TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Go To

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#17551: Dec 29th 2024 at 5:08:58 AM

[up]

but some audience members sadly call those works out as "unrealistic".
Of course they do, but frankly that does not matter. Some will always complain that is inevitable.

CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17552: Dec 29th 2024 at 5:56:33 AM

[up] Yeah. The same thing happens with positive portrayals of female friendships, you get misogynists claiming there's no way we'd treat each other that well, we're doomed to hate and backstab each other because biology/evopsych, yadda yadda.

Positive female friendships in works aimed at young people are a great way to combat the culture of girl-hate that gets drummed into us though. Healthy friendships between boys in fiction combat toxic masculinity. And we also need more portrayals of male-female friendships that defy the bizarre notion that we're too different to get along, as well as the idea that there'll always be romantic attraction involved, because that isn't the case.

I just like seeing healthy and respectful friendships in fiction. That said, having close friends shouldn't be portrayed as an obligation either, regardless of gender, because people have different social needs.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#17553: Dec 29th 2024 at 10:26:58 AM

And mainly, the woman's boyfriend/husband and/or the man's girlfriend/wife not getting jealous of their partner's opposite-sex friends. To give the viewers the message that it's okay for a man to have a female partner and female friends and vice-versa.

"Oh, did I win?"
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#17554: Dec 29th 2024 at 10:29:02 AM

[up] Yep. And narratives not automatically assuming they're secretly banging or dating.

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17555: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:17:21 AM

The unfortunate thing is when the higher up creatives or their most vocal audience members try to enforce it loudly, that entrenched IPs or developers don't want to change, because of the way art and economics intertwine.

Various plot points from Persona 3-5 are made according to interviews because of gendered perceptions from producers and directors. All girls have to be romanceable, because strong platonic friendships aren't a thing. A girl moving from the city to the countryside is not a realistic thing to do. The MC has to be a boy, because girls at high school age are too mature to be a lead protagonist.

And then you have various loud fandoms who cry loudly if a woman is outside the preconceived notions of femininity is, like the recent trailer reactions for Witcher 4 or Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet, or how various studios are doing superfan focus groups in order to placate the most toxic parts of the fanbase to avoid internet drama, or how various gacha games have will reduce or eliminate the number of male character releases, because their biggest whales only care about female characters.

It becomes hard to get variety, when there is cultural inertia and economic incentive to maintain the current course.

Edited by HeyMikey on Dec 29th 2024 at 11:19:23 AM

CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17556: Dec 29th 2024 at 11:49:57 AM

[up] And it becomes a vicious cycle. To be honest, this plus the franchise's problematic stance on LGBTQ+ people is why I no longer play the Persona games, despite their great premise. In Persona 4, even Naoto is romanceable, even though she and Kanji like each other.

Is there a way for creators to break this cycle, considering the economic incentive and toxic fandoms? Probably not unless fan work creators step up, but fan works and other not-for-profit creations rarely have the same impact and popularity as most media. Or unless companies take major risks, which means some will collapse due to poor sales.

Only other way is for audiences to vote with their wallets and avoid media with sexist tropes, but that means having to avoid the overwhelming majority of media, which isn't necessarily reasonable.

Edited by CalicoCaitSith on Dec 29th 2024 at 7:50:47 PM

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17557: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:00:25 PM

[up][up] I like how the complaints against Intergalactic's protagonist were all misogynistic to varying degrees of subtlty. Like her being "smug" (Translation: I'm fine with smugness when its a man being smug to a woman or a minority. Woman be quiet, submissive, and make me sandwich) or being bald (Translation: Men being bald is cool and tough. Woman in games should be supermodels with revealing clothes or her appearence deserves to be shamed). The 2024 Game Awards chat was some of the most shamelessly reactionary displays of misogyny I've seen in quite some time.

Once Upon A Time.
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#17558: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:06:38 PM

Gaming is just exceptionally right-wing and reactionary to a comical degree in the modern age, and you have GG to blame.

Well, you also have a lot of other longstanding social values before then, but that certainly radicalized them to an exceptional degree.

Edited by erazor0707 on Dec 29th 2024 at 2:07:27 PM

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17559: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:10:18 PM

[up] I noticed. I sometimes feel just a twinge of shame towards myself for being a gamer each time I remember that tidbit.

Once Upon A Time.
CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17560: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:12:31 PM

The gaming community is absolutely rife with misogyny and toxic masculinity. I'm very often ashamed to be a gamer too, and conflicted about being an aspiring game dev.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17561: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:12:35 PM

Really, the way to break the cycle is to either have people who are progressive or at least willing to give progressive media a chance rise through corporate ranks, such that they are willing to do something different on high, or have large and undeniable economic successes that pushes in the opposite direction. Someone on high can guide projects towards a certain direction, if they want to or at least allow different creatives more leeway to do what they want. And if a lot of works make economic success that challenges current cultural thought, companies will follow no matter what the loud part of their fanbase says, because money is money.

Other than that, there's always the indie scene. The great thing about the indie scene allows for a wider breadth of media types, because it allows for passion to more easily flow, even if it's less likely to be economically substantial.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#17562: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:16:04 PM

[up] I noticed. I sometimes feel just a twinge of shame towards myself for being a gamer each time I remember that tidbit.

I feel you. I love video gaming, but from communities to corporations that make them, it's so hostile to anyone marginally different from convention.

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17563: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:26:15 PM

Keep in mind that this is an observation not a criticism. I have recently been playing Mario and Luigi Brothership and that game, when you think about it, doesn't treat its female characters that well. The one male companion is the one that accompanies you on the front line while the female cast largely serves in more tradionally feminine support roles such as inventing stuff. Oh and they played Abhorrent Admirer (one of the least funny comedy tropes) straight with one late game female character. Peach's most important moment is her offering herself to be voluntarily kidnapped and saved by the Bros. Starlow is way less mean and more pleasant than she was in past games on top of not doing much. And one female character's major role is to be possessed by the male main villain. None of this is unique to this game, and I doubt it was intentional, but it just shows how pervasive misogyny is in art if you know where to look.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Dec 29th 2024 at 3:31:17 PM

Once Upon A Time.
CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17564: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:31:11 PM

At risk of sounding like a hipster, this is why I generally prefer indie games. It's great that Celeste, which has a transgender female protagonist and explores mental health, is popular.

The problem with rising through the ranks of major companies, though, is that these progressives would start out having to obey demands from higher-ups and cater to incel crowds. If they refused, they'd remain stuck in less powerful ranks at best, or get fired at worst. And if these people happened to be female or part of any other underprivileged group themselves, they'd have an even tougher time of it, because the gaming industry is still extremely male-dominated and hostile towards minorities.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17565: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:36:17 PM

It literally took until I was in my teen years to comprehend the idea that women played video games. And not just a fringe minority, but like half of gamers are female. Then you have right wing reactionaries purposefully misrepresent feminist points that take a lot of thought and understanding to really "get" on a nuanced level in order to remove all validity to said claims. The sad thing is that a lot of radicalized male gamers are social outcasts who were preyed upon by reactionaries at a vulnerable time. I would know, I almost fell down that rabbit hole completely before eventually waking up.

Once Upon A Time.
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17566: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:36:34 PM

At least there are parts of the community that fight back. Like how PAX in order to be more inclusive had a very strong anti-harassment campaign for all attendants within their conventions and ended the practice of booth babes within their demo areas. Cultural change can come from on high, if they are willing. Because people enjoy gaming and even the worst are at least willing to behave themselves temporarily in order to get in on all the good stuff. I would bet that if all these studios stopped catering to the loud toxic parts of the fandom, they'll start behaving themselves as well, because they too want to engage in the zeitgeist media.

On the topic of women portrayals and alt-right/misogynistic reaction, I find it amusing how they can't even be consistent within their own rhetoric. Shaved heads are bad, but will champion Ellen Ripley who shaved her head in the Alien franchise. Or how various adult facial features like pronounced cheekbones or strong jawline are man face, but say nothing about actresses like Angelina Jolie or Keira Knightly who have such features are worldwide famous actresses known for their beauty when they have such features. They becomes so used to their preferences being catered to solely, that there is a backlash when others are being catered to. It's not even that they're not being served, it's that they are given less of the lion's share of attention that they're used to. It's the racist getting mad at having to press one for English. It's the Dursley meme of getting 1 less present than they had last year (36? But last year I had 37!) They considered gaming to be their media only, rather than a widespread spectrum that can serve multiple communities, and can't get it through their minds to just not enjoy a piece of media that doesn't cater solely to them and move on, especially when they already have plenty to choose from as is.

Edited by HeyMikey on Dec 29th 2024 at 12:39:02 PM

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#17567: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:36:57 PM

the alternative would be government regulation, but that has its own hurdles (especially with the First Amendment and similar laws of the land) and could risk worse effects.

Pushback at the grassroots level can help, but it would be very specialized to a specific symptom. However if there are enough such protests...

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17568: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:39:05 PM

[up][up] They're ok with Aliens because Aliens came out before they were born, was already established in pop culture, and therefore it wasn't "woke" because things in the past weren't "woke" (the term wokeness has existed in some form since the 1800s). Past good, new bad. I saw a good video by Piller of Garbage on the whole "Wokespotting" phenomenon and its inherent inconsistencies among many other problems. Namely the need to pander to the grift, meaning their opinion has to be based on the popular opinion among their audiences. Leading to some truly embarrissing backpeddling when, say, the anti-woke mob starts championing something they previously condemned as woke.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Dec 29th 2024 at 3:45:07 PM

Once Upon A Time.
CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17569: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:46:17 PM

Oh it'd absolutely be nice to see more variety in female character design. Traits like muscles, scars, tattoos, sharp features, baldness etc are considered ruggedly attractive on men, but unacceptable on women for some reason.

It'd also be great to see more variety in male character design. Men with "soft" features, who aren't mocked or portrayed as weak for them. Thinking about it, this is one reason why I like the Legend of Zelda games, it's refreshing that Link is a short and dainty-looking guy, and an absolute badass.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17570: Dec 29th 2024 at 12:49:50 PM

Bad Take: Ignore this.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Dec 29th 2024 at 4:08:47 AM

Once Upon A Time.
CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17571: Dec 29th 2024 at 1:03:44 PM

[up] Even though men with those traits are often designed as visually appealing, and are popular with women in-game.

Yeah, attractiveness is far from the most important thing in a woman, but treating female characters as ugly for having traits that aren't conventionally feminine is just tasteless.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#17572: Dec 29th 2024 at 1:04:14 PM

[up][up] Any examples besides Concord?

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Dec 29th 2024 at 1:04:27 AM

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17573: Dec 29th 2024 at 1:08:30 PM

[up] Fair enough.

Once Upon A Time.
shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#17574: Dec 29th 2024 at 3:02:07 PM

[up] The problem with video games is that women are perceived as not the main demographic when there are tons of studies about women in gaming. And that not going into the professional gaming and streaming scene, which has its own toxicity to the point that prominent female pro gamers had faced numerous sexism controversies

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#17575: Dec 29th 2024 at 3:18:09 PM

[up] Half of all gamers are female (a surprising feat for half of the world's population) yet games are marketed and portrayed as if they're a boys club. Nintendo games with Unisex marketing (nowadays) like Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Pokémon, and Super Mario Bros. sell such crazy units for a reason.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Dec 29th 2024 at 6:18:42 AM

Once Upon A Time.

Total posts: 17,807
Top