The Scrappy Cleanup

So the Fire Emblem section has its own subpage. If it's been decided that none of the examples are valid, should we remove the entire subpage?

Well, if there are no more examples on a page, it should be deleted. Was it decided that none of the examples fit?

Looks like it was brought up on the previous page, but no consensus reached. My personal feeling is cut the subpage and move any examples that may be deemed legitimate back to the main Video Games section. I don't really see any of those characters getting enough hate to qualify for this trope.

nuke it.

I say nuke it as well. We've gone through pretty much every character on that page, and there's no concrete evidence that any of them have the vast majority of haters needed for Scrappydom.

edited 24th Mar '18 8:54:07 AM by dragonfire5000

None of them fit the current requirements, so I vote cut.

Should we check the Mario page too?

If you think there are any problematic entries there, go ahead and bring them here for discussion.

I think these examples on the Mario subpage should be removed:

• The Chimp: The reasons given are gameplay related and have nothing to do with his character.
• Fluzzard: Again, the reasons given are gameplay related. Though Fluzzard would fit better under Scrappy Mechanic.
• Huff N. Puff: It just states his boss battle as the reason players hate him, which has nothing to do with his character.
• TEC: He isn't a scrappy because there are people who find his subplot with Peach to be interesting instead of Squicky. Though he may be a Base-Breaking Character.
• Francis: A lot of fans find him to be funny. Plus the fact that his example starts with "to some extent" suggests that it's shoehorned.
• Starlow: I feel she's more of a Base-Breaking Character as she does have her fans.

edited 24th Mar '18 5:40:30 PM by ADrago

Kill the Fire Emblem page.

I'll go over the Mario page with opinions later.

Hi everyone! So I have a question. I noticed that there is usually a commented out note at the very top of the page, saying "NOTE: Before adding any entries, go to this forum... DO NOT ADD any characters unless you discuss them here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13598973560A64980100&page=1." So, I understand that we're not supposed to add any characters unless we discuss them here first. However, how about removing characters? If someone removes characters, should that be discussed here first as well? I've noticed that, at least on the Anime/Manga page, one troper named Rebel Falcon deleted a lot of examples just yesterday, and I mean a lot of examples. And their Edit Reason wasn't just long; it also seemed very opinionated, not factual. I feel that that long list of removals should have been discussed here first — especially since The Scrappy has this forum and it's a YMMV item — and that troper did not do that.

Please post the whole entry before the edit here. We''ll go over it.

Would be nice if ~Rebel Falcon could come here and expand upon those edit reasons.

Someone call me? I can pretty much sum up my reasoning on the edits for one reason: I was bored.

Sorta. I was actually checking out the Dragon Ball Super pages and noticed that despite Su Roas being listed in the Ensemble Darkhorse section, she was also listed as a scrappy by proxy via her group being listed as such. Because this seemed like contradictory edits, I modified the scrappy entry so it would note her being the exception and her being an Ensemble Dark Horse. I then realized it was probably on the Genre Sub Section of the Scrappy Page and went to edit it there too.

Then, because I was bored, I decided to take a look at some of the entries and compare what was put there to what is on their respective series YMMV pages. If any discrepancies were noted, I edited them to make it so they fit.

All characters I eliminated from the page I only did so because they are listed as Base Breaking Characters on their YMMV pages, not Scrappies. To be honest, not all of them I watched. I watched Zoids but didn't really care about Thomas, I watched Baka Test and like Minami, I've seen HOTD and don't really care for Rei, I've seen Mirai Nikki and don't mind Yuki, and I loved Bakugan but was apathetic to both Baron and Jake. My feelings on the Characters were not a factor however. I only wished to make sure there were no discrepancies between this page and their YMMV page. The only one that I nixed despite being listed as a Scrappy was Baron of Bakugan, as his entry seemed to be more generic complaining than actual reasoning, and I was too tired to bother copying the YMMV page to it and just wanted to get to bed.

This is actually something I tend to do when bored. Look to see if there is anything contradictory in an entry or may hold a potential bias, and edit it to either fix the contradiction or eliminate the bias.

EDIT: As for the entry on Citrus, that I don't know how that happened. After looking over the History and noting someone tried to erase it right before my edits, my only guess is that my Edit Lock expired while I was cross-checking, and they attempted to erase it, but because it was still on my version, when I published it, the entry was accidentally restored.

edited 30th Mar '18 7:27:04 PM by RebelFalcon

@R Alexa21th and @Another Duck: Should that commented-out note be modified to something like this: "NOTE: Before adding or removing any entries, go to this forum... DO NOT ADD OR REMOVE any characters unless you discuss them here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13598973560A64980100&page=1."? If you two are okay with it, I'll be more than happy to update that myself.

Sounds reasonable.

That also sounds reasonable. I didn't look at them in detail, but those probably aren't scrappies from what I can recall of fan rections to those characters. If someone's listed as Ensemble Dark Horse, they almost certainly don't fit. Might fit as Base-Breaking Character.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. These popularity tropes are often problematic, so we have dedicated threads for several of them, and require edits to go through those threads. If you come across something, please bring it up in the appropriate thread.

Ultimate Marvel has their take on Deadpool, primarily amongst fans who had come in from the original Marvel Universe. 616 Deadpool, while having originally been created as basically a rip-off of Teen Titans villain Deathstroke the Terminator, is well-known in current pop-culture for going so deep into Chaotic Stupid that he emerges in the deepest part of Chaotic Awesome, glorifying in surreal, bloody-yet-wacky antics and lots and lots of fourth wall breaking, perhaps being the best known comic version of the Fourth-Wall Observer. 1610 Deadpool, on the other hand, is a horrifically mutilated cyborg; not only is he an active participant in a mutant-phobic country's sick program of kidnapping mutants from other countries and then hunting them down to slaughter them on national live television for entertainment, he's fully aware that they are usually innocent. He just hunts them anyway because he finds it fun. In other words, Ultimate Deadpool is crazy, but in a sick and horrifying way, whereas Mainstream Deadpool is pure Crazy Awesome, and so the fans of the original revile the Ultimate version — the closest Ultimate Deadpool has come to being Rescued from the Scrappy Heap is when he appeared as a Composite Character (Ultimate Marvel appearance and rough MO (still runs a reality show), Marvel Comics personality) in Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions.

Ultimate Marvel is an Ultimate Universe, so of course that Deadpool was modified. That's the whole premise of such universes. As for the type of change, that's just a usual and standard kind of villain for the X-Men. In fact, he's The Dragon for Ultimate Mojo (a classic X-Men villain, and this whole thing "hunt mutants on live television for a weird showbiz" is his whole thing, at both universes). And he was not a recurring character anyway, he appeared in a single arc.

edited 31st Mar '18 7:50:42 PM by GrigorII

Okay. Yu-Gi-Oh! ZEXAL

Yuma is listed under Americans Hate Tingle and The Scrappy. Which one is correct?

Speaking of Yuma, Americans Hate Tingle is the right one. I mean he's ok in Japan AFAIK.

edited 3rd Apr '18 11:52:30 AM by n3xus

More from the same page

The numbers club is disqualified due to being a group. It even mentions two popular characters.

edited 3rd Apr '18 11:54:03 AM by RAlexa21th

The "it could be safe to say" part also sounds a bit too speculative. Sounds a bit too much like someone really wanted to put them on there but didn't want to check and see if the vast majority of the fanbase actually hates the characters.

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:01:06 PM by dragonfire5000

For the Scrappy page for Pokémon, I noticed that the entries for individual species were removed. However, there are a few species I believe have a strong case for qualifying as The Scrappy:

• Mr. Mime — largely due to its unappealing, Uncanny Valley design, it commonly appears on "worst Pokémon of all time" lists and is the butt of many jokes over its disturbing appearance.
• Jynx — see Mr. Mime, but with the added blackface controversy
• Lickilicky and Probopass — the two most disliked new evolutions in Gen IV, they are also disliked for their unendearing designs and poor prowess in battle
• Trubbish, Vanillite, Klink and Klefki lines — these Pokémon also frequently appear on "all-time worst" lists, are treated as Snark Bait among people who dislike newer generations for being based on random inanimate objects, and do not have very many passionate defenders
• Crabominable — for its unappealing design (notice a pattern here?), and for being a major low-end Tier Induced Scrappy that appears to ditch the boxing aesthetic that its pre-evolution had

Any feedback? Should they be added to the page?

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:24:57 PM by Chasem

What do the Japanese fanbase think?

Jynx would probably be more a case of Americans Hate Tingle if the vast majority of the western fanbase dislike her. That's because, from what I understand (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), "blackface" doesn't really have any significant cultural meaning in Japan. The original design was probably meant to invoke a particular youkai, but I could be wrong.

Also, most of those entries read like personal wonks. They don't really say much other than someone out there doesn't like their design.

Most of those come from reading lots of "worst Pokémon ever" articles/lists on the Internet and seeing many of those Pokémon listed as consistent factors, particularly Mr. Mime, Jynx and the Gen V and VI inanimate objects (especially Trubbish/Garbodor and Klefki). The two exceptions are Lickilicky (who I haven't heard much of but pretty much presumed that it'd be disliked) and Crabominable (which is too new to have made many such lists). I don't know what Japan thinks of Jynx tbqh, but it could be possible that they find some Uncanny Valley factor in it too since many Western fans dislike its design even with purple skin (would need to verify); it still stands that Jynx is one of the most memetically hated Pokémon ever, but the question is whether it's exclusive to the West or worldwide.

While we're at it, are the Gen V elemental monkeys worth mentioning? I remember not many people liked them in Gen V for their near-identical designs and weak stats, but it's worth noting that Simisear got last place out of all 721 species at the time in a popularity poll.

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:35:38 PM by Chasem

All about Jynx is speculation nothing has ever been confirmed. Most likely it was based on a Yama-uba, the "Mountain Nurse.". which is a Yōkai wearing a tattered red kimono, having whitish-blonde hair, control over snow, dark-colored skin, large lips and seduces her victims by dancing while they freeze to death. In Noh Theater they were depicted via blackface.

The official design, meaning even in Japan, was changed her coloring to be purple which is supposedly as an analog to frostbite.

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:44:20 PM by Memers

What do the others qualify for, then? Do we have proof of what Pokémon are hated by the Japanese/international fanbase? Jynx's case is unique because most of its hate comes from Western Values Dissonance and it can therefore be assumed to be a case of Americans Hate Tingle at the very least, but said Values Dissonance doesn't apply so much to the others. For example, is Mr. Mime a similar case to the Trope Namer in that Japanese fans love it for looking weird and quirky, or are they indifferent/do they hate it as much as Western fans do?

Out of the ones I mentioned, the only Pokémon widely known by Western fans to be outright hated/disliked in Japan is Simisear (and possibly the elemental monkeys as a whole), due to its abysmal popularity poll ranking.

edited 3rd Apr '18 12:45:49 PM by Chasem