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Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

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joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#301: Mar 21st 2013 at 6:43:40 AM

...

You just had to make it about race didn't you? =P

edited 21st Mar '13 7:29:01 AM by joeyjojo

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#302: Mar 21st 2013 at 2:02:08 PM

Uhhh yeah

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#303: Mar 22nd 2013 at 3:33:16 AM

Well, that's kind of the point.

The developers have said their desire was to make you feel "protective" of Lara. By coincidence or design, keep in mind that the image of the vulnerable caucasian "Everyman" is a pretty common trope in fiction right now.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#304: Mar 22nd 2013 at 4:30:29 AM

[up] Yeah, I saw what you mean. All it took was thinking what how they would have likely made her portrayal different if she was black, and that Missing White Woman Syndrome is a thing.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#305: Mar 22nd 2013 at 4:57:39 AM

"Is" she white? I always thought she was part latino...

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Jetyl The Dev Cat from my apartment Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The Dev Cat
#306: Apr 19th 2013 at 11:15:36 AM

I noticed something funny in another discussion, as well as something many other people on the internet have pointed out. in video games (as well arguably many other mediums of entertainment) male characters are allowed a wide range of body types, from strong, to fat, to short, to tall, the whole range. meanwhile women are basically stuck in a base mode of "attractive" 90% of the time, with maybe a fat chick thrown in for comedy. you know your standard objectification of women that games, comics, and other media just need to get over and soon. the thing I don't see however is much discussion of its inverse.

and no I don't mean Male Objectification, mostly because in terms of how gender roles work it doesn't exist, at least on the same way. (but on a side note though, I'm not a big comics fan but I have noticed super hero comics also have a limited range of male body types as well as female body types. again more variety than women but still rather limited. weird thing I've noticed.) but no the thing I'm talking about is the fact that women are aloud a much greater range of emotional and personality types compared to men, and when they are shared, they're not treated the same.

my mind wants to go to My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic for example, because the show is great showing of what you're allowed to get away with, with a nearly 100% female cast, and how it as a show would never get made otherwise. I mean just look at the main cast. the main 6 characters run the range from masculine to feminine, with Applejack and Rainbow Dash being most masculine, and Rarity and Fluttershy being the most feminine. the thing is, male characters aren't allowed to be rather feminine unless its funny, the same way women aren't allowed to fat unless its funny. because of it, I can't really think of a male character whose a drama queen, or painfully shy like Rarity and Fluttershy are, and aren't portrayed as funny or losers because of it.

I say my little pony is a great example of how much gender matters in media, because if you try to hypnotically Rule 63 the show, you'd notice all the things that just wouldn't happen if it was actually made. I already stated how I don't think Rarity's and Fluttershy's characters would be all that liked genderbent, or every portrayed the same, but I'll get to more on fluttershy in a bit. first, the fact that the shows main cast is entirely female save for Spike and Big Mac (the latter whose dialogue is mostly yup, and nope), meaning reversed these would be the only female characters in the show, which just wouldn't happen because even if a show is targeted towards a male demographic, it'll have at least one female character in the main cast to fill The Chick role, and possibly serve as hook for a female periphery demographic. It's funny because MLP got a huge male periphery demographic without a main male character (ok you could argue Spike fits that, but the Bronies showed up well before Spike became more important).you also have whole episode that I don't think would honestly be made if genderbent, like the sleep over episode, or an episode where Rarity gets capture, but escapes on her own through whining.

I said, something on fluttershy a bit earlier, and it has to do with the entity called Flutterguy. you see, after an episode where fluttershy got a deep black man's voice, the brony fandom created flutterguy, an super masculine male fluttershy. my problem with it, beyond me just finding it creepy, is the fact that it would A) not be what male fluttershy would be like, he'd just be fluttershy as a guy, no super muscles or 5 O'clock shadow or anything, and B) the fact I feel more people would be more comfortable with Flutterguy as the male fluttershy, as opposed to what he'd be. I feel it has to do with the whole Real Men Wear Pink trope, having him be physically an uber man to offset the very feminine personality of fluttershy.

while I've probably angered somebody with my rambling, and I'm running out of steam so I'll stop here. I guess I'll just say, I don't mean to insult the show, I didn't really intend to talk about it this much, its just an interesting venue of discussion I don't see anyone taking.

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#307: Apr 19th 2013 at 11:25:02 AM

[up] Having watched the show, I'll agree with you on most of that. A male character with Rarity's exact personality would have to be Camp Gay to even get on the screen, there's no way Hollywood would accept a straight man being an image-obsessed fashion designer. There's more than one fanfic to have done the whole genderswap thing, some of them fairly well.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#308: Apr 19th 2013 at 11:28:18 AM

It's a bit late, but having just completed the 2013 Tomb Raider it's not like Lara is scared and vulnerable all the way through. Once she has enough weaponry, she's a veritable One Woman Army who regularly shouts things like "That's right, you bastards, run!"

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#309: Apr 19th 2013 at 1:16:57 PM

Yeah, but it's still disconnected from the way the game makes stuff happen to her, rather than her doing things. Yahtzee actually echoed my thoughts on the matter perfectly.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#310: Apr 19th 2013 at 3:17:48 PM

A male character with Rarity's exact personality would have to be Camp Gay to even get on the screen, there's no way Hollywood would accept a straight man being an image-obsessed fashion designer.
It would on a children's show.

edited 19th Apr '13 3:18:05 PM by joeyjojo

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#311: Apr 19th 2013 at 6:28:19 PM

Chuck Norris wishes he was Flutterguy. tongue

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Jetyl The Dev Cat from my apartment Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The Dev Cat
#312: Apr 22nd 2013 at 12:39:28 PM

[up][up] and there's the paradox into why it would never happen. there's no way they'd have a male Rarity in a show without him being (or insinuated as) Gay. but at the same time they'd never have a gay character on kids show. so a male Rarity just wouldn't happen, and that's the problem.

There's more than one fanfic to have done the whole genderswap thing, some of them fairly well

that's the plus for fanfics, for good or for ill, there is next to no restrictions on what the author can do. they can portray things however they want. a luxury mainstream entertainment can't have apparently.

edited 22nd Apr '13 12:40:52 PM by Jetyl

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#313: Apr 22nd 2013 at 1:03:00 PM

I disagree, a fashion obsessed male charcter could happen on children's tv. The suits would just insistent they made him a Camp Straight.

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Jetyl The Dev Cat from my apartment Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The Dev Cat
#314: Apr 22nd 2013 at 10:15:20 PM

[up] well I've yet to see one that's for sure. and I mean one portrayed positively, you know, as an actual character and not some antagonist or foil.

same thing for a shy boy whose shyness isn't portrayed as something that must be overcome or fixed

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#315: Apr 23rd 2013 at 4:44:56 AM

It has little to no chance of happening in a K-9 work. The vast majority of parents, and thus producers, are not interested in teaching their boys that feminization is acceptable behavior for a boy.

It's possible in a 12-16 work, but only with a recurring guest character or a very special episode. There is little to no chance of seeing a protagonist with those characteristics that isn't a comic relief or foil of some sort.

edited 23rd Apr '13 4:45:54 AM by KingZeal

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#316: Apr 23rd 2013 at 5:27:56 AM

[up][up]I'll given you that. While there are fashion focused or shy male characters in children's tv there are almost all ways depicted as negative traits. Not with out good reason mind you.

edited 23rd Apr '13 5:28:47 AM by joeyjojo

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Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#317: Apr 23rd 2013 at 7:32:34 AM

[up]And what is this good reason?

What's precedent ever done for us?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#318: Apr 23rd 2013 at 8:47:58 AM

I'm actually really surprised to hear joey of all people insulting traditional gender roles in favour of modern neologisms. It's very strange. I mean embracing the thirty year old idea of men not liking fashion which is really confined almost entirely to lower and middle class Americans over the traditional gender role of a man who is interested in fashion being virile, successful, straight, and wanting to attract women is very odd. I thought he liked traditional gender roles.

Just look at anything made before the late 70's early 80's. The male characters who spent the most time worrying about their appearance were the ones that were the most likely to attract women and get better jobs. That's still true in real life. The male characters who hate fashion are the Unlucky Every Man loser slackers.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#319: Apr 23rd 2013 at 9:44:01 AM

I blame it on "gay" becoming a thing and the sudden obsession with guys not being that thing.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#320: Apr 23rd 2013 at 9:49:58 AM

I am more inclined to believe Shima's Pawn.

I don't own a TV so I haven't seen many shows. But thanks to TV I am bombarded with their memes and images.

Take How I Met Your Mother. Barney, the womanizing badass cool guy is the overall consistently best dressed. Now while they don't make a big deal about his attire as far as I know, the suave playboy in the suit against the common, nice but average looking married guy sends unspoken messages.

With my experience in modeling and my art degree, I can dress someone up to give a certain idea over their personality. I had a classmate walk around campus with a white lab coat over his arm once. When he was wearing jeans and a shirt, people asked what he was a student of. But if he was wearing slacks, a tie, and just combed his hair more traditionally, people addressed him as either sir, used "yes sir/no sir" with him, or even called him doctor. We all had to do social experiments like that.

So I would say it all depends not really on how chic the guy is, but how conscious and fixated on his looks he is. A guy character like the men from Burn Notice, some of the CS Is, How I Met Your Mother or something like that where they just always look cool, but don't describe or show how they achieve that look, are more enjoyable characters and easier to pull off in public opinion (in general) follow this model.

Now for kids shows, that I do know more about thanks to my spawn.

Normally any gender who is constantly fixated on their looks is depicted in a bad way. They are normally the snotty popular kids who are vain and shallow.

My Little Pony does show it different, but not without trying to show a balance in fashion concerns. That pony is sometimes called out for being too vain and that's fine. Balance is good. And all the ponys are called out at one time or another for taking a positive character trait or hobby like being independent, likening to be alone, or being attractive to a more negative extreme like butting off more than youcan chew or not asking for help to stop a problem from getting bigger.

I can aappreciate that approach more because there is nothing wrong with wanting to be pretty or look nice. What is wrong is when that is all you want or that is the only thing you build your self esteem and worth on.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#321: Apr 23rd 2013 at 10:14:37 AM

Wait, ladies. You're missing a huge piece to this. Namely, the difference between "male fashion" and "female fashion".

Mens' fashion is much more limited and far less explosive than womens'. While we're talking about the idea of a male Fashionista, we have to keep in mind that practicality is far more emphasized in mens' fashion than womens' fashion. Vanity Is Feminine and Delicate Is Beautiful assume that a woman's fashion should make her something that should be looked at, even at the cost of mobility, flexibility, comfort, practicality, or even safety. Mens' fashion typically takes strides to have function in addition to style.

The entire reason I created Action Fashionista and the above YKTTW was to try and find characters which buck this trend.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#322: Apr 23rd 2013 at 10:23:36 AM

Even that difference is very recent though, and not universal. For a very long time men's fashion was form over function unless you were poor. Look at the dandies. They were the greatest womenizers of their time and they wore high heels that would make most modern women balk. Even for men, fashion traditionally gets less practical the higher up in status you get. Yes, it doesn't currently go quite to the same extremes as women, but it used to be just as bad if not worse and until recently it's kept almost a pace.

edited 23rd Apr '13 10:24:30 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#323: Apr 23rd 2013 at 10:33:34 AM

Yeah, I know it's a new phenomenon. Like I said, I blame that on "gay" becoming a thing. Up until the late eighties, you could see some of the most eccentric fashions with men—but the eighties also happened to be the time of the great gay scare and AIDS hysteria. From that point on, there became this great desire to eliminate any and all possible accusations of gayness or feminization.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#324: Apr 23rd 2013 at 10:53:25 AM

Help me out Zeal, I am not getting your point.

Both Barney, Michael from Burn Notice, and other well dressed characters are still very practically dressed, they just take it to the next level of being stylish.

Like the difference between an Armani and say Target. Both are suits. Both are stylish and comfortable. But one is an Armani the other is bought at a big box store.

Now if people showed Barney spending hours on coordinating a wardrobe or him being finicky over his hair he would probably lose cool points because he just went from suave-carefree attractive to vain, micromanaged attractive.

When it comes to guys in media the emphasis seems to be effortlessly cool is good. Tedious fashion or narrow minded fashion is bad.

You can see this in most 80s and 90s action movies. A casually attractive good guy goes up against over done or too fashioned bad guys.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#325: Apr 23rd 2013 at 11:02:33 AM

What I'm saying is that you'll never see conventional male fashion dress a dude up in something like this.

Male fashion tends not to emphasize the curvature, titillation, or voluptosity of the male body. Unless it's S&M or a strip tease, men don't wear see-through garments, mesh, or bound pieces the way women do. Mens' clothes are not designed to induce Theiss Titillation Theory.

What I'm saying is that this is because men are taught to see this as disgusting and objectifying to THEM, but normal to women, because obviously women are supposed to be looked at.


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