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The Scrappy Cleanup

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1326: Mar 11th 2017 at 1:28:23 PM

You just did and therefore wasted your question. You do, however, get a second one if you're nice, so go ahead. smile

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n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#1327: Mar 12th 2017 at 7:25:55 AM

[up]Thanks, btw Nobuyuki Sigou from Sword Art Online was an intentional Hate Sink in the series while some viewers sees him as the scrappy for being an incompetent villain than Kayaba. Is he still a legit scrappy technically?

This is all Zi-O's fault!
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1328: Mar 12th 2017 at 11:13:40 AM

Not sure. Not all villains are meant to be seen as competent, and sometimes that lack of competence is what brings them down, which is intentional. The SAO fandom is pretty crap in my opinion, though, so I'm not sure whether that is the majority or just the vocal minority. There are a lot of loudmouths around that series, in any direction.

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WaterBlap Blapper of Water Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
#1329: Mar 12th 2017 at 11:29:03 AM

Question: Did this thread ever really come to a consensus about Nice Guy being The Scrappy or being on the Scrappy Index? I am asking because (1) y'all started talking about it (at least a bit) and (2) someone brought up the complainy aspects of the entry in the Removing complaining thread.

I don't normally post in this clean-up effort, but I'd intuitively think that Nice Guy doesn't necessarily mean "flat character" or "The Scrappy."

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
whizzerd Transcender of Gender from Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Transcender of Gender
#1330: Mar 12th 2017 at 11:53:40 AM

The entry for Nice Guy on Scrappy Index:

Their lack of depth often bores the audience enough to be hated.

reads like someone mistook it for Flat Character or The Generic Guy. I'm struggling to think of any examples where a character being 'a nice, friendly, well-balanced individual' caused them to be hated by the majority of their fandom, and if they do exist then they're vastly outclassed by the amount of nice characters who're treated with love or apathy by fans.

Definitely vote to remove it from Scrappy Index. I'd also vote to remove the Scrappy Index altogether, or limit it strictly to the tropes that are explicitly related to The Scrappy, but that might be a convo for another thread.

edited 12th Mar '17 11:56:56 AM by whizzerd

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1331: Mar 12th 2017 at 12:25:44 PM

Yeah, remove Nice Guy from Scrappy Index. The entry is talking about a specific way to write it that isn't even specific to that trope, but to every other character trope there is, so I find it actively misleading, since it can get people to misinterpret what the trope is about.

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keyblade333 Ferdinand Von Aegir fan from In the void between worlds. Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ferdinand Von Aegir fan
#1332: Mar 12th 2017 at 7:29:53 PM

I'd argue Nobuyuki Sigou from SAO is still a scrappy. The main reason is because while your supposed to hate him, the way the series does this is to make him a outright Complete Monster with no qualms more or less sexually assaulting Asuna. If he was just a Mad Scientist, than yeah he'd be an ass and not a scrappy but the fact he's such a despicable human being who really doesn't get what he deserves really seems to me to be a scrappy.

Also there's the sheer Squick factor of him. I don't like SAO and I think he's a scrappy, but that's just me.

edited 12th Mar '17 7:30:43 PM by keyblade333

Muramasa got.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1333: Mar 12th 2017 at 7:53:27 PM

Reading that explanation, I lean towards him not qualifying.

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Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#1334: Mar 13th 2017 at 12:56:44 AM

[up][up]Yeah, no. Someone clearly designed to be that despicable is more likely a Hate Sink rather than The Scrappy.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1335: Mar 13th 2017 at 1:15:07 AM

That's blatantly a hate sink, not a scrappy. Shouldn't be listed.

Shadow?
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
#1336: Mar 13th 2017 at 12:46:27 PM

[up]x5 Are there any restrictions on submitting complaints on Scrappy Index at this point since the thread reached no consensus? Resubmit a TRS thread? IDK, even if we didn't reach a consensus it doesn't change the fact that it has problems if this recent issue shows anything. I was a little surprised about it closing, but I don't know what qualifications are for "No Consensus", so there might be something I'm missing. And if there's a better place to ask about this by all means tell me.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1337: Mar 13th 2017 at 1:35:37 PM

Well, no consensus doesn't mean further discussion is closed off. I'm not sure exactly what's the best option is to proceed, though. A more limited TRS thread for a lesser change or cleanup might work better, since the last one had a bunch of different mutually exclusive suggestions, which split everyone's opinions about what to do. Personally I think just removing all tropes that aren't directly related to audience hatred one way or another would work well enough, or at least to begin with. And even just that you can debate what actually counts as "directly related".

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shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#1338: Mar 13th 2017 at 3:06:55 PM

What did we decide on cleaning up the Sonic and Metal Gear pages?

edited 13th Mar '17 3:07:01 PM by shoboni

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1339: Mar 13th 2017 at 3:18:39 PM

As someone in the Sonic fandom, the only ones on the page in the video game section of the Sonic page that qualify are Big, Omochao, Elise, and Boom's version of Shadow. The others on the page are Base Breakers.

edited 13th Mar '17 3:20:37 PM by PhiSat

Oissu!
n3xus I am the King! from Somewhere in the Mirror World Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: In season
I am the King!
#1340: Mar 13th 2017 at 8:06:15 PM

I guess Sugou is more of an intentional Hate Sink for raping Asuna in front of Kirito in VR.

This is all Zi-O's fault!
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#1341: Mar 13th 2017 at 8:08:50 PM

[up][up]Big is a bit different, as he gets more popular later on. Like Raiden, I'd say Big is only The Scrappy in Sonic Adventure 1 and Base-Breaking Character everywhere else.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#1342: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:58:33 PM

And Shadow is rescued in the Sonic Boom series as well.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1343: Mar 14th 2017 at 4:22:30 PM

Rescued doesn't mean they can't be the scrappy. It means that they got redeemed later on overall from being the scrappy. Both kinds of entries tend to coincide with each other.

My only question(as I asked earlier) is if we're supposed to have entries for both tropes, or if it's just the Rescued trope that only needs an entry. >.<

Shadow?
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#1344: Mar 14th 2017 at 4:48:38 PM

[up]I feel characters in Rescued from the Scrappy Heap should not be listed under The Scrappy, if only because to be in Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, you had to be considered The Scrappy in the first place. The entry in Rescued from the Scrappy Heap can give a brief description of why the character used to be The Scrappy, while also mentioning how they managed to escape the label.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#1345: Mar 14th 2017 at 4:50:08 PM

I think I agree. However, let's say Elise was hated in Sonic 06 but her actions in Sonic 08 makes her popular, I'd still say she is a Scrappy in 06 because the events that caused her to be rescued from the scrappy heap did not exist in that game.

edited 14th Mar '17 4:53:23 PM by RAlexa21th

Continue writing our story of peace.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#1346: Mar 14th 2017 at 6:10:30 PM

If the character is saved within the same work, I wouldn't list her. If it's something like a later game, and it's not an episodic game, if a character is The Scrappy for one game, and then gets a different treatment in another, the character is still The Scrappy as far as the first game is concerned.

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shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#1347: Mar 14th 2017 at 7:00:40 PM

Boom!Shadow being a scrappy is news to me and I'm knee-deep in the Sonic fandom over on Tumblr...

Okay so are we clear on at least cutting Cream and possibly Charmy? Possibly Marine as well? I'd say Silver can go as well because one of the few things about that game fans elected to hang on to.

The Olympic games need to go as well because it seems to be an intentional plot device.

I want to know so I can go and make the cleaning edits.

edited 14th Mar '17 7:04:44 PM by shoboni

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#1348: Mar 14th 2017 at 11:25:52 PM

I can't see Boom Shadow being a Scrappy when he's in the game for so little time. It's hard to make that much of a negative impact when you're barely there.

shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#1349: Mar 14th 2017 at 11:29:39 PM

Plus he was actually done pretty well in the cartoon where they intentionally played his edgy traits for laughs to great effect.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1350: Mar 14th 2017 at 11:31:47 PM

I don't remember any cases where Marine was well received at all, or rescued, so I think she can stay.

Big definitely counts for Adventure 1, is rescued in other games and can have that trope instead, and if it's a general Sonic page, apply rescued with a short summary of what he used to be.

Charmy was kind of annoying in the games, but I don't remember him being any worse that base breaking.

Boom!Shadow was very much hated for being a literal shadow of his old personality and just there to cause trouble. He's even worse in the show where's he's a serious villain for the sake of it. Even his own game's personality is significantly more popular, being he wasn't flat at all. That said, when was he rescued? Cause I agree he deserves the spot. Did the fandom let up on him to make him base-breaking? Either way, there's no question he was disliked immensely for his role in the series.

[up] Did he get new episodes in Season 2? In Season 1, he was purposely edgy(not in the fun way like in Shadow's regular game), constantly praised by Eggman, wasn't actually played for laughs at all, and everything was severely serious compared to other episodes. If he got rescued in a later episode, then yeah, might not be as bad, but his first show impression left a lot to be desired. It's like they took his less popular game personality from Shadow's game itself and ramped it up so bad they removed the cheese and anything remotely funny about it. Why, I dunno. It also is very accurate to his pointlessly dark personality in the Boom games. He was always dark, but also had real motivations too. His first appearance in the games leaves him as nothing more than a flat obstacle for Sonic, and his other ones are still pretty low on motivation, so it's understandable why many didn't like him much at all. This is why I say he's a valid entry(albeit, if people actually no longer hate him like they used to, than base-breaking is more appropriate).

edited 14th Mar '17 11:36:12 PM by Irene

Shadow?

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