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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#601: Dec 13th 2013 at 10:59:17 AM

I would assume it's gender neutral. Women that seek prostitutes would probably do so for the same reasons, but there is different cultural baggage there.

But you are right—this is yet another example of how getting rid of sexism across the board will invariably make things better for everyone.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#602: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:01:22 AM

Decriminalize the sale of sex, criminalize the purchase of it.

Imca (Veteran)
#603: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:06:49 AM

Doesn't that effectively cause similar issues? If a thing is illegal it is inherently going to be more dangerous, and prostitution is not something that law will stop.

Its better to legalize and control it in safe ways.

Besides, I still fail to see the problem with getting payed, or paying for sex.... How is it really that different from a one-night stand, should we criminalize those too?

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#604: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:08:12 AM

@Tobias Drake

I know. Especially apparent in slang words. Pussy, (cock-)sucker growing a pair etc. all imply that being a woman or doing "what women do" is inherently bad. If the same was done with skin color or other physical traits people would be ostracized. Not so with misogynistic slang. It's especially bad in English slang compared to German slang.

edited 13th Dec '13 11:19:58 AM by Antiteilchen

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#605: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:17:34 AM

In a one-night stand, presumably, both parties benefit equally.

Imca (Veteran)
#606: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:19:53 AM

And they dont otherwise?

As I said, as long as there is no third party involved, wouldn't be up to me if I did not feel I was benefiting equally with the monetary compensation to just say no?

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#607: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:21:47 AM

Decriminalize the sale of sex, criminalize the purchase of it.

That's what's called "Abolition" in the policy debate.

  • Decriminalization: Removes the culpability of the act altogether and lets prostitutes regulate themselves.
  • Legalization: Does the first part of the above, but the state regulates it.
  • Abolition: Criminalizes the customer, but not the prostitute.

All of these are better than Criminalization, and Abolition still allows the stitgmatizations to persist.

edited 13th Dec '13 11:21:54 AM by KingZeal

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#608: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:29:27 AM

Whenever there is money involved, the exchange is no longer equal. We can tolerate these inequalities somewhat but I think at this point, when it comes to sex, humanity is not yet ready.

So yes I think I would be an abolitionist where prostitution is concerned.

Imca (Veteran)
#609: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:31:38 AM

It still is equal, because if it was not you would not be doing it, over say any other job in existence or even unemployment benefits.

The ability to bring in that amount of cash, in such a short amount of time is an immense power.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#610: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:33:53 AM

Please show me some immensely wealthy prostitutes, if they have so much power.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#611: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:35:59 AM

Well, there's one that I read about who works on Wall Street. If she wanted to, she could wreck the lives of a dozen or so billionaires, by her own admission.

Also, I should note that it was easier for madames and courtesans to obtain power because there wasn't a legal form of discrimination to prevent that from happening.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#612: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:40:16 AM

I don't know, I mean if you're making that much money, you should be able to invest and build it, retire early in South America somewhere, etc. I'm sure some courtesans have done it but it should definitely be a more regular thing.

Imca (Veteran)
#613: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:43:19 AM

Look to the Netherlands, this whole debate I have been talking to some one who lives there, they make hundreds of euros per session.

For some people, thats a days or a weeks pay, and you just made it in one session.

The legalization, and removal of a pimp allows alot more of the money to go dirrectly to the person.

edited 13th Dec '13 11:44:16 AM by Imca

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#614: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:44:28 AM

There aren't very many immensely wealthy independent contractors either. Not sure why the level of wealth matters.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#615: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:46:14 AM

Whenever there is money involved, the exchange is no longer equal.

Doesn't the exchange of a financal transaction need to happen between legally equal parties? Does, as soon as you exchange money both parties have to agree on at least the legal equality of the other side.

The thing is, that prostitution need not be much different from other transactions of money for a service. Yet we made it different.

edited 13th Dec '13 11:46:23 AM by Antiteilchen

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#616: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:56:49 AM

I don't know, I mean if you're making that much money, you should be able to invest and build it, retire early in South America somewhere, etc. I'm sure some courtesans have done it but it should definitely be a more regular thing.

Two things:

First, wealth =/= income.

Second, there are apparently other desirable things about the occupation besides money. For some prostitutes interviewed by Brents & Hausbeck during a study, they found that some of them thought it was a better and more honest sex life than an actual relationship. One of them even said that if she had a husband, she'd recommend him to a brothel, because he could get his rocks off safely and then come back home with a more positive attitude.

edited 13th Dec '13 11:57:54 AM by KingZeal

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#617: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:58:51 AM

A close friend of mine is a prostitute as a fall-back, while also looking for steady employment outside prostitution. She has medical circumstances that make it difficult for her to find a job, but while employment and income are sometimes hard to find for some people, bills are a constant. She does it just enough to make ends meet and keep her rent paid.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#618: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:59:05 AM

Legally equal, maybe. I would still not consider them to be equal parties.

The reason why we treat prostitution differently is because we treat sex as an inherently unequal act. I can't really approve of prostitution until it is culturally and socially an equal act, and I don't think that will happen in my lifetime.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#619: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:09:21 PM

But we can't come to the conclusion that sex is equal until prostitution is equal until sex is equal until prostitution is equal.

It's a circular problem. And one that can't wait for the other side to be fixed first. They both need to be fixed, simultaneously.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#620: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:31:44 PM

I don't know. With the exception of possibly for-hire subs, I would consider making any profession where the entire point for 70% of clients is viewing the professional as disposable illegal. While many people treat those in the service industry like shit, I have a problem where that becomes the whole point of it.

Hell I have a problem with treating people in the service industry like shit. A big problem. This should be culturally unacceptable in general.

edited 13th Dec '13 12:33:22 PM by ohsointocats

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#621: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:42:59 PM

I don't know. With the exception of possibly for-hire subs, I would consider making any profession where the entire point for 70% of clients is viewing the professional as disposable illegal. While many people treat those in the service industry like shit, I have a problem where that becomes the whole point of it.

Hell I have a problem with treating people in the service industry like shit. A big problem. This should be culturally unacceptable in general.

But here's the dilemma you face: punishing the parties involved doesn't facilitate your goal. In fact, if your problem is with the treatment of the worker, punishment makes it worse.

So we're left with a choice: do you hate the job so much that you punish those involved despite the fact that it makes life worse for them overall, or do you legitimize it so that, even if you don't agree with it, the people who choose to do it (or find themselves with little choice) don't suffer needlessly?

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#622: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:45:26 PM

Criminalize the abuse of people in the service industry and we will see how it goes.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#623: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:46:49 PM

Technically speaking, that's already criminal.

But, making prostitution itself criminal means that victims won't report it.

imca (Veteran)
#624: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:48:06 PM

The bad treatment COMES from the illegality, Apperntly countries where it is legal have next to no stigma, and good treatment as well.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#625: Dec 13th 2013 at 12:50:59 PM

That is why I do not support things as they are now but have an abolitionist view.

As I see it the problem is twofold. First there is the fact that sex is seen as an inherently unequal act. The other is that as soon as one party is paying the other, all expectations of courtesy are dropped from the client and foisted on the seller. These two things combine to make a very, very nasty combination,


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