Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Any close friendship between a male and a female character will inevitably be interpreted as romantic by the fandom. And will almost certainly be canonized as such by the writer as soon as credits close, because that's how writers like to write romance. "Will They or Won't They" is the all-encompassing romantic trope that defines 99% of everything ever written about relationships, a fact that is super-obnoxious.

Simultaneously, any close friendship between two male or two female characters will inevitably be interpreted as romantic by certain parts of the fandom. And will almost certainly never be canonized as such by the writer at any point.

That's why Legend of Korra felt like such a game-changer for a lot of people. It actually wasn't that different from how a lot of works handle romance. It was "Will They or Won't They", Lesbian Edition. And it's every bit as obnoxious and cowardly as that trope always is for hetero couples. But LGBT Ship Teases generally don't get to land on "Will They", especially in children's animation, so it was received by the fandom as the height of LGBT representation all the same.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 16th 2019 at 10:32:47 AM

Well, it is. You know you've made it when you, too, are represented in the shoehorned romantic subplot that begs the eternal question: "Don't they have more important things to do right now? Like, the whole main plot of the work?"

The day the imposed love triangle is just as queer on all sides (but not simply for shock value and/or to live on the edge) and is only blatantly there because we ran out of ideas and need a triangle, dammit, thereby having absolutely nothing to do with representation, theme or the plot... jackpot!

Edited by Euodiachloris on Oct 16th 2019 at 5:47:01 PM

Aye, it's why I wanted to go the other way with some of my characters - one guy and two girls that you might think would be a classic love triangle, but their relationship goes in the Oath of the Peach Garden direction instead.

There is also another reason why Korrasami was unexpected.....well, the romance of the series suck ass, it really, REALLY suck huge amount of ass(and no in the good suckin ass way), because the writer subscribe to the sister trope of "would they or wont?" and that it "relationship equal drama" and by god it was a chore, people didnt expect any romance, Opal and Bolin didnt do any favor really.

In fact, tobias can call that coward but trope are not bad here: by showing the good bits rather than a relationship imploding by sheer drama it manage to be good representation, sometimes is the best thing you can do.

Also there is relationship writing fumble, to counter Tobias "of course they will be pair" I put as example chole and clark from smallville: they were so close and charming and they were never pair, as fan of the chose that was so painfully obvious it hurts.

Even with all of that though, just the fact that Korra and Asami were revealed as bisexual is a big deal. No kids show had had an openly queer protagonist before that. And the relationship was continued in the comics, which were pretty enjoyable.

I thought it was done tactfully enough in the show, but the comicbook continuation was a little hamfisted at times. It lacked the subtlety ATLA had when addressing more serious themes.

It wasn't good, I will never be convinced that it was good, but it's in some ways it's not like children's media has moved particularly past that. Aside from Steven Universe, for the most part we're still stuck on the Morton's Fork of major character being queer but not allowed to show more than the bare minimum or supporting characters who are allowed to be as explicitly romantic as they want multiple times but are less prominent.

Yeah, quite a lot of popular same-gender ships get popular for that reason and not because the characters hold a lot of chemistry together or even interact much. Unfortunately fandom tends to push the heteronormativity into hyperdrive by forcing the characters into stock mother and father roles along with the requisite battery of Uke and Seme stereotypes whether it fits or not.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 16th 2019 at 1:56:33 PM

Having two same-sex "close friends" adopt a child together is an old hat Ship Tease writing trick.

The example that comes to mind for me is Solid Snake and Otacon from Metal Gear Solid. Fans have been shipping them together since Metal Gear Solid 1, when Otacon was introduced. Pretty much from the moment Otacon asked Snake, "Do you think love can bloom on a battlefield?" Snake/Otacon has been a popular ship.

By the fourth game, they adopt a child. So, representation, right?

Well, no.

First, Otacon was talking about his crush on a third character when he asked that question. It's a plot point. Otacon has a big ol' hetero crush on Sniper Wolf, but Snake has to kill Sniper Wolf, which breaks Otacon's heart.

Second, they don't actually adopt a child. They rescue an unrelated third character's child, because Snake made a promise to save the kid.

Third, Otacon has a "NO HOMO" hookup with a separate unrelated third character in the same game that he and Snake start raising Sunny. Snake's "NO HOMO" romance from MGS 1, meanwhile, is pulled out of mothballs and made an important character again in the game as well. The franchise never really cared about Meryl until she was useful for downplaying the implications between Otacon and Snake.

Despite coding the relationship between Snake, Otacon, and Sunny as a domestic family, the game works very hard outside of those scenes to establish that NO HOMO NO HOMO NO HOMO. Metal Gear Solid 4 wanted the credit for its hints and suggestions about Snake and Otacon but wasn't willing to commit to establishing an actual canon LGBT relationship between the characters.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 16th 2019 at 12:50:09 PM

On the opposite end of that spectrum, you’ve got Nanoha and Fate from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. The possible male love interest gets phased out after season 2, and by the fourth season the two of them have a kid who calls them both her moms, and they sleep in the same bed, take showers together, etc.

Nanoha's case is definitely a different trope (though I don't know if we have an article for it) where they make the relationship as staggeringly blatant as possible with the tiny fig leaf of never actually doing anything explicitly, undeniably romantic (like kissing or saying "I love you") on screen. It's basically trying to have your cake and eat it too, appealing to both the yuri fandom who want to see lesbians and the hadcore otaku fandom who want their waifu to be both "pure" and romantically available.

Somewhat unrelated note but recently started playing Hakuoi Kyoto Winds which could be described as a visual novel. Is it normal for one of the romance options to be the guy that for the majority of his appearances is intent on kidnapping the main character and seemingly really only interested in her for her bloodline?

If the character's arc is about learning to actually love the protagonist, then yeah, that sounds pretty normal for those types of stories.

Every show has a tendency to draw that line somewhere; the line that serves to remind you that this is not "normal". And sometimes it can be super weird where they choose to draw it.

Stephen Universe is one of the most progressive cartoons in Western Animation so far as LGBT representation goes, but even it draws the line somewhere. It features multiple instances of F/F romantic attraction and relationships, but it uses single-gendered space aliens to justify same-sex attraction. The Gems are aesthetically female, but they're a species with no sexual dimorphism; same-sex relationships are literally the only option because there is no other sex. And for some people, that blunts the representation a bit.

It still is easily the best representation you'll find for LGBT romance in children's cartoons right now, especially since they don't do that "Will They or Won't They" nonsense. Two of the Gems, Ruby and Sapphire, are in a relationship before the series begins. They have a gay wedding onscreen, and it is explicitly a wedding, and each character gets like a solid minute to give a profound speech of love to their partner. It cannot be mistaken for anything other than a wedding.

A gay wedding.

Between mono-gendered space aliens who have no option but to be gay or ace, because their entire species is just designed that way. It's not same-sex, it's the only sex.

Stephen Universe draws its line so much farther to the left than the standard "Wants credit for representation but isn't actually willing to put it on the screen" series. But even Stephen does still draw the line. The show does feature a large cast of human characters. But for LGBT representation? That's reserved for the mono-gendered space aliens.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 16th 2019 at 8:24:58 AM

Pretty sure the name is Steven Universe, not Stephen Universe.

They've more or less given up on that after Vivid, iirc there were even official wedding photos in a Magazine published by the company that owns the franchise.

Loud House, also has several openly gay characters.

Edited by Rynnec on Oct 16th 2019 at 10:17:09 AM

"especially since they don't do that "Will They or Won't They" nonsense."

Not really, that is reserve for connie and steven who have something of a puppy love crush for all the series.

Also, something Alley said about pushing heteronormativity happen with LGTB fandom in quest for representation it that at times, they push for couple of chararter to be gay by basis of not falling into stereotypical heterosexual norm of relationships.

Take Elsa for example, while you can make the case of her being gay or ace(and let it go make a pretty good case, even as gay as you can), some people noted the problematic tendency that aside from that, Elsa is seen as gay by virtue of....no being shorehorn into a romantic plotline, as is the expectation is so great to happen that the idea isnt means she is clearly gay, being in short the old stereotype of "she dosent have a man? clearly a lesbian".

Granted, I cant blame shipper here that much, is just the state of having so little representation in general.

This brings to my mind an episode from one of my favorite animated series WITCH.

In the episode in question, one of the main characters, Irma, is dealing with her usual round of unwanted advances from her Abhorrent Admirer Martin Tubbs. Martin is tricked by resident school troublemaker Uriah into reciting a poem about Irma on the radio and declares to all the school that he and Irma are dating. This causes a frustrated Irma to snap and deliver a scathing "Reason You Suck" Speech to Martin unaware she is being broadcasted by Uriah (she'd turned the radio equipment off originally). The result of this is Martin's feelings being hurt and the entire school sans Irma's close friends all hating her for being a jerk. Irma's guilt over this affects her performance in battle and makes her vulnerable to the villains who can feed on negative emotions.

The next day, Irma publicly apologizes to Martin on the radio and he leaves a note in her locker that establishes he accepts her apology.

So basically we have a girl who has made it clear that she is not interested in a boy getting understandably frustrated and snapping at him when he takes it a step too far and the episode shames her for it while never taking the boy to task for his own entitled behavior.

Worse is that this episode was in the second season where Greg Weisman was the head writer. Weisman has stated he sees Irma as a lesbian which makes the whole business with Martin even more troubling because it basically shames a lesbian for rebuffing unwanted advances from a heterosexual boy.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 17th 2019 at 12:27:09 PM

My problem is...Uriah just sort of get away with it? because that is a hell of karma houdini.

Plus the average person probably won't have full context of the situation. A dorky confession over the radio tends to have a different effect on people than someone getting torn to shreds over the radio.

Though that is some powerful karma avoidance if the person that made the mess to begin with managed to get out out it clean.

Is more intentions here: the guy seen to genuelly pull is feeling while being torn to shread is kinda waaaay to hard.

Granted, usually fiction often take girl feeling for granted.

In pretty much every other episode, Uriah gets his comeuppance. I think his episode was the only time he didn't.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 17th 2019 at 9:13:45 AM

So let's talk about J.J.'and Henry Abrams' Spider-Man book.

A few months back, it was announced that Abrams and his son would be doing an out-of-continuity Spider-Man book. This drew accusations of nepotism from some fans as well as people just plain not thinking Abrams was a good writer.

Some of those fears haven't quite been calmed given that the first issue opens with M.J. being killed by a new villain named Cadaverous who also slices off Peter's arm. The traumatic effects of both these tragedies are also shown to have put a massive strain on Peter's relationship with his son Ben.

It's hard not to see this as a fun house mirror version of the Spider-Girl from the 90s to 2000s. In that series, Peter lost a leg instead of an arm, M.J. was alive and the focus was on his daughter though he also had a son in that continuity (but he was a baby). Needless to say the fridging of M.J. has not gone over well and many have found Ben to be an inferior character to Mayday from Spider-Girl, Anna from Renew Your Vows and even Miles Morales who is a teenage male Spider-Man. The book also features a female character named Faye Ito who has been criticized by some for being a shallow manic pixie girl dream. The most common defense I've seen for this book is that it's finally putting the focus on Peter having a son. I try not to imagine the worst of the people saying that.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 21st 2019 at 3:34:16 AM

Did.

Did J.J. Abrams somehow miss the years-long conversation about Women in Refrigerators?

Most people do miss them. In fairness, he's writing a out-of-continuity story with no validity in the main universe.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 21st 2019 at 10:01:44 AM

I think there was a creator that actually used that excuse recently but I can't remember who it was.

I should point out that the end of the first issue does seem to tease the idea of M.J. possibly being resurrected or cloned by the villain but I don't think that would quite mitigate the fact she was killed off for the development of her husband and son. It especially does not help that this series was marketed as a Peter and M.J. story not a "Peter and his son Ben" story.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 21st 2019 at 9:38:44 AM