RWBY General Discussion

Alright. I always Thought it meant "Charachter the Creator keeps putting in the Focus despite fans disliking them". I'll have to research it more. I don't even agree with her Critics so I'm fine with that.

I feel like if they went with she just wants power because she wants it all that would do is feed in how some people of the fandom thinks she just One Dimensional villain who Long Overstayed her welcome. People only think this because we don't have a back story yet.

Edited by Ryno_v on Mar 19th 2019 at 6:33:12 AM

Honestly, I Had a Headcanon/Theory that Cinder was the Sole Surviving daughter of Ozma and Salem.

I do hope that if they go with the Cinderella theme for her backstory that they highlight the similarities and differences between her background and Ruby's. At the moment they are opposites in a lot of ways (Cinder wants power for powers sake whilst Ruby wants to protect people and gains power without wanting it. Ruby was born with the power of the silver eyes while Cinder had to steal her great power) whilst similar in superficial ones (both are team leaders who use red as their primary colour scheme and are the held favourably by their respective benefactor). It's be nice to finally get some focus on the two-way rivalry between them rather than just all the focus on Cinder's grudge.

That would be completely inconsistent with how Cinder interacts with both Salem and Ozpin and would require the story to introduce some third kind of immortality to explain away Cinder being alive after all that time.

I don't feel brave enough to make any predictions, but I hope Cinder is a From Nobody to Nightmare kind of character. It would fit the Cinderella motive fairly well and could make Cinder admirable without making her any less of a monster.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Mar 19th 2019 at 1:19:51 PM

Well I can see most of your points even if I don't quite agree. But the Immortality thing would be simple. She'd simply inherit her mothers Darkness infected Half

My point is, in order for that to work, Cinder would need a purely biological kind of immortality, different from both Ozpin's and Salem's kind. Several characters, including her close associates think she is dead after the Battle of Haven and Cinder herself seems to be afraid of dying, if her reaction to Jaune's attack is anything to go by.

One could Assume sense shed only Be the the daughter of Salem and not be quite as infected with the darkness, her Immortality isn't QUITE as strong. As in it would stop her Aging, but unlike Salem can't regenerate. Or Her immorality does stop her from dying but not being Injured(Wich would explain why Salem knew Cinder wasn't dead, despite clearly not being Omniscient And not even seeing that battle(She didn't know what happned til Lionheart filled her in. And was unaware of Ozpins return). I know it's unlikely, it's just a fun idea I had

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 19th 2019 at 6:11:13 AM

@Shaoken: Honestly I think Cinder is less of a foil to Ruby as much as she is to Pyrrha, emphasized by how Cinder's new outfit is clearly based on an early concept art of Pyrrha, their shared Autumn season motif, that exchange about destiny, and how Jaune rather than Ruby is the one on the heroes team for whom things with her are personal.


My guess is that she'll have a similar backstory to what we were told about Pyrrha; raised in an environment where she was pushed to excel and overachieve, but in a far less nurturing way than Pyrrha, where she was pushed not only to be the best, but to be better than everyone else.


As for Cinder's future, I expect she's eventually going to get her powers revoked by her "fairy godmother." If I'm right about what Salem wants Ruby for, I'm thinking that will end up happening after Cinder discovers she's been replaced by her hated rival, and she does something ill advised like attempting an Unfriendly Fire gambit against her.

I will said cinder is well pass by any redeming backstory or quality, what we need NOW is her backstory to make sense of her.

I will said the same of Adam but he is so petty as chararter than anything else would sound awfull.

RE the character pages: I concur with the objection to dedicating an entire subpage for Team RWBY and JNPR's respective families; we can just shuffle them to other pages, giving them their own sub-sections on them where appropiate, and even follow the Cordovin approach by putting a brief sub-section for the Team RWBY/JNPR members of said families that refer the reader back to the Team RWBY/JNPR subpages. We can even expand on that by adding brief lines in each Team RWBY/JNPR character's profile section that refers the reader to the appropiate subpages for the entries on said character's family.

Edited by MarqFJA on Mar 20th 2019 at 1:22:04 PM

On the subject of the Character Pages, I have a few objections.

1. Like the others, I feel the Family page is unnecessary, when really they all have more fitting pages. Move Ruby and Yang's to Sanus, move Jaune and Ren's to Anima, and for Blake, well, see point 3.

2. I feel giving an entire page to Sanus is bound for disaster, as while Vacuo is small now, once the plot eventually moves to Vacuo the section will increase. So while for now it seems fine, we may want to divide it into a Vale page and a Vacuo page.

2.1. Speaking of Vacuo, with both CFVY and SSSN confirmed to be at Shade Academy now rather than their starting Academies, I think its better to move them to Vacuo.

3. Since the White Fang was once a peaceful organization, I think it would be best to move Ghira and Kali to that page under the Former Section alongside Ilia. Ghira is the former leader of the group, and Kali is confirmed to have been with the cause herself at one point before they both stepped down. Since they ultimately don't fit on the other pages, and would seem off to put them under "Other" it seems fitting, especially if we're including former members like Ilia. Move Tukson to that page too under former.

4. Sun should be listed under Friends and Allies, as like it or not, Sun was a heavily prominent character, if not one of the main characters (And no, Main Character is not the same as Title Character. JNPR are Main Characters but not Title Characters.) and was Blake's biggest ally for Volume's 4-5, and even beforehand. And while he's left the story for now, his promise of return is the writers way of saying he's coming back, so it seems more fitting to still list him with the other Friends and Allies.

5. Rename Solitas to Atlas. The only place worth caring about on Solitas is Atlas, and possibly Mantle, and since every character there is from Atlas, it fits better.

5.1. Move Cordovin to Anima. She may be Atlesian Military, but she's stationed at Argus, a Mistralian city. And no matter how much hot air she spews out, its still foreign soil she's on, not Atlesian soil.

Your suggestions seem to be somewhat inconsistent. You think that Kali and Ghira should be moved to the White Fang page because they were a part of the group at some point in the backstory, yet team CFVY should be moved to Vacuo subpage because they transferred to Shade Academy halfway through the story, neither of which sounds particularly reasonable.

I suggest we generally sort the characters out based on the context they were introduced in. The first time we see Ilia, she is fighting on the behalf of White Fang. The first time we see Cordovin, she is speaking in the name of Atlas Military. Granted, that can be used as a justification for creating a "Family" folder - it would make classifying Raven a bit easier - but I'm still against it for the reasons I already listed.

Typically I'm in the market for putting characters based on where they currently reside/are currently aligned. So since CFVY and SSSN are at Vacuo, I'd say move them to Vacuo. I was the one who originally suggested moving Ilia to the "Kingdoms" Page after she left the Fang, and she was moved there right under Ghira and Kali.

The only reason I suggest moving Ghira and Kali to the Fang page is because aside from the "Other" page which seems a bit odd to put them in, there is no place for them outside of the hypothetical "Family" folder. They live in Menagerie, and they are the only two major characters from there not allied with the Fang outside of Ilia, and even she was with the Fang for most of her air time in Volume's 4-5. So rather than shove them off to the "Other" folder, I figured do the same thing we have for Ilia and put them under "Former".

I mean, its not like we'd make an entire Menagerie folder just for those two.

So while normally I'd not suggest such a move, It's the only one I honestly think works right now without shoving them into "Other".

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 21st 2019 at 2:41:07 PM

Is there a reason we can't go by either birthplace or allegiance, depending on which is more prominent with the character?

That's the idea, but the specifics are somewhat hazy.

Whether or not a character is playing the role of antagonist or villain has nothing to do with whether or not they're sympathetically portrayed. Heroes can be unsympathetically portrayed and still be heroes rather than villains.

Starting out just as evil and sadistic as she is currently portrayed seems like a bizarre thing for this show, given that the villains who have so far had some back story coverage have had 'descent into villainy' aspects to their back stories. The very idea of a character being based on Cinderella implies that kind of 'descent into villainy' aspect will exist for her back story. Indeed, the very comment 'I want to be strong, I want to be feared, I want to be powerful' suggests someone who has come from that kind of background, where they were weak, terrified and powerless.

Also, the Cinderella fairy tales I know of where Cinderella ends up evil by the end of the tale, are all about how she descended from a good, abused girl into an evil person who abused the power they were given.

Since when did having some sympathetic aspects to their back story automatically equate to moral greyness? Just because a villain might have had a trace of goodness somewhere in their past, it doesn't make them any more 'good' or capable of 'good' in their present.

Cinder isn't 'I want to kick puppies just because', she's 'I want to kick puppies but the audience doesn't know why'. What we do know is that she flips out and flies off the handle whenever someone renders her powerless for even a moment. We've seen that with Ruby and with Jaune. We have no idea how she feels about Raven, but if her character is consistent then she's going to want to kill Raven, but she's not going to do that until she knows she can actually beat Raven (currently, in a straight fight, Raven won, so it's in keeping for Cinder to power up before picking that scab — Ruby and Jaune were different, however because she doesn't regard Jaune as a threat and, while Ruby is a threat to her power, she doesn't really seem to regard Ruby as much of an opponent beyond that silver eyed power).

Considering how many elements CRWBY have taken from Wicked, it is my secret fear that Cinder will eventually be revealed to have been Ozpin's daughter (a daughter he didn't know he had, just like in the story).

The one hope that this isn't the case is the fact that the original story basically turned the Wicked Witch of West into the unsung hero by villainising (yes, made up word, I know) the protagonists — it's the kind of revisionist crap I can't stand because it's basically glorified fanfic. But, unfortunately, there are elements in this show (such as Ironwood having a thing for Glynda). Even without knowing Cinder's background, she doesn't play this kind of role in the story, she doesn't have any past with Glynda, and she isn't playing the Wicked Witch's role (Salem is, and already has the obligatory intimate history with the Wizard, albeit as secret wife rather than secret daughter).

The thing about stories is that some of the worst kinds of villains can end up having some kind of redeeming back story or future arc. I've seen villains a hell of a lot worse than Cinder get the redemption arc.

It's something you should never rule out from a story until that story has finished.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 23rd 2019 at 6:03:55 PM

Apologies for the double-post, but I wanted to deal with the sandbox separately.

I'm personally not a fan of it either. However, it was one of the suggestions, and I'm currently using the suggestions to get the ball rolling.

My preference would be for there to be no Family page and those characters being absorbed into the continent and World of Remnant pages. I'd put most of them onto the continent pages, except Blake's family which would go on the White Fang page and Nicholas Schnee, who would join the King of Vale in the History section. Reasons: the White Fang page has a 'former members' section, and the World of Remnant page has a section for dealing with historical characters who have some kind of impact either on the setting, characters or plot. Nicholas Schnee's impact on the world is just as great as the King of Vale's given the global reach of the SDC and just how dependent on Dust modern civilisation has become. That's before we get to the (implied, not confirmed) role he plays in Weiss's character arc.

I don't mind the rename. I'm not a fan of using 'other', so anything's an improvement.

I don't like the sub-sections idea. They can just go into their relevant continent/kingdom section like all the other characters. Their sections will inevitably mention their relationships to the main characters anyway, so the linking to the main characters will be easy enough to slip in.

I did the continents the way I did under the assumption that we're going to have to eventually separate Vale and Vacuo. I was thinking Western Sanus (Vacuo) and Eastern Sanus (Vale), given that's how their locations are described in the World of Remnant episodes (Vacuo was described as being in the western part of the continent and Vale in the eastern part of the continent).

I'm fine with splitting them from the start, given that Vale's section already dominates the page. It will save having to do the inevitable work later on.

I was thinking about this when setting up the sandbox. I decided to leave as is for now because I was only getting the sandbox to the 'suggested' stage we'd reached at that point. I figured that things like the new locations of CFVY and SSSN would be best discussed, rather than me going off on my own.

One of the things I'm not convinced about right now is moving either team yet. That's because we haven't reached the Vacuo part of the storyline yet. The show hasn't told us at all that CFVY have gone to Vacuo. We only have meta knowledge (interviews with the creators) for that information. I don't even know if the novel has been published yet, but the show's perspective leaves us believing they're still in Vale. Further, we haven't even decided yet whether we're going to mix troping the novel and troping the show in the same place (other things have been getting their own namespaces, so we definitely need to decide how we're going to handle the novel before we move CFVY anywhere.

Regarding SSSN, at the moment, they're just in Put on the Bus status. They've certainly been given The Bus Came Back options, but for all we know the heroes could get to Vacuo and discover that Team SSSN were killed en route and were therefore permanently off-screened. I know that's a very facetious scenario, but my point is that I'm not convinced we should do anything with them yet on the basis of an in-universe future that hasn't yet happened.

Completely agree. That's where I feel they should be. I think I've already moved Tukson there.

My objection to that is that the Friends and Allies page is currently the counterpart to Salem's Faction page. It's for the people who are helping Team RWBY against Salem, and who are therefore 'in the know'. Sun may have been a very strong ally of Blake's, and generally friends with the rest of the team, but he's very much not in the know and therefore excluded from the core storyline.

Although it's called Friends and Allies, there was originally a debate over whether or not to call it Ozpin's Faction instead, as a counter to the Salem's Faction page. We didn't at the time because Sun was travelling with Blake, and we didn't know how included he'd become in the core 'travelling adventure' storyline. Now we know that he's being excluded from it.

I don't think putting him back with his team lessens the importance of his role in the story for Blake's character development, but I don't think he should be on the same page as characters who are in the know about Salem and staying in the core storyline that's opposing her.

We should deal in continents or kingdoms, but we shouldn't be mixing the two. That's inconsistent for both page names and themes.

The reason for going by continents is because there are places and people based outside the kingdoms. We have absolutely no idea how the Atlas arc is going to go, so we cannot pre-empt that there will be nothing beyond just Atlas, especially as the show has been building towards a Mantle storyline.

Ultimately, whether the page is named Solitas or Atlas, it has to be treated the same as the other kingdom/continent pages.

That's where I put her originally, but someone argued very strenuously that Cordovin should be associated with Atlas because she's Atlesian military and technically goes where she's ordered. My personal preference is the same as you: put her in the geographical location in which she's based for this story (especially since her history with Maria indicates she's been in charge of that base for many years, so she's not on temporary assignment there).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 23rd 2019 at 6:00:08 PM

It doesn't, but the person I was responding to was clearly arguing for all villains to exhibit moral greyness.

Now for something actually worth responding to: I really don't think we should bother with sorting characters based on their current alignment or geographical location, but rather use the character's most prominent allegiance as our basis. If team RWBY got split apart again, it wouldn't be a reason enough to rearrange their character sheets accordingly, as them being a team would remain an integral part of the storyline even if they never got back together. Heck, if we wanted to accurately represent the current state of things, we should do something with the JNPR page, as the team has by all means ceased to exist after Pyrrha's death.

If there comes a point in which either team CVFY of SSSN becomes an important part of a Vacuo storyline, we might move their sheets there. Until then, let's keep them when they are. By the same logic I would argue for moving Ilia to the main White Fang subsection, but that's such a minor difference that I don't really care either way.

Edited by Tharkun140 on Mar 22nd 2019 at 1:46:06 PM

I clearly did not. The example I used was even the Joker, who has a backstory or view point that can invoke sympathy or make the conflict against him more complex, but doesn't make him anything but evil. I advocated for a semblance of greyness, something that prevents them from being pure evil not for the villains to be morally grey.

So you are for something that keeps villains from being pure evil but doesn't make them anything but evil? Either I'm missing something, you're being contradictory or you need to work on your wording.

Anything but evil and pure evil are not the same. The former means that the character is without a doubt evil and cannot be classified as good or gray. You can have some grayness, some sympathetic traits but still be unmistakably evil. Like the Joker for example. Being pure evil means, that someone isn't even that.

I think I see What you mean. Its the Difference between Ronin from guardians to Ego from guardians 2. Both are pure evil, but ego has lots of personality and is very Complex in contrast to the more boring Ronin.

Your using the wrong words here, they aren't "Sympathetic" or pushed into a moral grey. There still pure evil, having personality dosent change that.

Id Also recommend Just....Thinking of things before you type them. For example claiming Palpatine from star wars wasn't the Big Bad of star wars despite being the picture for Big Bad. Or claiming Bill Cipher was Made of Evil

@Wyld: Cinder's tendency to go ballistic when someone makes her powerless is the reason for my own expectation that she's going to end up turning on Salem after getting her powers revoked; that's one way I could see the Gods being brought back into the story; Cinder believing she can get one over on Salem and uniting the relics without actually understanding the consequences of doing so. That works especially well if both Oz and Salem have no long term plan beyond stalemating.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 23rd 2019 at 6:29:58 AM

I made a Differant theory involving Cinder....

Remember that big Grimm that came out of her hand in her fight with Amber that Absorobed Ambers power?

My theory is that the bug Grimm is Cinder, And the human body is the host. It explains her motives, She wants to be feared. Grimm feed off negative emotions. She's capable of communicating with the Dragon Grimm in Volume 3. Rubies line when told the silver eyes only affect Grimm "But they reacted to Cinder" And Salem has a sort of connection to the Grimm. So it'd explain how she knew cinder wasn't dead.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 23rd 2019 at 3:20:11 AM