4 supposed leads. It worked better when the show was about the school, but even then they were a little too prominent for my liking. Cameo appearances here and there are fine, but by and large they shouldn't be co-leads.

Edited by VeryMelon on Mar 28th 2019 at 6:51:04 AM