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Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#17526: Dec 11th 2024 at 9:57:47 AM

It does? How? This is the first I've heard of such a criticism.

Bare in mind that [up][up] like what the troper here says, it's not inherently bad, but in the contexts I've heard it used in relation to Blizzard, or Doug Walker writing.

Also certain comic book writers.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#17527: Dec 11th 2024 at 10:31:27 AM

Keep in mind too there are legitimate criticisms of women being too mannish, like in context of Real Women Don't Wear Dresses where femininity is openly scorned as being inferior to being masculine. I'll admit that having grown up in the nineties I definitely had times in my childhood where I was ashamed of liking feminine things because I was afraid I'd seem weak and pathetic for it. The problem is like everything to do with the same bad-faith actors, they've taken a legitimate criticism and turned it into "woman not sexy FOR ME, character bad".

Edited by PhiSat on Dec 11th 2024 at 10:31:47 AM

Oissu!
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17528: Dec 11th 2024 at 11:02:44 AM

Real Women Don't Wear Dresses is bad and, frankly, sexist. The opposite, that Real Women Wear Dresses, is also sexist.

A women being written like a man (as long as it's not a cis woman being written as doing things biologically that only men can do, of course) can be a great way of writing a good female character. If you're good at writing complex, likeable, interesting, good masculine characters, then an easy way to get a good female character is to write her like the male, masculine characters. There's nothing wrong with a masculine female characters and it's good to have representation of those sorts of characters.

On the other hand, some people overcorrect and instead of thinking 'Women don't have to be feminine, they should also be allowed to be masculine or anything in between', they think 'Femininity bad, everyone should be more masculine'. This is also bad. To paraphrase Natalie Portman, every version of a woman and a man should exist in fiction. So masculine women, feminine men, masculine me, feminine women, and everything in between. One 'type' is not inherently better than the other.

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17529: Dec 11th 2024 at 11:50:28 AM

There is also the issue where certain critiques imply that a character must be gender presenting all the time, otherwise it would be denigrating the gendered characteristics, rather than it be contextual.

For instance, the picture in Real Women Don't Wear Dresses, has a character that is a police officer and another is a regular civilian, thus why one is wearing a uniform and the other is wearing a dress. It makes sense that a character whose occupation is a police officer, would wear a practical uniform that would be at least gender neutral in terms of presentation, not wearing a skirt in high heels. She's also in a profession that is normally coded are supposed to be action oriented characters, compared to civilians. So it feels a bit presumptuous to use that as a denigration of feminine traits, when for all we know, the character enjoys going dancing in her off hours.

Thus my qualms with fighting in high heels being a feminine signifier in a more grounded series. Fighting in flats is not a denigration of femininity, it's a statement of practicality and compartmentalizing when we decide to present differently. Or as an analogy, men wearing a tuxedo is considered a masculine presenting trait. But we don't praise a work being a celebration of masculinity or say a character is denigrating being masculine if the character doesn't wear a tuxedo at the beach. But if this was meant to be fantastical or outrageous in nature, that lends itself to more leeway for suspension of disbelief.

Edited by HeyMikey on Dec 11th 2024 at 11:57:14 AM

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17530: Dec 15th 2024 at 11:22:39 PM

There was another example that came to my attention regarding the cultural markers of gender identity, expression, and perception that has an effect on the writing and presentation of characters. In this article from GameRant, Producer Kazuhisa Wada explains why the Persona games main characters are primarily young male students.

At the CEDEC + KYUSHU 2024 conference, Wada states that he primarily makes stories about high school, because he primarily likes to create stories themed around coming-of-age and growing up, so having a character who is in high school makes natural sense in terms of choosing a setting to fit its themes. When asked why most of the characters were male, he stated that it's a gendered perception that there is a difference in maturity between girls and boys at that age, and girls were perceived as more mature than boys. When creating characters as the protagonist, he wanted to more room for character growth and development, thus he felt it was a natural fit to make the main characters male.

Assuming Kazuhisa Wada is speaking honestly about his reasoning, I fail to see why that should preclude making a female protagonists. If that sort of perception is true, there are creative ways around it. This is fiction after all, and characters can run the gambit. A female character can be immature, as there are immature girls in high school. The game could just be about a female character that is not at the perceived typical level of maturity. Or if age is a factor, you can shift the age framing a bit. Rather than being a coming of age story set in high school, set it to pre-adolescence, where a girl is coming into their own age. Girls must also mature, they are not of adult mind when they are born, so they too must have their own coming of age, whenever the author perceives that to be. Lastly, a story can be formed where the most mature character is the protagonist. There are stories relating to conflicts, where someone mature must shepherd their companions through difficulties, and the weight of responsibility that occurs because they're the lead. Coming to terms with bearing that responsibility is also a coming-of-age story.

Personally, I don't believe the reasoning is valid. For one, the Persona MC is rarely the least mature character in the bunch to form an arc around. The Persona MC is usually a blank slate self-insert compared to the side cast and plenty of the characters displayed immaturity worse than the MC. And from the way they wrote side characters previously, including female characters, they understand how to make arcs for girl students to grow and mature, so they are able to create growing female characters. And if they're having issues writing female characters, that's usually the point in hiring different writers, who are capable of writing compelling women characters.

This also points to how sorting characteristics into feminine and masculine can be toxic to both genders when creating characters. This goes back to the whole assigning feminine and masculine characteristics and trying to enforce strict gender expression can be toxic depending on what characteristics are considered feminine or masculine, in this case maturity at a young age. It stereotypes men to have a negatively perceived characteristic, and it denigrates the femininity of girls who don't match that perception.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#17531: Dec 16th 2024 at 9:04:06 AM

It's another boomer take for Atlas, famous for boomer takes in regards to the Persona franchise.

Kinda tellin' on himself too since I talked to plenty girls in high school and... yeah, we were all hot messes... [lol]

Edited by erazor0707 on Dec 16th 2024 at 11:05:33 AM

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17532: Dec 16th 2024 at 9:37:24 AM

Reminds me of an interview where Atlus director, Katsura Hashino, jokingly stated that he made all the female social links romanceable (the conclusion to every maxed social link) in Persona 3. Whether he was being playfully serious or not, there is a cultural expectation that all attempts at relationships with opposite gender that aren't business or familial are romantic in nature and being platonic with the opposite sex is weird. He also stated that he never forged any close platonic relationships with girls in high school (or the rest of his life at the time of the interview) so he didn't have a frame of reference to understand what a close platonic relationship with the opposite gender would be like.

Though he did say in another part of the answer that as a company they should be hiring women and younger people to progress in order to keep with the times of how young people have different experiences now than they did when he was young, though how successful the company has been is up for question. Because you still get higher ups saying they think that girls wouldn't be a good character for "insert plot", because boys and girls are different (I think the creatives justified not having a female MC for Persona 4, because they didn't find a plot where a girl uproots and moves to the countryside to be credible).

Edited by HeyMikey on Dec 16th 2024 at 9:44:21 AM

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#17533: Dec 17th 2024 at 7:10:42 PM

I'm not sure what the solution is here. I know it's not that simple, but I really wish we could write better characters.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#17534: Dec 19th 2024 at 10:26:54 AM

The primary solution is writing better characters. The challenge becomes getting to that point since I would imagine the best way to write a character for some settings is to draw from life experiences and go from there, and if mixed with having a good variety of people working on a project, it would be a good start to that objective.

That is important, as well as not being afraid to tackle serious subjects while handling them tactfully and thoughtfully.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17535: Dec 19th 2024 at 11:08:15 AM

The simple solution is to hire different variety of people, people who either have different experiences to draw from, different ways of thinking that allows them understand a different frame of reference, or just people who are willing to do things differently and let time, collaboration, and refinement do its thing. If one can't write or perform in a certain manner, hiring people who have those capabilities and incorporating and adapting it to your process would be a way to solve it.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#17536: Dec 20th 2024 at 12:26:19 AM

I have been binging Tyrant of the Tower Defense Game and I have been impressed by the writing of the female and male characters especially for a Dark Fantasy -ish Action manhwa

  • Multiple female characters with clear names, motivations and characters arc. As a consequence, this pass the Bechdel test with flying colors, especially in later chapters.
  • Said female characters can be injured VISIBLY and can be killed off just like the male characters.
  • A disabled female character whose disability isn't fetishized nor portrayed as helpless angel.
  • An older female main character with VISIBLE wrinkle and whose age and story actually factor into the larger plot, theme and character arc
  • While it kind of slips into the trope of female characters mostly relegated to mages, archers and healers, there is some female close combat warrior and one of the main female characters is a knight.
  • The relationship and interaction between the female characters with each other and with the male characters, especially the male protagonist, is very varied, well throughout and well written for the genre (grandmother-granddaughter, commander / subordinate, rival knights etc.)
  • (Probably?) A hint of a crush between a male main character toward the male protagonist?
  • The protagonist is The Smart Guy Non-Action Guy, which is extremely rare for fantasy action genre.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the women in the series completely avert Beauty Is Never Tarnished. They are equally likely to suffer from horrific injuries and deaths just like the men and NOT play for sexy fanservice but for tragedy as a consequence of the monster battle.

Edited by shatterstar on Dec 20th 2024 at 1:18:00 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#17537: Dec 26th 2024 at 10:32:40 PM

I don't think we've discussed age-gap relationships here before. So I figure this is as good a time as ever in wake of these words from Halina Reijn, the director of Babygirl, a film in which a married technology company CEO played by Nicole Kidman has an affair with an intern played by Harris Dickinson.

In an interview with W Magazine published Wednesday, Dec. 25, Reijn was asked a question about Babygirl adding to a recent trend in movies featuring May-December romances, from Gabrielle Union’s The Perfect Find and Laura Dern’s Lonely Planet, to Anne Hathaway’s The Idea of You and Kidman’s other project, A Family Affair.

"If we see a movie where the male actor is the same age as the female actor, we find that odd. Which is insane," Reijn, 49, said. "It should completely be normalized that the age gaps switch and that women have different relationships."

"We’re not trapped in a box anymore," Reijn added. "We internalize the male gaze, we internalize patriarchy, and we need to free ourselves from it. It’s really hard."

Some have agreed that there is a Double Standard of such relationships being normalized in fiction where the man is older than the woman. Plus, the relationship is clearly meant to be salacious in-universe.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#17538: Dec 28th 2024 at 10:31:53 AM

[up] There is also a weird obsession with portraying the young women to be as close to a minor as possible. And in some cases even being minors in the case of Asian medias

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#17539: Dec 28th 2024 at 10:39:13 AM

Wait what?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#17540: Dec 28th 2024 at 11:00:08 AM

[up] Yes. The weird obsession with school age girls are baaaaaaad there.

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17541: Dec 28th 2024 at 11:18:39 AM

Not like here is much better with portions of our community setting up legal countdowns for young girl celebrities. Or child or teen pageantry.

Edited by HeyMikey on Dec 28th 2024 at 11:20:09 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#17542: Dec 28th 2024 at 12:09:43 PM

[up] x4 There is indeed a Double Standard. Like, once both parties are adults, it doesn't really matter. The younger adult is (hopefully) mature and capable of choice. But you get a lot more side-eyeing when it's an older woman with a younger man than the reverse.

Edited by erazor0707 on Dec 28th 2024 at 2:10:14 PM

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17543: Dec 28th 2024 at 1:00:03 PM

The way sexuality is viewed in men and women in American society in general is a lot of Double Standards. Women are considered sexually desirable if they're young and virginal and have portions of our culture liken to a non-virginal woman as used up items like gum or worn shoes. The same is not the same said of men, who are considered studs the more times they have sex, culturally speaking. You could write essays on the weird standards and views of men and women sexuality, like the metaphor of men beings keys and women being locks. How being sexually free is enjoyed for friends, but not for wives. How a girl statutory rape victim is considered sullied, but a boy rape victim is considered lucky. How often times male sexuality is viewed through the lens of what they enjoy looking at, but women sexuality is viewed through the lens of how they present. And on and on and on.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#17544: Dec 28th 2024 at 1:16:48 PM

I do think some people overcompensate when dealing with that Double Standard, and instead create the opposite standard. I definitely see a lot of people who treat older men with younger women as dirty old menand gold diggers, whilst the opposite is seen as slightly cheeky older women with kindly young men. Both Double Standard are wrong. Ultimately, I think in fiction it's good to show relationships between different genders with various combinations of ages for both men and women (as long as everyone's an adult) - so same age, small differences and large differences.

Marchen Too hot (Hot damn) from Somewhere Out in Space (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Too hot (Hot damn)
#17545: Dec 28th 2024 at 1:37:30 PM

[up] I've only heard of that particular... what's the word, stereotype? I've only heard of the dirty old man one before is what I'm saying, so I've gotta admit I was confused at the idea of it being considered normal in any other sense than "what's depicted most often".

Read Otr of the Flame (She/Her)
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#17546: Dec 28th 2024 at 3:20:25 PM

I wonder where the "stereotype" or "trope" came from. A lot of this stuff is older than we are, and it's something that feels problematic.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#17547: Dec 28th 2024 at 4:00:26 PM

A lot of it stems from a patriarchal view of sex and how creators either feed into or rebel against it. How standard works come to this type of circumstance comes greatly from this view of sex and the male gaze as it applies to media making.

Just to state generalities, men are often considered the default, in 3 ways, via the point character, via the camera/director/creator, and via the audience and that forms the basis of the male gaze as a concept. It's why a work with a man character is commonly considered for all audiences and a work with women characters is considered for women. As such, a lot of conservative minded creators/producers view that the default (men) audience would not want to look at an old woman as it doesn't fit in with the patriarchal view of sexually desirable. But men is more loose in depiction, depending again on what the feelings they're going for and which among the intended audience they want to cater to, so the male gaze allows a greater breadth of male depiction. Of course there are a lot of complexities going on, depending on various circumstances, culture, generation, and politics, but this a very simplistic expression of this trend.

CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17548: Dec 29th 2024 at 4:44:35 AM

This also points to how sorting characteristics into feminine and masculine can be toxic to both genders when creating characters. This goes back to the whole assigning feminine and masculine characteristics and trying to enforce strict gender expression can be toxic depending on what characteristics are considered feminine or masculine, in this case maturity at a young age. It stereotypes men to have a negatively perceived characteristic, and it denigrates the femininity of girls who don't match that perception.
Yes. Sadly, it breaks Willing Suspension of Disbelief for some audience members when characters don't display gendered behaviour. You get guys who read a book and say "I can tell a woman wrote this, because the male protagonist actually cares about his friends!" Even though consideration of others is something that needs to be encouraged in young men, and the "boys will be boys" mentality is dangerous.

It's a tricky issue because some people will swear by studies claiming significant innate gender differences. Which, yes, it's likely there are some differences on average (keywords being "some" and "on average"), but social conditioning exaggerates them, and pushes us into roles we may not want or be suited for. And that conditioning can very much affect our brains and endocrine systems, which is why these studies have different results depending when and where they take place.

Portraying guys as less mature than girls discourages men from taking responsibility for their actions, and dumps it on women instead (see Parenting the Husband). And normalising that in media aimed at teens conditions us into those behaviours from a young age. We need more female-centered coming of age stories.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#17549: Dec 29th 2024 at 4:56:50 AM

[up]

We need more female-centered coming of age stories.
Considering that your post talks about behaviour of men that seems like a strange conclusion. What about stories coming-of-age stories with boys that show that caring about their friends and becoming more mature. Or perhaps even better not have that gendered at all.

CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#17550: Dec 29th 2024 at 5:02:53 AM

[up] Yeah, we need both. We need works that break gender stereotypes in general (without creating new toxic norms a la Real Women Don't Wear Dresses), but some audience members sadly call those works out as "unrealistic".

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.

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