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TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#56576: Nov 11th 2018 at 1:15:51 AM

Ah, TL, Wyldchyld, does some of that maybe go in the other thread?

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#56577: Nov 11th 2018 at 8:55:16 AM

Sorry, not sure what you're asking. What does TL stand for?

I'm not a First Member and I avoid spoilers, so I don't visit the other thread. If there is something you want to post there, I'd suggest that either a First Member or someone who doesn't care about spoilers do it.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 11th 2018 at 4:59:44 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#56578: Nov 11th 2018 at 4:03:25 PM

In "Known by its Song", Raven mocks Taiyang and Qrow to Yang's face for trusting Ozpin, which seriously irritates her daughter. Would that count as a Kick the Dog moment or would a different trope apply here?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#56579: Nov 11th 2018 at 4:47:59 PM

No, that's not a Kick the Dog moment.

[down][down]It's definitely not Berserk Button and I don't think it's Relative Button either. Raven's body language at the time made it clear it was I Shall Taunt You. She clearly goaded Yang deliberately and the way she did it was quite calculating. However, what she wanted to gain from it was very ambiguous, and that's a problem for the I Shall Taunt You trope.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 12th 2018 at 6:24:14 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#56580: Nov 11th 2018 at 4:50:34 PM

it can be consider Yang berserk button or in universe dude not funny.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#56581: Nov 11th 2018 at 5:03:00 PM

[up] Unfortunately, the main Berserk Button has a text that says this:

This trope is not about anger in response to something that would reasonably enrage someone, like being hurt or threatened, having a loved one hurt or threatened, being seriously insulted and disrespected, etc — anger in those situations is a reasonable response.

Basically, that doesn't count as a Berserk Button. Maybe it's a Relative Button?

Also, I'm guessing that Raven is actually going to be a Jerk with a Heart of Gold the next time we see her (she will probably have to make amends for all the terrible actions she's done if and when her storyline is indeed explored in this volume or volume 7).

Edited by gjjones on Nov 11th 2018 at 8:36:43 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#56582: Nov 11th 2018 at 6:21:42 PM

The implication that Raven murdered the Spring Maiden in cold blood to steal her powers pretty sharply nixes that.

Like, a Redemption Equals Death or Death Equals Redemption resolution may still be in the cards, but a Heart of Gold is pretty much out of the question at this point. Raven's got some karma hanging over her head that will need to be resolved by show's end, and that probably won't be to her satisfaction.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 11th 2018 at 7:23:11 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56583: Nov 11th 2018 at 7:07:27 PM

Gotta say, I'm pretty intrigued by Oscar's little rebellion. What with him and Ozpin sharing a body, it'll make the group's growing distrust of Ozpin interesting when coupled with the fact that Oscar really had no choice in any of this, and feels very much the same way.

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#56584: Nov 11th 2018 at 7:14:35 PM

[up][up] Who knows? Maybe her fear of Salem will also come at a cost in addition to the Death Equals Redemption/Redemption Equals Death scenario we've described a few posts back.

Edited by gjjones on Nov 11th 2018 at 10:15:05 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#56585: Nov 12th 2018 at 10:11:40 AM

[up][up][up]It doesn't actually. I've followed works where characters have done much worse than Raven and still had change of hearts and switched teams and ended up supporting and helping the heroes. Depending on the work, there is technically no limitation on the crimes of the character that ends up switching sides and going on a redemptive journey or towards a redemptive outcome.

There are certain crimes that will rule out any chance of that and, if those crimes are involved, that character is essentially irredeemable. Cold-blooded murder isn't one of those crimes. Hell, cold-blooded torture isn't guaranteed to be one of those crimes either.


[up][up]That's what I'm wondering about myself. Up until now, RWBY and JNPR appear to have had no problem separating Oscar and Ozpin. They treat both differently and seem to take the switches in personality in their stride (a little too in their stride, I personally think). As a result, they may have legitimate concern about Oscar's situation. Not just because they've witnessed him fight so hard to side with them against Ozpin, but also because they've been able to create that separation between Oscar and Ozpin all along anyway.

I've said since V3 that Ozpin's role seems to be 'cool, quirky mentor loses the faith and trust of his followers when the Awful Truth comes out painting him in the worst light and causing the followers to turn their back on him (either giving up entirely or trying to go it alone), but eventually the best of him will be revealed and the true balanced picture of the man will be understood, thereby leading to a reconciliation'.

There's usually one of two scenarios — a learning curve for the protagonists (then returning to the mentor wiser and more understanding) or a learning curve for the mentor (usually one about ego, or sharing, or letting go of control, having/regaining trust and faith is almost always part of it). Often the 'learning mentor' option will include the 'learning mentee' option by default. So far, it seems like the second option is unfolding.

That's what the show is making us think is happening, which means the show is setting up the 'learn Awful Truth, abandon mentor and his cause' part of the journey. And we certainly see that Ozpin appears to be expecting exactly that to happen. The trouble is, it's been pushed so strongly in the past two episodes that I'm suddenly suspicious about the 'abandon' part of the traditional cycle. So, once everyone knows the truth, we have a couple of options:

  1. The girls decide to travel with Ozpin as far as Argus, but only because they're all travelling there anyway. The girls are out after that. Circumstances will probably intervene at some point to prevent or reverse this.
  2. The girls decide to travel with Ozpin as far as Ironwood. They'll couch it as seeing through the promise to get the Relic to Atlas, but then they're out after that. Circumstances will probably intervene at some point to prevent or reverse this.
  3. The girls make the decision to stand by Ozpin despite knowing the truth, for one of two reasons:
    1. They want the lies and secrecy to end. Now it has, they feel they can carry on with a surprised Ozpin.
    2. They're concerned about Oscar's inability to walk away from the situation and make it absolutely clear to Ozpin that they're sticking around solely to support Oscar.

All of these options may involve disagreement between the girls. I can even see Ruby standing alone in making a decision to keep going, and the others sticking around solely to keep Ruby safe. This scenario then becomes about how much can Ruby take before quitting on Ozpin — which brings the 'smaller, more honest soul' fully into play (as indicated by both pilot narration, Salem's V3 soliloquy and several of the songs). I also won't be surprised if Maria has some involvement in the final decisions, especially if it results in a change of mind due to unforeseen factors.

On one final note, I deliberately haven't mentioned Qrow. I think he'll put the girls' safety before any of his preferences. If they walk, he'll make sure they can do so safely. If they stay, he'll stay to keep them safe.

If Qrow walked, I can see one of two options: bitter drunk acknowledging his sister was right all along, or continuing the 'mirror' of Raven by deciding to stay with Ozpin when she chose to walk.

Since V3 (but especially since V4), I've said it'll be interesting to see what would happen to Ozpin if he ever lost Qrow's loyalty and support. In V3, he sometimes looked at Qrow for approval at times before continuing with Pyrrha. That habit became even more noticeable in V5. There are therefore signs that Ozpin relies more heavily on Qrow than any of the characters (even Ozpin himself, I think) may realise. He's clearly more upset about Leo than he wants to let on, but Qrow will be the interesting one.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 12th 2018 at 6:30:20 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#56586: Nov 12th 2018 at 7:42:16 PM

There seem to be stellar Youtube reviews for the season thus far.

Can't wait for "How RWBY Volume 6 fixes the show's biggest problems" to be in my suggested list, along with some 40-50 minute Mother's Basement video about how the show Won Back The Crowd and still has more work to do in order to become the next critically successful anime.

I still long for the time when this show was small and lesser-known, but it's warming to not be flooded with "RWBY is terrible" in my suggested list anymore.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56587: Nov 12th 2018 at 10:42:47 PM

So, think all of the relics are going to be "genie in a lamp" deals?

I have some thoughts on that, and what it could potentially means for some other things.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 13th 2018 at 3:14:06 AM

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#56588: Nov 13th 2018 at 12:57:54 AM

I think that the weapon relic is going to have a physical guardian to it but not one who resides in the relic.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#56589: Nov 13th 2018 at 1:11:21 AM

The relics took an interesting turn. Knowledge is a living magic 8-ball. Creation and Destruction will probably be what they sound like, similar to the Infinity Gems or the Chaos Emeralds from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.

But Choice? I doubt it will be a genie in the lamp, but what then? Will it be an Apple of Eden that removes choice, or... some kind of artifact that enables it? Will it be like a Geass? Maybe it's the Anti-Life Equation. How do you define "choice" in this narrative?

If they'd said "truth" or something like that I could believe it was a device for mass hypnosis, but no, they picked "choice."

I'm pleased with the Relic of Knowledge though. I thought it was going to have a direct, corrupting influence similar to the One Ring, and Yang starting to cry the moment she picked up the relic last Volume, right after confronting her mother, seemed to hint at the relic being more than it seemed. But, no, genie in the lamp that answers three questions. Doesn't appear to break the plot either.

Edited by Soble on Nov 13th 2018 at 1:12:04 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#56590: Nov 13th 2018 at 1:27:06 AM

Creation, Knowledge and Destruction are all rather simple to understand, but Choice? Given that we've seen human Salem at the end of this episode, I feel like I might have something.

wild mass guessThe Relic of Choice bestows incredible power upon you, at the cost of forsaking your previous life entirely and becoming its antithesis. A man thus becomes a Grimm, or the closest thing they could be.wild mass guess

Which reminds me of that movie where the fish villain drank so much intelligence serum that he became a monstrous half-human creature of supreme intellect - that could not breathe underwater due to its body's newfound limitations. (spoilered the ending just in case)

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56591: Nov 13th 2018 at 1:36:02 AM

Also, the schools are only like 80 years old or something right? So where was Ozpin hiding the relics before they and the interdimensional spaces were built, I wonder?

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#56592: Nov 13th 2018 at 3:15:27 AM

He probably relied on traditional fortresses and trusted allies guard them.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#56593: Nov 13th 2018 at 11:18:00 AM

If what wyld said is right and destruction is a sword then my choice will be said relic of destruction will be a reference of excalibur.

Just a though.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56594: Nov 13th 2018 at 2:23:44 PM

Incidentally, now that we know what the Relic of Knowledge actually does, it makes Raven's plans to steal it to protect the tribe even funnier.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#56595: Nov 13th 2018 at 2:35:00 PM

I no longer consider Raven particularly stupid. Just saying.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#56596: Nov 13th 2018 at 2:52:55 PM

Okay, lets leave the discussion about the new episode for a second and address another issue.

Its in regards to Ilia Amitola's placement amidst the characters. Troper buckyb moved Ilia over to the RWBY Friends And Allies page, while Troper Wyldchyld removed her and returned her to the RWBY: White Fang page. Reasoning being:

"The pages were agreed and structured on the RWBY Forum thread. The Friends and Allies page is only for those people who travel with Team RWBY on their mission. It is not for those friends of allies who remain geographically-bound to certain locations. The White Fang page is not an enemies page. It's a neutral page for Faunus who may be friends, allies or enemies depending on their role in the story."

While I can agree about the reasoning for RWBY Friends And Allies page, I can't agree with the justification for the placement in the White Fang page. The old White Fang organization was a Neutral Party, but that was under Ghira Belladonna. The current White Fang is an enemy page, comprised entirely of antagonists. When Ilia was a member, she was an antagonist, an enemy. It was only after she defected did she stop being one. Every other character listed there is an antagonist: Adam, Banesaw, The Albains, and Yuma were all Antagonists. The only one of questionable morality was Sienna, but even she condoned the radicalized actions of the group before Adam took it too far, and partook in attacks on the SDC, solidifying the terrorist classification.

Even notice that Ghira didn't desire to reform the White Fang, but to create a New Movement. The White Fang is an enemy group, not Neutral, and Ilia choosing to no longer be a member represented her no longer being an enemy. While I won't argue her being on the friends and allies page, I can't agree with her being on the White Fang page. To leave her there is to call her an enemy, and to call the group neutral is not only misinformation, but ignoring the moral alignment of every other character listed there and the things they've done.

As such, I argue she be moved to the RWBY Kingdoms section, namely the Menagerie section alongside former White Fang Members Ghira and Kali.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Nov 13th 2018 at 5:58:19 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#56597: Nov 13th 2018 at 3:18:59 PM

Agree on that front at least. It was where she was when she first entered the story.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#56598: Nov 13th 2018 at 5:40:57 PM

Also, the schools are only like 80 years old or something right? So where was Ozpin hiding the relics before they and the interdimensional spaces were built, I wonder?

Ozpin said he used up all three questions before he sealed them away, and we know the schools were created in the aftermath of the war, so around 80 years ago. It was later revealed he had only asked one, but it had to have been less than a hundred years ago, so eighty is still the best bet. I suspect we'll learn what question he asked because it'll be relevant, but the obvious choices are this:

  • 'How do I end the Great War?' (Which leads to whatever he did in the Vacuo campaign, which probably involved Relics, Maidens and perhaps even his own magic.)
  • 'How do I seal away the Relics?' (Which leads to the creation of the special chambers inside their own vaults.)

So, think all of the relics are going to be "genie in a lamp" deals?

I have some thoughts on that, and what it could potentially means for some other things.

Depends on what the other Relics turn out to be.

That said, since Vacuo looks like it has the Relic of Destruction and that this Relic will be a sword (probably one that can split into two swords the way Winter's can), my guess is that we'll have the King Arthur myth. So, the Relic will be a sword in the stone that only the worthy can draw.

How that unfolds depends on which version of the 'sword in the stone' mythology is used, including whether or not the sword in the stone is Excalibur or a different sword (with King Arthur having received Excalibur at a later date).

Just looking at the oldest sword in the stone myths (the Welsh sources), we're looking at a sword called Caledfwlch, a weapon so terrible no person could safely look upon it, with a blade that could shine so brightly its enemies were blinded and a hilt comprised of a pair of golden dragons (or chimaera, depending on translation) that would breathe fire whenever the sword was drawn.

From Caledfwlch came the names Excalibur and Caliburn.

Even if the Excalibur legends are used, what's less known about the sword in the stone (no matter what it's called) is that its scabbard would prevent the wielder from dying. They could be wounded, their wounds just wouldn't lead to death. In the legends that acknowledge the scabbard, Arthur first had to be separated from the scabbard before he could be killed.

Regarding the Beacon Relic, which is likely to be a crown (the Beacon symbol is a laurel wreath with a pair of the axes in the centre (which could mean two spirits — and the Beacon statue does have two individuals), and axes can be used for either the destruction of society (war) or the construction of society (peace)). There's a lot of folklore from right around the world about a Crown of Immortality, the wearing of which symbolised victory in terms of honour, wisdom and grace — everything the Vytal Festival stood for, in fact.

And, by immortality, I don't mean the crown made the person immortal in the sense that they would never die (although some legends do go that far), but that their reputation or fame would never die, or the ideals they stood for would never die, or simply that by wearing the crown a person was humbled by their own mortality and the mortality of others into doing/representing these greater (and lasting) ideals.

In all of the legends, these crowns convey some connection to divinity — either the person has overcome death or conquered the afterlife to gain some semblance or blessing by divinity. As a result, gods often wore these crowns, living people who were graced by gods wore them, or dead people who gained an honoured place among the dead wore them.

The structure of the crown would depend on culture — laurel for the Romans, laurel or olive for the Greeks, oak for the Celts, yet another plant for the Egyptians (my mind just went temporarily blank on what plant), and so on.

Both a sword and a crown may have some kind of empathic/telepathic connection to the wielder/wearer that would allow for communication. That's why tropes like Empathic Weapon or Talking Weapon exist.

I'm not quite sure what to expect from the Relic of Creation, as I'm not entirely sure what the Atlas symbol represents. It's like an ink brush (calligraphy) attached to a cog to create the face of a clock. That said, the Greek God Atlas was famous for two things — holding the sky on his shoulders and cartography (hence books of world maps being called an 'atlas'). As a result, the symbol of Atlas could actually be a compass that is pointing north. If so, then it could be that the Relic power is the ability to locate anything the wielder wants to find that will help him create a solution to some problem he has.

And, if so, perhaps that explains how Nicholas Schnee was able to travel the world finding all those Dust mines — because he had access to a divine compass in the form of the Relic of Creation.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 13th 2018 at 1:50:14 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#56599: Nov 13th 2018 at 5:44:57 PM

Well. I gotta say, if RT are aiming to earn back the disillusioned fandom they're off to one hell of a start. I never expected them to start digging into the Ozpin/Salem backstory and getting RWBY to question him this early. Gotta say though, Weiss and Yang drawing on Qrow was sad to see, especially with the look on his face.

Man, I hate the week-long wait for non-premium users so much.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#56600: Nov 13th 2018 at 5:59:01 PM

Its in regards to Ilia Amitola's placement amidst the characters. Troper buckyb moved Ilia over to the RWBY: Friends And Allies page, while Troper Wyldchyld removed her and returned her to the RWBY: The White Fang page. Reasoning being:

"The pages were agreed and structured on the RWBY Forum thread. The Friends and Allies page is only for those people who travel with Team RWBY on their mission. It is not for those friends of allies who remain geographically-bound to certain locations. The White Fang page is not an enemies page. It's a neutral page for Faunus who may be friends, allies or enemies depending on their role in the story."

It's worth me mentioning that my edit reason doesn't actually reflect my personal feelings on the matter.

My point was that the pages were created with specific intentions in mind and by consensus, and Ilia was moved without consultation once before and then moved back for that very reason. So she's already been taken off the Friends and Allies page once before and put back on the White Fang page (and it wasn't me who did that last time). Her move last time also caused spoiler problems as it happened immediately after a First Member release where Ilia switched sides, thereby acting as a reveal to members of the general public who wouldn't see the episode until three days later. It needs to be done by consensus is my point.

That said, I completely agree with your assessment of the White Fang page. What I cited in my edit reason was the justification given previously for why she should stay on the White Fang page as opposed to anywhere else. I also don't regard the White Fang page as a neutral page, given that the White Fang plays an antagonistic role, and is now being countered by Ghira forming a new organisation to promote peace and equality (as opposed to changing the White Fang's direction). The show clearly doesn't treat the White Fang in a neutral way.

As a result, I agree with moving Ilia to the Kingdoms page.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 13th 2018 at 2:09:11 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

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