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Historical Revision Is Not Something Your Mileage Should Vary On

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Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#1: Mar 2nd 2013 at 12:45:37 PM

I am sorry, Negationism to appease those who have too soft a stomach to admit the crimes of their grandfathers.

It is almost insulting that this is shunted off into "audience reaction" banner. It should at least be trivia or part of a useful notes page and if that is not the case then the section should just be deleted. It is insulting to categorize the real marginalization of human beings and their accomplishments in the same bin as fan outcry to fiction.

Let us argue this out, I will provide links to whatever is listed on this if you have questions or objections. We can make this a more academic page if necessary but it does not belong where it is.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Mar 2nd 2013 at 12:52:01 PM

We have a topic for Real Life sections in Long Term projects.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#3: Mar 2nd 2013 at 1:01:29 PM

I have no idea what exactly you're talking about. But if you're saying that history is something everyone can agree on, you clearly have not met (m)any historians.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#4: Mar 2nd 2013 at 1:27:11 PM

That the topic of revisionism is not one to be marginalized with argument over fiction that people choose to ignore. That it should not even be in the same section and is better off deleted if not moved.

What, you believe the Mongols killed more people than actually existed on Earth, that Saddam's name was always engraved in the Mesopotamian ruins? That there was no Jihad in Kashmir despite photographic evidence to say otherwise? That the Canadian government did not force the first nations unto reservations despite records stating the contrary or that the new testament does not in fact disparage lesbians.

Now if you want historians to agree on cause, details, time frame we could agree to disagree but if we go beyond that then we are talking about revisionists...I mean "negotiators".

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5: Mar 2nd 2013 at 1:30:52 PM

OK, I really do not understand you.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#7: Mar 2nd 2013 at 1:52:09 PM

Okay, historical negation/negotiation/revision, what term you prefer, it happens. I happens a lot. To deny that it happens makes you guilty of historical negation. Karl Marx even encouraged it, because if the workers know some of the problems perpetuated by the capitalist system in fact have roots in things that have nothing to do with capitalist policy, they will not be as zealous in supporting his communist goals.

Fanon discontinuity, that is of watching something stupid in a TV show and then pushing it out of your head, is not the same thing as historical negation and it is insulting to a historian to put the two in the same category.

You know, the Turks willing destroyed records of the Chaldeans they annihilated so that they could claim their government was never responsible for such a violation of human rights, because it was not on record? You know, how a school board in Texas would alter a history book because it correctly states Texas rebelled against Mexico because it wanted to keep its slaves? That is stuff we can objectively see in action and does not need the banner on top of a page listing such happenings. Trivia, Useful Notes, that is where it belongs or it does not belong on the Wiki at all...maybe it could be put on the Darth Wiki but not the subjective tab.

I suppose History Marches On also has the subjective banner right?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#8: Mar 2nd 2013 at 1:58:25 PM

If you're trying to argue that the Real Life section of Fanon Discontinuity should be cut (which I think you are), this thread is the place to do it.

edited 2nd Mar '13 2:00:18 PM by Nocturna

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:00:02 PM

Discontinuity.Real Life is in Fanon Discontinuity because a) history is written by the winners and b) the discontinuity is usually perpetuated by uninvolved people (=which aren't thus part of the "canon" in Canon Discontinuity)

No, he's arguing to make it an objective page.

edited 2nd Mar '13 2:00:27 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#10: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:02:28 PM

No, History Marches On does not have a YMMV banner because it's factual. Fanon Discontinuity is YMMV because which things people choose to ignore vary (although some fandoms have more consensus than others).

edited 2nd Mar '13 2:04:01 PM by Nocturna

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#11: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:10:49 PM

But when you have actual record of someone ignoring something that also has an actual record that is not an opinion. Written by the Winners should not be subjective either, it is also just a fact of history, just as the fact that new records and evidence change the story.

If you are intent on leaving this on the mileage may vary page though I will just request its deletion on another page. I would rather not give people the wrong idea than otherwise. "And then the Pope told the knights it was okay to slaughter people as long as they were not Christians even though Christ did never made such a statement in the Bible he knew they could not read, making him guilty of historical negation." "Fool, that is only your opinion! The Pope is infallible! That is my opinion!"

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#12: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:13:29 PM

...Can someone give me the cliffnotes version of what on earth he's going on about?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#13: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:15:14 PM

He wants to turn Discontinuity.Real Life into something more objective than a Fanon Discontinuity subpage.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#14: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:17:54 PM

...Why does Fanon Discontinuity have a real life subpage in the first place?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#15: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:19:48 PM

Why not?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#16: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:22:47 PM

Because to include people denying historical events in a page about fandoms disavowing parts of a story they dislike sounds like a serious case of Square Peg Round 'Trope'. I think I actually agree with Cider now - the page should be reworked or (preferably) cut.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:25:19 PM

Not seeing how it's SPR"T". It's about people ignoring parts of a story (in this case RL) they dislike - which is exactly revisionism.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#18: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:26:58 PM

Real life is not actually a story and does not possess a fandom as such. I'd call that shoehorning.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#19: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:28:51 PM

We have plenty of RL sections on the wiki. By that argument every one of them would be shoehorning. Make sure you are using arguments about the right thing.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#20: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:32:26 PM

I don't see how "...does not possess a fandom as such" is the wrong argument. People seriously need to stop distorting tropes just so they can make real life sections for them.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#21: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:35:02 PM

Among others, because an Audience Reaction requires an audience which is not a synonym to "fandom". I expect this "trope" to occur with hatedoms as well.

Also, this is starting to look like a TRS topic.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#22: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:35:36 PM

There are your spark notes. Now do you get it?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#23: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:40:03 PM

[up][up]Real life doesn't have an audience.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#24: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:41:06 PM

Uh, yes. The important bits are there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#25: Mar 2nd 2013 at 2:47:44 PM

This is not a repair discussion really, just a request to move or delete a page. Though if repair what you want before moving it I would be prepared to do so. Some of them have links already, which are almost as good as citations here.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

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