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The Scrappy Cleanup

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Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#5701: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:16:46 AM

I really don't see the point in disqualifying a Scrappy based on nothingburgers from a nonexistent sector of the fanbase.

We cannot accurately measure every fan's opinion, so we have to go with how the majority feels. The Japanese opinion shouldn't be weighed so heavily when they aren't even a blip on the radar in this instance.

Edited by Karxrida on Jul 8th 2023 at 10:17:00 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5702: Jul 8th 2023 at 11:45:41 AM

Mods, what's the ruling here? The evidence we have makes the home (Japanese) audience seem indifferent rather than hateful, but the foreign (Western) audience, who actually hates the Six, is much larger.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jul 8th 2023 at 1:46:28 PM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5703: Jul 8th 2023 at 11:56:52 AM

I haven't really seen anything I could conclusively say is hatred from the Japanese audience, as far as I can tell. I looked through some reviews of the game, but while there are a lot of criticisms towards Lost World, the Japanese don't really mention any of the Zeti as cons.

I've also seen a fair number of non-Japanese fans say that they like the Deadly Six, even if they also think the Deadly Six aren't the best villains in the series.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#5704: Jul 8th 2023 at 5:20:44 PM

But what exactly is the quantifying amount we needed to determine a scrappy?

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5705: Jul 8th 2023 at 7:38:38 PM

I recently found an entry in Monster Hunter that I think isn't an example, but I figured I'd bring it here just in case:

Most of the main series Piscine Wyvern-type large monsters tend to get it pretty bad from the fans for different reasons. People hate Jyuratodus because they think its design is bland and ugly, they hate the World variant of Lavasioth for being a pain in the behind, and they hate Plesioth (and Cephadrome to an extent) for being extremely obnoxious. The only real exception to the rule is Beotodus, since its snow shark design is appealing to some people, and it serves as a fair Warm-Up Boss to Iceborne's Master Rank.

Here are my issues with this entry:

  • The way the entry is written seems to lump a bunch of monsters together in one entry.
  • The reasons given are not for narrative reasons.
  • There is no indication that the game's home audience hates the monsters.

Also as a heads-up, Plesioth already has a Goddamned Boss entry in Monster Hunter.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5706: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:18:44 PM

[up]Jyuratodus Seems to be the only one of those that has any credibility for this trope. The other two being hated for gameplay reasons is outside this trope and the other is considered the “exception”.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#5707: Jul 9th 2023 at 4:39:03 AM

Just throwing this in here before I take it to NREP -

X-Pac Heat is the Scrappy-equivalent trope where the unwanted hate extends to the performer as well as The Scrappy character.

Currently, examples are only listed for Professional Wrestling (which provided the unfortunate trope namer), due to NRLEP concerns about troping real people.

(This also ties into the wider conversation about whether listing The Scrappy for reality tv contestants is veering into this)

It's not currently got a No Recent Examples, Please! rule - but feels like it should be the same 6 month rule as The Scrappy.

Any concerns about that here?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 9th 2023 at 12:39:29 PM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5708: Jul 9th 2023 at 4:48:21 AM

Mods, what's the ruling here? The evidence we have makes the home (Japanese) audience seem indifferent rather than hateful, but the foreign (Western) audience, who actually hates the Six, is much larger.

This post was hollered for feedback but asking a mod to make a call on a clean up thread doesn't really work. You can't expect us to be following every thread and this sound like something that can be solved with community consensus. I don't follow this thread so I can't say I know what's being talked about here.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 9th 2023 at 9:30:08 AM

Macron's notes
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5709: Jul 9th 2023 at 5:43:26 AM

[up] We’ve been talking about “The Deadly Six” from Sonic Lost World after they were cut for the trope being “individuals only”. The argument then became over what the Japanese fans back home think that might bump them down to Americans Hate Tingle. The problem being that not only did Sonic never really catch on in Japan, but the sales of the games they appeared in sold extremely badly, so finding the opinions of Japanese Sonic fans who know about and have strong opinions on them is a herculean task. Current consensus is in favor of them being valid candidates for the trope, though whether we restore the original or create individualized entries for each could use further discussion.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 9th 2023 at 6:48:24 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5710: Jul 9th 2023 at 7:17:29 AM

Oh, I see. I don't know the work so I don't have much of an opinion on what you guys should do. I do think that if each character in a group has distinct reasons for being hated that they should all get individual entries.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 9th 2023 at 10:20:55 AM

Macron's notes
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5711: Jul 9th 2023 at 7:50:44 AM

[up] They're essentially all hated for being bland stereotypes and conceptually being ripoffs of the Koopalings from the Super Mario Bros. games. A few are less hated. So I'll both bring back up the cut version and a rewrite focusing on them individually. The original cut version:

A rewrite version detailing each minus Zazz and Zor per Mariofan99's suggestion:

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 9th 2023 at 8:55:36 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5712: Jul 9th 2023 at 8:31:40 AM

Regarding the Six, I haven't been able to find any indication that they're actually hated in Japan at all, and I've also seen several people, non-Japanese included, express that they like the Six. Even Japanese reviews that heavily criticize the game do not include the Six as reasons why they didn't like the game.

Since there isn't any indication that the Six are hated in their game's home country, the Six still seem to be Americans Hate Tingle at worst.


Regarding Jyuratodus from the Monster Hunter entry I brought up, I found that it scored around #50 in a Japanese popularity poll, but we all know scoring low on popularity polls does not mean a character is hated. I have my doubts that it counts as The Scrappy.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#5713: Jul 10th 2023 at 12:30:02 AM

Okay, so this example from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: JoJolion:

  • Joshu Higashikata is widely hated for his ugly design as well as behavior that ranges from "spoiled brat" to "sexual predator", effectively making him a Yandere minus the Moe charm that makes that trope appealing. While it briefly seemed like he could be Rescued from the Scrappy Heap when he offered to sacrifice himself to save Yasuho's life through equivalent exchange, even that fell through when it turned out his true intentions in that moment were just as perverted and creepy as ever.

The guy's definetly an asshole for sure, and he's got haters, but the story seems to be intentionally depict him in this way. He's The Un-Favourite of the family, and his behaviour almost always bites him in the ass. Maybe not a full hate sink due to him actually having care for his father and to an extent the rest of his family, and well, having saved Yasuho when she was about to be killed by the Big Bad. There's a whole arc focused on him and his own mentality, and to my knowlege, the arc is not hated because it centers around him either.

Hell, i think he's got some that Love to Hate him.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Jul 10th 2023 at 12:33:05 PM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5714: Jul 10th 2023 at 6:29:59 AM

[up] I don’t know enough about Jojo to rule on it.

But since there was little further discussion, I’m going to use the second version to restore the Deadly Six to the Sonic the Hedgehog page.

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5715: Jul 10th 2023 at 8:33:24 AM

[up] It was pointed out multiple times that the Six have defenders on both sides of the pond. They're not scrappies.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#5716: Jul 10th 2023 at 8:37:35 AM

I have genuinely never seen a Deadly Six defender anywhere I've been in the fandom. I won't say I've been on every Sonic forum, but I frequented quite a few during the Lost World days. I can say with a high degree of certainty if these defenders do exist, they are a minority.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 10th 2023 at 9:39:08 AM

Oissu!
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5717: Jul 10th 2023 at 8:41:06 AM

I've mentioned that I've seen people express that they like the Six, even if they don't think the Six are the best villains in the series.

Funnily enough, more than one person has compared them to the Ginyu Force in a positive way. I'm not much of a Dragon Ball reader, so I never thought about that particular comparison until now.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jul 10th 2023 at 8:46:14 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#5718: Jul 10th 2023 at 9:11:01 AM

I'm not much in the Sonic fandom these days, but once again I see Zeena being added with the Deadly Six as a hated character. If anything, I've seen her being the only one people tolerate because of her appealing design.

Zavok likewise has seen some positive reaction due to the IDW comics. If that can't count, then fine, he can be in the article.

The only ones who appear to be universally disliked, are Zomom and Master Zik for being very unfunny.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jul 10th 2023 at 9:16:38 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5719: Jul 10th 2023 at 9:26:54 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#5720: Jul 10th 2023 at 9:42:35 AM

I'm going to fight Zeena being removed. All I've seen is people getting pissed about her being a sexist stereotype. I remember people thinking she had potential and a cute design before the game was released, but then the game came out and perception quickly changed to hatred and annoyance.

Oissu!
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5721: Jul 10th 2023 at 9:50:51 AM

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jul 10th 2023 at 11:51:41 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5722: Jul 10th 2023 at 9:51:31 AM

[up][up][up] I only asked for clarification of the gray zone we're discussing, not to be "rescued" by the mods. Please don't twist my words. If consensus wants them to stay, I won't push it further.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jul 10th 2023 at 11:51:48 AM

DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5723: Jul 10th 2023 at 11:09:51 AM

[up] I misunderstood the situation. The mods have made clear what I said was out of line so I’ll try not to make that mistake again.

But to reiterate what was salvageable, I’m neutral on Zeena, but as for Zavok, while I think IDW’s usage is probably the least hated usage of him, it was still a controversial point at the time and not all Sonic fans read the comics. Heck, I initially only found out about Tangle and Whisper through Atop the Fourth Wall.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 10th 2023 at 12:10:52 PM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#5724: Jul 10th 2023 at 11:39:46 AM

Chiming in as a Sonic outsider, but I think if there's trouble finding a substantial Japanese fanbase for this particular game at all, we shouldn't disqualify it on the basis they don't hate the characters as vocally as the American audience, even if the game was made in Japan. Every Scrappy is guaranteed to have a few fans, so we should try to focus on the general opinions of the active fanbase rather than dig for niche opinions. Most YMMV items can't consider the opinions of people who don't post them anywhere.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 10th 2023 at 2:40:28 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#5725: Jul 11th 2023 at 6:01:12 AM

[up] Yeah, that's about my thoughts too

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA

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