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The two Gods are equals and opposites from what the creation myth told us; an unstoppable force clashing with an immovable object, and what Salem did was ask for a second opinion without mentioning the prior ruling, the whole part where the Gods nearly ended up coming to blows was a complete accident that feels to me like it exposed deeper underlying disagreements between the Brothers. It's not all that hard to imagine someone actually coming to the God of Darkness first to ask for a resurrection, and if that had happened it might very well have come to blows.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 13th 2019 at 1:02:20 PM
I forget, didn't Salem claim she came to the God of Darkness first?
Nope. She omitted that nugget of information when she went to darkness. Light told him during their spat and...well that's when Salem got cursed.
I think you misread my question, since it looks like you read it as "did she simply not say she saw the God of Light first". My question was did she actively lie and claim that she went to Darkness first.
Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 13th 2019 at 12:31:59 PM
I don't believe she explicitly said so, but she deliberately avoided mentioning that she'd gone to the God of Light and been turned down. The God of Darkness seemed to mostly grant her request because he was tickled that a mortal would think to come to him first instead of his more-popular brother. So when Light God shows up and told him the (whole) truth, he got annoyed that Salem had lied by omission, so punished her for her deception.
I agree that the standard "don't mess with the gods" myth would actually be a good setup for a Rage Against the Heavens plot. The problem there is twofold. One, the god are already gone, so just don't summon them back and you won't have to kill them anyway. Two, the character with the most reason to be anti-gods is Salem, who still wants to.... actually we still don't really know Salem's ultimate goal, only that it's Presumably Bad and involves the relics. But she's willing to destroy entire kingdoms over it, so fuck her nonsense, whatever it is. Which means the protagonists have very little reason to sympathize with her god-hate.
It does raise the question of would the outcome have been different if Salem had been more honest about everything and spun it in way that her coming to him was her realizing that she trusted the wrong brother and believed he would understand her plight more?
"Which means the protagonists have very little reason to sympathize with her god-hate."
I doubt that the show would devote an entire episode to showing this backstory with the gods if they weren't going to get involved in the present day stuff at some point. Whether that's because Salem summons them, or because Ozpin summons them, or even because they end up accidentally being summoned when all 4 relics are brought together. Whatever the case, they will probably be back, and then they will be everyone's problem, not just Salem's.
Somehow I doubt it. He probably still would have felt insulted and refused to help.
Edited by Neveratall on Mar 13th 2019 at 3:38:24 PM
My guess is that that the Relic of Choice will (three times every one hundred years) give the wearer two options. If the wearer has a dilemma, it can ask the Relic what to do. The Relic will give the wearer a run down of the options available to them (especially if they're options the wearer didn't realise they had available to them), along with the pros and cons of each option. It's then up to the wearer to choose which option they wish, and the Relic will help them realise that option — for good or ill.
In other words, while the Relic of Knowledge cannot give knowledge about future events, the Relic of Choice can — but only within the explicitly narrow scope of the specific dilemma presented to it. It becomes to the angel and devil sitting on each shoulder that Jinn becomes to the Genie in the Lamp — instead of 'good' and 'evil', the Relic of Choice would be more akin to 'God of Light' and 'God of Darkness' (a peaceful or destruction path).
As I have said many times before, I believe the vault underneath Beacon is a red herring. The statue in the courtyard is the real entrance to the real Vault of the Fall Maiden and it contains two people standing over a snarling Beowolf. The statue will commemorate the appearance of the two manifestations of the Relic of Choice. After all, the usefulness of placing an axe in the symbology of the Relic of Choice is because axes can be designed for either war or construction (although... don't tell the trees that) — which means axes are a choice between building civilisation and destroying it. The fact that there are two of them doesn't simply represent two choices, it represents two entities.
That said, the Relic of Destruction interests me because the symbolism of Vacuo suggests that the sword can be split. Now, either the symbolism is a sign that the sword can be used in whole form or two halves, or it can be split into three parts. I favour the interpretation that it can be used as a whole or in two parts because of the line down the centre of the image. Just to give you an indication of how long I've had all these theories about the Relics, when Jinn's reveal episode happened and the God of Light produced the physical form of the Relics, I was looking at the sword, searching for a sign that it might be able to be split in half — there is one, the design looks like one smaller sword slotted into a larger whole. In fact, the design of the sword looks almost like there's an arrow head in the design, too.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Relic of Destruction was Remnant's very first 'multi-purpose' weapon. On that note, I know a lot of people think the Relic of Creation is a spear, but I think it's a wand (or, perhaps more accurately, a wizard's staff). While the point is very sharp, it's not two dimensional (it's a diamond shape, not a quadrilateral — think of the difference between a pyramid and a triangle). More importantly, there's an ornamental swirl design (also seen on the sword hilt) that also covers most of the sharp end which frankly ruins its ability to be used as a stabbing object.
So, what do you associate with the ability to 'create' in a fantasy world where magic exists? The staffs and wands of wizards. It might also be possible (within the context of the world of Remnant) for it to be mistaken as a 'royal sceptre'. Now, Ozma used to fight with a royal sceptre and we don't know if the staff was transformed into the cane, or the cane was built to hide away the staff in a sort of hammerspace. However, as the King of Vale, he might have resorted to using the staff openly (hence royal sceptre). If he stuck with the cane, however, the royal sceptre had to be something else — and, given that he was very likely using the Relic of Destruction and Relic of Choice, he could have been wielding the Relic of Creation, too. At the very least, I do believe he used the Relic of Creation to create the Relic Chambers (after learning from the Relic of Knowledge how to do so and possibly using the Relic of Destruction to tear a hole into the 'between realms', with the tears become the gateways that can only be unlocked by the Maidens)
As you can imagine, I'll be looking very closely at the design of Atlas Academy, any statues that are there, and any vaults that we may end up seeing.
No, the answers were trampled to death by the stampede of the group to blame Ozpin for hiding the fact that Salem is allegedly unstoppable to such an extent that, not only do the blame him for absolutely everything (including the fact that their reaction actually completely justified his fears about telling them the truth in the first place — go figure), but they're doing so by.... not bothering to analyse any part of the story they've been shown except for the very end bit about Salem's allegedly unstoppable state.
For example, Yang boasted to Raven that she was taking Raven's lesson to heart and questioning everything when she flung that in Raven's face by questioning Raven, but it's an empty boast — she isn't questioning everything at all. It was even an empty boast at the time she said it (because, at that point, she'd only challenged Ozpin on one, single thing — the shapeshifting, which Raven had manipulated her into being prejudiced against it; that may have made her realise she needed to question what Raven had been saying to her, but it sure as hell didn't make her genuinely investigative about Ozpin). Volume 6 considers that cherry-picking theme of Yang's (which is certainly consistent characterisation): she latches on to the odd bit of information here and there that pisses her off and makes her leap to angry conclusions about; those are the things she questions — but only through the lens of her self-created prejudice. (Witness, for example, Yang's behaviour throughout Jinn's story: by the time we reach the scene in the between-realms space, the only thing we know about Ozma's role is that everything that's unfolded so far has occurred after Ozma died and he was neither party nor witness to — while Ruby, Weiss and Blake enter into the scene and watch the appearance of Ozma with a mixture of surprise, confusion and thoughtfulness, Yang is already glaring accusingly and angrily at Ozma from the moment he appears. She clearly made up her mind long before Ozma's reincarnations began — the punchline was an excuse for her to lash out, it wasn't the reason.
Now, like I said, this judgemental attitude has been consistent characterisation for her. She's been taught to wise up about her attitude in battle, and she's learning about that, so I'm hoping (given that this has been consistent characterisation) that she's ultimately on a path to greater wisdom and thoughtfulness in non-battle scenarios as well (she certainly needs it). People discuss which Maiden they'd want each main girl (excluding Ruby, including Nora) to be and, since Volume 5, I've been very on board with Yang eventually growing into the role of the Spring Maiden (instead of the more obvious Summer Maiden) given how the Spring Maiden has been so heavily connected to the theme of knowledge. I think that fits Yang's character story throughout the show — and would give us a good feel for what Glynda said about no two Maidens of the same season ever being alike.
Anyway, regarding Jinn's story: the only one who's shown any signs of actually bothering to analyse the full story is Maria. But we still don't know why Maria joined the party given that she clearly saw something that interested her and made a point of being caught with the kids. It wasn't Ruby's silver eyes, which means it was either the Relic of Knowledge or Ozpin's cane (or possibly even both): my first guess is that it was Ozpin's cane, and that she and Ozpin have a history — either as Ozpin or as the King of Vale (given her age, since she's clearly far older than Ozpin was, so it's possible she might have met two or even three incarnations of Ozma). While I don't expect her to have known Ozpin well (and Mistral was on the opposite side of the war to the King of Vale), I won't be surprised if the reason she managed to hide so successfully from the world is because Ozpin helped her disappear — and ensured she obtained what was likely to have been state-of-the-art eye surgery for its day.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Mar 13th 2019 at 11:28:31 AM
@NativeJovian: The protagonists also don't have much reason to sympathize with Ozpin's mission to bring back the Gods beyond not wanting the relics to fall into Salem's hands; neither outcome seems very appealing, and from that POV Raven's apathy towards everything makes sense; whoever wins, humanity loses.
I also strongly suspect the Gods will become involved at some point despite the protagonists best efforts rather than remaining exclusively background figures because there's no end condition for Ozpin's immortality other than him fulfilling his mission for better or worse.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 13th 2019 at 9:36:02 AM
I strongly suspect that Salem's ultimate goal is to gather the relics and use them to summon the gods so she can kill them. (Why she thinks it'll work any better than the last time she tried, I have no idea.)
I have the pet theory that because the current humanity is not the same as the original humanity (the most obvious difference is the presence of Fanuas and the lack of magic), the Gods have less power over them. So whilst magic is of no use against the Gods because they gave mankind magic, the humanity that was born from dust would have the means to rebel against them either through semblances or dust as neither were gifts from the Gods.
my theory is that Salem is gonna try to summon the gods to kill herself, though i do wonder if the gods would destroy everything but her if she were to summon them
Since it is pretty quiet here, I'll start a topic: Do you also believe that the Hypocritical Fandom entry on RWBY's YMMV page is very stretched? Aside from not fitting the trope's description at all, the entry seems to misrepresent the points critics tend to make. I don't think I have heard anyone blame the heroes for demanding answers from Ozpin, but rather for punching him - and Oscar - in the face and later shoving him into a wall. Not exactly hypocrisy. Similarly, there is nothing hypocritical about not wanting the heroes to give up while simultaneously not wanting them to sabotage Argus' defences, especially since the narrative portrays neither as something good.
I would say the question is settled at "Aside from not fitting the trope's description at all".
If it doesn't fit the description it's not stretched, it's flat out not an example.
Aside from, as pointed out by , "not fitting the trope description" already being a disqualifier, I also can't recall seeing anyone do what is being described in that entry. I get the feeling someone misinterpreted a lot of criticism and got that conclusion out of it.
Given my thoughts about Raven a few pages back and my suggestion of a sandbox rewrite, I'm guessing we should take a look at some villain tropes like Villainous Rescue and Villainous Breakdown and see if we can remove them with neutral tropes like the Rage Breaking Point trope when Raven loses it in "Haven's Fate." Thoughts?
I'm guessing it's some dumbass triggered fanboy. There's actually a few reviews on the show's page that are flagged despite there not being any real issue with them.
I already went and deleted the entry from the page, so that's one issue solved.
Edited by RedRob on Mar 14th 2019 at 10:41:50 AM
My first thought is "is it actually a Rage Breaking Point you're referring to?" Since I don't remember her being particularly ragey outside of her fight with Cinder. But I don't remember clearly enough to say with certainty.
Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 14th 2019 at 8:36:28 AM
We should Keep the Villainous tropes for Raven, I don't hate her charachter at all, but Being Complex and having redeeming qualities dosent mean your not a villain. She's far from Pure Evil but she's crossed way to many lines to just be Neutral.
Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 14th 2019 at 9:56:22 AM
I'd appreciate not being called a "Dumbass Triggered Fanboy".
I frequent the Subreddit, Wiki, Youtube, and with a large amount of hesitation, Tumblr, and I found a lot of people demonizing the cast for daring to demand answers when the fans themselves wanted them to do so, and also whitewashing Cordovin and villainizing the cast for their actions when they were just previously criticizing the cast for even entertaining the idea of giving up.
To elaborate, I've seen many accuse RWBY of being heartless for being angry with Ozpin while he was crying on the ground and after seeing his Dark and Troubled Past, and just as many angry beforehand for daring to look into his secrets without consent and not trust them, a frequent argument being "They signed up for this so they should just listen". I've also seen many people say RWBY and the others should be arrested for their actions against Cordovin and calling them entitled brats for not "Obeying their betters" despite the fact they had no other option at that point, and what they did was not only a Necessary Evil, but escalated by Cordovin. They didn't want a fight. They wouldn't have had a fight had Adam not attacked Blake and stopped her part in the plan. And then Cordovin made things worse by calling out the Colossus and trying to murder them, attracting the Grimm through the panic she was causing.
I try to keep my own opinions out of a lot of my entries since I'm aware not everyone shares my opinions. My honest opinion regarding the Ozpin vs. RWBYQ is that both sides were in the wrong, but were so wound up due to emotions that it came to a boiling point and led to an outburst. I'd elaborate more but I don't feel like typing an entire page's worth of discussion. My honest opinion regarding Cordovin vs. RWBY is that Cordovin was in the right for trying to stop the theft of her ship since it was illegal, but was in the wrong for not only abusing her authority by denying access to anyone non-Atlesian and letting them go straight ahead, when Ironwood explicitely said no one without the Council's permission, but for also going way too far in an attempt to assert her authority and mend her wounded pride, whereas RWBY did something wrong, but were left with little option if they wanted to get to Atlas, meaning they needed to perform a Necessary Evil.
I just report on what I see others have the opinions of. I may have used the wrong trope to record it however. I initially wanted to use Fan Dumb, but as that trope is not only Flame Bait, but also too extreme for something like this. So I went with Hypocritical Fandom based on what I thought it meant, a Fandom acting hypocritical. I'm hardly the only one to do something like that. Just look at the Crazy Awesome trope and how much its had to be cleaned due to widespread misuse based on what its called.
I still would appreciate however not being insulted for a simple entry.
And for the record, I didn't flag those reviews. I know that RWBY is pretty much on the level of Love It or Hate It nowadays, so for the sake of sparing myself the headache, I avoid the Review section.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 14th 2019 at 1:45:28 PM
This really boils down to how we define a villain compared to an antagonist. Salem's faction readily occupies the villain space and Raven doesn't fit in with that lot. I personally wouldn't call her a villain since that's not her function in the story. She's the darker shade of neutral, I would even put her as Lawful Neutral in D&D alignment terms.
Assuming from context that you're the originator of the Hypocritical Fandom entry on YMMV.RWBY, it may bear repeating that all of that is irrelevant if the entry doesn't match the definition of the trope.
I understand that. I just said I misinterpreted the trope. I was also trying to clear up the accusation of being an "Dumbass Triggered Fanboy".
Yes, if it wasn't obvious by now, I am the one who added the Trope, specifically on January 22nd. It hadn't been immediately taken down at any point in the following week, so I thought the entry was fine and left it.
Had I known the trope was Misuse, I'd have removed it myself, hit myself for making an idiot mistake, and either find a more suitable trope, or take it to the YMMV discussion section to see if there was any ideas there.
In Volume 5 she's very Clearly an Antagonist. Who just so happens to eventually go against someone who's worse then her. She isn't the main Antagonist, but Morality wise she's a villain. Albeit an EXTREMELY Dark Anti-Villain. She's only Neutral in the Conflict between Salem and Ozpin. As opposed to being Morally neutral.
And I think the stuff that used to be Listed on Hypocritical Fandom stuff involving Team RWBYQ Vs Cordovin stuff should just go under Ron the Death Eater.
I think your problem here is more one of perception. You may not be a "Dumbass Triggered Fanboy", nor did you want to sound like one, but that is how you ended up sounding nonetheless, due to what you wrote and, more importantly, how you wrote it.
See, from your description here, what it sounds like to me is that you were generalizing the reactions you've seen, reactions that you clearly disagree with. That, along with your accidental misuse of the trope and the manner which you wrote it in (which came off more as accusatory than anything else), led to an interpretation of your behaviour as "just another angry RWBY fanboy", which, as I think you'll no doubt be aware, is not a small demographic, and one that has been responsible for a few Edit Wars already in the past. Of course, as you said, that doesn't warrant the insult, and I'll admit we kind of jumped the gun on that a bit, but I hope you at least understand where we're coming from.
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