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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#626: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:51:10 PM

From my final paper:

Prostitutes working in legal brothels have also reported that customers are far less violent toward them than their peers working on the streets. Furthermore, clients were far more likely to perform sexual acts for the enjoyment of the prostitute herself (Rodgers 4), and prostitutes had far more incentive to treat their customers as close friends or lovers, even if that motivation was only for business gain (Rodgers 4; Brents & Hausbeck 279).

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#627: Dec 13th 2013 at 1:10:50 PM

This should make perfect sense. Think of the issues of the GIFT. The fact that anonymity brings out the worst of people. Men that want prostitutes for their services while prostitution itself is illegal are pretty much like the news commenters in an unmoderated comment section. They can get away with anything and they can't get called up about it. So they treat the "whore" they're working with like trash. Legal prostitution is like a well moderated chat. When there's people who can report you and people that can punish you you're going to act less like a troll. If you act like a violent rapist to the woman there's a chance she'll report you to the cops for assault or rape.

edited 13th Dec '13 1:11:26 PM by RhymeBeat

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
imca (Veteran)
#628: Dec 13th 2013 at 1:20:23 PM

That Idea seems to be an amercian concept, that purchace of a service means you have to put up with shitty customers.

I have had many times working IT, where I showed unruly customers the door, and told them they were no longer welcome...

And beyond that, my boss suported me in all these case as long as I had a reason to say they were being an ass.

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#629: Dec 13th 2013 at 1:21:40 PM

I came across this on a friend's Facebook page. The article discusses marketing tactics disguised as feminist messages. It's fairly opinionated and not of a highly academic caliber, but the author makes a strong case for how businesses can and do use social movements to sell a product.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#630: Dec 13th 2013 at 1:30:28 PM

Welp. I have a new entry for the Real Women Have Curves page.

Thanks, Aprilla.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#632: Dec 14th 2013 at 7:50:04 PM

I fear this is just commercial interests capitalizing on the latest social justice movement, similar to how products magically became "green" and "organic" in light of the recent environmental awareness programs. I'm not going to say this is in itself a "bad thing" because business owners have to be aware of the social trends in order to maintain profits. However, I do feel like commercial business owners have the responsibility to earn their money in a respectful and healthy way, and the examples above are just immature and misguided.

On another similar note: I am getting sick of the whole "love your body" movement. A person is under no obligation to love their body and just because they do not like their body doesn't mean that they are unhealthy.

Let me explain a bit:

I have had trouble loosing the depression weight I gained after the death of my father thanks to working a very strenuous night shift. I don't like how I look. I don't like how I can't preform athletically like I did last year. This does not mean I think little of myself or think I am a failure as a woman. It just means I have a goal, a precedence, and am doing what I can to get back on track with what resources I have. Yet I had a male friend who is currently studying feminism and healthy sexual expression go nuts on me that I "need to love myself as I am regardless!"

I don't like the swing of extremes. First you have to be a barbie. Then you need to love your body regardless. No. I don't think that is what women and girls need to hear. And as well intentioned as my male friend was and I think he is trying to be a good ally, he doesn't have to wake up in my skin and deal with my issues. So while he can have opinions, I get the final word. (Just like how I may have opinions and be a helpful ally to my black friends, but I need to respect the bounds of sympathy and trust their judgement on what the final say is.)

I like the feminism that says, "You have the right to change your circumstances to make you happy." You wanna be in the kitchen? Great! You wanna be technically overweight? Fine as long as you keep your cholesterol down. You don't want to go to school? That's cool too.

But a woman who wants to change their body should be given the same respect and encouragement as the one who wants to get their small engine repair apprenticeship or the one who wants to teach their kids sign language from birth, etc. This attitude can help men as well.

TLDR: Self improvement desired for healthy and educated reasons should be encouraged as a part of feminism, not damned because it may make some demographics uncomfortable. Swinging from one pole to another only leaves people hanging.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#633: Dec 14th 2013 at 8:00:38 PM

I would like a form of feminism that advances the right for women to have bodies as "invisible" as men's are. A woman's body is not public property, a woman's appearance is not public property, etc., you should give her respect no matter what. In the public sphere you do not have a body, you are a person, the end.

If women still want to lose weight, when it would not affect anybody's perceptions of them at all, you know what, go have fun. I mean I have a zillion reasons why you should not diet but they don't really have much to do with women's issues and therefore don't have much to do with this thread.

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#634: Dec 14th 2013 at 8:06:58 PM

Huh?

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#635: Dec 15th 2013 at 3:53:34 AM

[up]I agree with the "huh", there, Polar.

Especially as eating disorders, steroid abuse, cosmetic use and cosmetic surgery among men of all demographics are all on the rise. <_< Men's body shapes are not currently "invisible". To women or other men.

The associated baggage is steadily catching up. -_-

edited 15th Dec '13 3:54:28 AM by Euodiachloris

PippingFool Eclipse the Moon from A Floridian Prison Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Eclipse the Moon
#636: Dec 15th 2013 at 5:36:45 AM

I think it's more in the leeway that it is considered somewhat socially acceptable for a man to be unconventionally attractive and successful. As well as not having the fears that they won't be seen as achieving/not achieving their success based upon their looks.

Not so much with women. Women, to be successful in society, almost MUST look inoffensively pretty and attractive to be considered successful. And often women are judged by their success in the workplace upon their looks rather than their integrity.

While male image issues are on the rise and are getting attention. They seem to be a slightly different kettle of fish from the image problems placed on women.

I'm having to learn to pay the price
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#637: Dec 15th 2013 at 7:24:51 AM

I know, I think it's wrong for men's body issues to be on the rise as well, we need to stop that. I think society is moving in the wrong direction on this issue.

edited 15th Dec '13 7:41:13 AM by ohsointocats

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#638: Dec 15th 2013 at 7:57:35 AM

It's equality, Jim, but not as we want it.

I wonder, will it be easier to change societal attitude towards body issues when men are faced with similar problems as women, since all are in the same boat. Or will it actually be harder because "hey, we all have to deal with it?"

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#639: Dec 15th 2013 at 8:01:16 AM

I don't know, it's not like it's easy to change a problem faced by many, many human beings. I guess while I think the "love your body" thing is a step in the right direction but it's still not quite right. "Love your body" should be more "love your body because it does all this cool stuff and keeps you from dying, and stuff that keeps you from dying deserves a little credit" than what it seems to be now.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#640: Dec 15th 2013 at 8:12:08 AM

The problem with societal issues is that they're not easy to change, because the same societal issues constantly reinforce themselves. A lot of people make money off these issues. Some businesses have these issues at the heart of their entire business model, and that means a lot of money pumped into advertising meant to encourage these issues. That advertising reaches the public, which reinforces the cultural standard, and also reaches children, helping them to grow up tolerating and accepting these issues as a key facet of what it means to be an adult. Those children become adults and enter into the adult world with these issues as a standard, build their own societal and economic lives around them, and begin reinforcing them in others.

Changing society is a lot of hard work and effort, especially when someone's bottom line doesn't agree with you. It can be done, but an important part of getting it done is recognizing that there is no Keystone upon which the entire process turns; it has to be challenged at every step of the process if anything is to get better.

edited 15th Dec '13 8:12:54 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#641: Dec 15th 2013 at 7:42:28 PM

Saying a woman (or man, but this is the women's issues thread so I will focus on that) should have to love her body regardless of her personal opinion I think is just as damaging as saying she has to adhere to a certain standard of beauty.

It's kind of like the push against "real women have curves" bullshit.

I am not any less of a woman now at a slightly heavier weight than I was a year ago. I think I would know.

But then again, that is a good tactic for delaying or sabotaging social progress: divide so you can conquer. If women are attacking each other and basing their self worth over demeaning their sister, then they can't work together against more pressing and serious issues like reproductive rights or wage inequality.

That sounded a little more conspiracy theorist than I wanted it to. But I think you guys get me. I'm a very tired polar bear...

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#642: Dec 16th 2013 at 12:27:05 PM

Saying a woman (or man, but this is the women's issues thread so I will focus on that) should have to love her body regardless of her personal opinion I think is just as damaging as saying she has to adhere to a certain standard of beauty.

It's kind of like the push against "real women have curves" bullshit.

This brings me to something that's been bugging me.

I'd like to know what the various intelligent ladies here have to say about this. What should be our goal regarding body image? I agree with both the idea that an ideal body image and a nonchalant body image are both damaging—but what stance should we take on the issue, then?

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#643: Dec 16th 2013 at 12:33:45 PM

I don't understand what a "nonchalant" body image means. I just want to stop beating myself up about, and people stop judging me for, being ugly.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#644: Dec 16th 2013 at 12:43:59 PM

I'm assuming suicidally unhealthy.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#645: Dec 16th 2013 at 1:07:48 PM

I talk about a ladyfriend of mine a bit on these forums. As body type goes, she's short, stocky, and built like a brick house. She has strong muscles, a societally unfeminine appearance, hates underwear and only wears it on rare occasions, and is covered in scars from fights she gets into. When I first met her, she struck me as the absolute last person I would ever expect to have body image problems, because she's just so unconventional as it is.

She gained a lot of weight when she was with a now-ex-boyfriend who led a very sedentary lifestyle and dragged her down into it. I was stunned when the body image comments started coming out of her. "I'm fat." "I'm ugly." "I look like a lazy slob."

For a long time, I thought it was just a thing that affects girls who are really trying for that Supermodel Pretty look. Before I met her, I never realized how pervasive this image of the Perfect Woman is. Her self-esteem improved when she got back into shape, but to this day, if I try to tell her that she looks good, she rolls her eyes and tells me my opinion doesn't count because I'm biased.

edited 16th Dec '13 1:10:38 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#646: Dec 16th 2013 at 1:38:44 PM

There is the constant question of "would people have liked me if I was prettier? Would I be more successful if I was prettier? Would people treat me better if I was prettier? Would people respect me more if I was prettier?" Because beauty is still considered women's #1 utility and it's not really something you can change much.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#647: Dec 16th 2013 at 2:46:43 PM

Body Image should be based on the individual's desires. Too many people are looking consciously or unconsciously for outside validation. I think we need to push that self esteem should be just that: self.

As a girl I thought I was unattractive because no one asked me out. Turns out it wasn't that I was ugly, it was because I wouldn't have sex so the guys didn't try. I started modeling for the money. And that's when I was told I have a very interesting look. Some people think I'm boring. Some people think I'm hot. So what?

Modeling and internet fetish groups have taught me well that their is an audience for every body type. You just have to figure out what you want and go for it. Attention will follow.

Your image should be based on your performance goals. You want to be a corporate executive so as you work up the ladder you chose to dress in a very professional and respectable fashion to add to your overall reputation as a competent and serious contender.

My personal goal, I want to get back to lifting the weights I did and making it through my Insanity workouts with a higher cardio endurance. I can measure my body fat content, my chest, arm, and quad lengths, as well as dietary content in order to make the adjustments needed to meet my fitness performance marks.

I do think women are pressured. However I think most of that pressure isn't from the media but their peers. Women are also more likely to be victims of abuse which can further damage their ability to make clear judgments on their image.

I rather see more of a self awareness and support system building than this whole: love yourself unconditionally or real women have curves.

I care about how a girl is coping with depression, her cholesterol levels, her risk of calcium deficiency or anemia, etc. than what her measurements are. Fit and healthy comes in a variety of shapes and sizes that can only be properly evaluated as successful or not based on that individual and their needs. Not her dress size or makeup.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#648: Dec 16th 2013 at 6:32:36 PM

I would like to see a bigger discussion into women's mental and emotional health. It could do wonders in not just improving feminine body issues and self perception, but other issues as well.

Women are still primary care givers and dominate parents. Basically, if we can raise healthier women we can in turn raise a healthier generation following them.

I love happy domino crashes. grin

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#650: Dec 20th 2013 at 1:55:45 PM

That's not a men's rights group, it's Reddit and 4chan.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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