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The Scrappy Cleanup

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TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#5676: Jul 7th 2023 at 6:54:05 PM

Sunset Shimmer's reputation got so Rescued from the Scrappy Heap (for what little hate that they had, if i remember), that Starlight Glimmer is considered a Replacement Scrappy, if i remember correctly.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on Jul 7th 2023 at 6:54:53 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5677: Jul 7th 2023 at 6:57:17 PM

Also, here's a Deadly six rewrite:

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5678: Jul 7th 2023 at 6:58:54 PM

[up] But does Japan hate them?

[down][down] I don't have any. That's why I'm asking.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jul 7th 2023 at 9:22:45 AM

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#5679: Jul 7th 2023 at 7:03:55 PM

Does Zeena really have that many haters? Thought her design meant that she wouldn't have enough to be a scrappy.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5680: Jul 7th 2023 at 7:22:00 PM

[up][up] Do you have evidence they're well liked in Japan. I genuinely don't know, but if so I would think that just downgrades Zavok to being Americans Hate Tingle.

[up] Just taking someone else's suggestion. If it only comes down to one, it's probably going to be Zavok.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5681: Jul 7th 2023 at 7:45:21 PM

The burden of proof falls on those claiming that characters are Scrappies. If there isn't any conclusive evidence that the characters are sufficiently hated in their home country, then they're Americans Hate Tingle at worst.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5682: Jul 7th 2023 at 8:42:04 PM

[up] Actually...I'm not sure if Japan is relevant in this discussion. It's a rather well documented problem that Sonic never caught on back in Japan like he did internationally, but relevant to this discussion is the fact that Sonic Lost World in particular sold abysmally in Japan and the other games featuring Zavok, Sonic Forces and Team Sonic Racing, Sold better but not by much. Thus it's a significant challenge to find the opinions of the Japanese fandom on them, but what little I could find didn't suggest high opinions.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 7th 2023 at 9:46:13 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5683: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:06:33 PM

Sonic is still a Japanese franchise, so the opinions of the Japanese still need to be considered to make sure Americans Hate Tingle is not in effect.

Funnily enough, I remember someone trying to pull the "it's not as popular in its home country as it is worldwide, so the home country opinion isn't relevant" card on The Legend of Zelda to try and shoehorn someone into The Scrappy a while back.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Oct 9th 2024 at 12:23:47 PM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5684: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:52:25 PM

[up] That's an apples to oranges comparison. The best selling Zelda games in Japan are in the 1 million+ range, so there is a statistically significant consumer base in Japan to consider. The best selling Sonic games in Japan don't even crack half a million, most have been outsold by the Tingle spinoff that never got released stateside because Americans Hate Tingle. And the sales for Lost World in Japan are about 10,000 of the 710,000 copies it sold worldwide.

I'm not trying to be dismissive, I've genuinely tried to find Japanese opinions on Zavok to the best of my (admittedly very limited) ability. But you're essentially asking me to find a needle in a haystack.

[down] I feel like the logic we're using here would jeopardize most of the Sonic Game examples. I'll wait to see if anybody else has evidence of what the Japanese fans thought or maybe try searching harder for the proverbial needle tomorrow.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:17:15 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5686: Jul 7th 2023 at 10:44:32 PM

I'm of the opinion that if there isn't conclusive evidence that the majority of the game's home audience does hate the character, said character should not have an entry.

We're not losing anything of value by not having a Scrappy entry for such a character.

[down]Thanks for the correction.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:07:53 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5687: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:04:52 PM

[up] You mean "does"?

[up][up][up] We've had several Scrappy entries already removed for lack of evidence that the home audience hates them, and mods have said before that this is the proper way to handle that.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jul 7th 2023 at 1:07:42 PM

TotemGenitor Bye Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bye
#5688: Jul 8th 2023 at 1:10:12 AM

[up][up] If I understand it correctly, the "home audience" doesn't really exist for Sonic.

Also, doesn't Americans Hate Tingle require the character to be at least somewhat popular with the home audience? If we don't find examples of Japanese people liking Deadly Six more than we can find examples of them hating, then I don't think we can add the example to Americans Hate Tingle.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#5689: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:08:49 AM

If a home audience is lacking then that suggests lack of interest rather than dislike. So, I'm not sure "no home audience" should be equated to "hates the work".

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#5690: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:31:13 AM

I think this is an easy cut decision, but posting here so it's not entirely unilateral - from TheScrappy.Hells Kitchen:

Oh, this shit will be ugly...
Non-Contestants
  • The fashion designer judges from one of Season 10's challenges are widely despised for their snobby attitudes and giving little value to how the dishes themselves tasted.
  • Mark Frissora, the final judge in the final tasting challenge in Season 17 (All Stars), immediately became infamous and hated by fans due to him choosing to eliminate Nick in the finale, despite Nick being labeled as a major favorite in the season and him being labeled as the most improved overall All-Star from the season. Doesn't help that Frissora wasn't even directly involved in the food industrynote , and after the show aired, a persistent (albeit unfounded) rumor spread that he eliminated Nick for personal reasons.

So, No Real Life Examples, Please! has an exception for reality contestants, due to manipulative editing creating a narrative.

But these aren't contestants - and judges and hosts aren't any kind of character. IMO it's no different to declaring a game show or talk show judge/host as the scrappy.

(And uncited rumours outside the work have no place here and can't cling to any sort of "not RL" justification)

So: breaks NRLEP, cut?

(I'm not a fan of the wider use of The Scrappy and similar tropes for reality contestants, either - but that has its own thread now)

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 8th 2023 at 11:31:47 AM

TotemGenitor Bye Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bye
#5691: Jul 8th 2023 at 3:52:47 AM

[up][up] It's not about hating the work though. It's more that the home audience of Sonic is not really significant and that requiring their opinion on whether or not a character is giving them disproportionate weight.

[up] Cut

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5692: Jul 8th 2023 at 4:13:54 AM

[up] I mean, I wouldn't say it's disproportionate; the entire audience is supposed to hate The Scrappy, so if there's a significant portion of the fandom that doesn't, even if it's just one side of the fandom in one part of the world, that's an automatic disqualifier because it means the hatred is not universal.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#5693: Jul 8th 2023 at 5:07:48 AM

To give my two cents on the deadly six thing I feel they qualify as Scrappies as I haven’t seen major discussion from the Japanese side that particularly defend them. While I’m sure they have SOME fans by that logic no character can qualify for Americans Hate Tingle

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5694: Jul 8th 2023 at 6:44:13 AM

[up] That's not the same thing as hatred, though, which is what the trope requires.

DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5695: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:03:27 AM

Going through the discussion, I think it's about an even split on the Americans Hate Tingle point. But, there was at least one person saying it should only be Zavok, so assuming that puts it at 5-4 I'll do a rewrite with that as the basis.

If anybody has more concrete evidence on Japanese fans though, please post it. I'll look harder in the mean time.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5696: Jul 8th 2023 at 8:56:34 AM

[up][up]Agreed; just because people do not defend a character doesn't necessarily mean they hate the character. Again, if people can't find evidence that a character is sufficiently hated by people from their work's home country, then said character should not have a Scrappy entry at all.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#5697: Jul 8th 2023 at 9:54:08 AM

[up] There’s only so much to be done when even Sega doesn’t seem to care much about its Japanese Sonic fanbase. I genuinely tried to find clear evidence of what Japanese Sonic fans thought, but since I don’t speak Japanese the best I can manage was searching Japanese terms and using Google Translate. Most I could find was press releases and people acknowledging that said characters exist.

You’re free to dispute it and I’m fine waiting a day or two for further input or a mod ruling, but otherwise I don’t think you’re in a position to overrule me and others, especially since my 5-4 guess is probably a lowball estimate.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 8th 2023 at 10:55:28 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#5698: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:02:35 AM

As said before: if you can't find any actual concrete evidence that the character is hated by the majority of Japanese fans, then the character shouldn't have an entry.

The burden of proof lies on the person claiming the character is a Scrappy to find evidence that the character is actually meets the requirements. If no one can find anything, then there shouldn't be an entry. Putting a character up without the requirements being fulfilled is just shoehorning.

Again, we lose nothing of value by not having such an entry on the wiki. Better that we have only a few entries that actually have proof than a bunch of entries without proof.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5699: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:07:54 AM

Isn't this wrong though? Americans Hate Tingle requires the charActers to be liked in his home audience. And sonic is awkward because it doesn't have an impact in Japan itself compared to you know......The west

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5700: Jul 8th 2023 at 10:09:34 AM

The Scrappy needs hatred through. If people simply don't discuss a character, that implies apathy or neutrality on the subject. The Scrappy doesn't work if a chunk of the fandom is simply "meh" on them.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

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