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The Scrappy Cleanup

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Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
TBJack The Destroyer of Food from Carolina, Puerto Rico Since: Jul, 2021 Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
The Destroyer of Food
#5402: Feb 2nd 2023 at 7:49:58 AM

From Dishonored's YMMV page:

The Scrappy:

Wallace, the butler of Lord Pendleton. Pendleton is a snob, but he doesn't take it to quite the same extremes as his butler. Wallace can often be found berating Lydia or Cecelia for their less-than-stellar performance by aristocratic standards, even though they're doing the best they can with horrible conditions in a time when basic safety marked one as lucky. For instance: Cecelia keeps the Pub clean in the middle of an abandoned, plague-ridden, flooded district; Wallace berates her for not knowing how to do a proper curtsey. He also mentions he doesn't care about the Weepers, stating they're 'only' poor people in a High Chaos run (in a Low Chaos run, he suggests Lord Pendleton fund a memorial to those who died during the plague so they won't be forgotten.)

Lord Pendleton himself seems deliberately this, though he's remarkably hated less than his butler. He's usually quite nice and polite to Corvo, although there's an undercurrent of sliminess to his character that makes him unpleasant to deal with. He also tries to make you kill someone in a duel without telling you about it beforehand by instructing you to hand a noble a sealed letter that incites the duel, which would ruin a Pacifist Run.

I believe that both examples are misuse. With Wallace he is a Jerkass and a Hate Sink, to the point that he would have easily been the Loyalist Conspirators Token Evil Teammate if not for Farley Havelock, Treavor Pendleton and Teague Martin betraying Corvo, that the player is supposed to dislike. With Lord Pondleton, YMMV tropes cannot be played with(especially characterization ones), and again he is meant to be disliked.

If you ask me, the true Scrappy of the game is Timothy Brisby, Lady Boyle's creepy stalker. His gross goal, ugly appearance, and that the game kind of glosses over the fact that the player can potentially help a wannabe rapist is a real point of contention to the Dishonored fandom to say the least(especially among female fans for reasons that should be obvious). Even the developers grew to hate him and regret creating Boyle's "non-lethal" option as they criticized the game's portrayal of women in various interviews and made so that canonically Boyle escapes from his captivity, kills him and steals his fortunes in the Dishonored: The Corroded Man spin-off novel.

Edited by TBJack on Feb 2nd 2023 at 10:39:28 AM

Beware, I live!
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#5403: Feb 2nd 2023 at 1:16:40 PM

[up][tup]Cutting Wallace and Pendleton as intentionally unlikeable and adding Brisby as the creators admitting/openly regretting they turned out such and punishing/bashing them in response is the most objective proof of Scrappydom.

This was added back to TheScrappy.Western Animation citing "If Tweety can get listed here I feel the more controversial Pepe should be listed."

  • Pepé Le Pew is one of the least popular members of the cast, due to a huge amount of Values Dissonance that his shorts carry, given a lot of his humor flies very close to Black Comedy Rape by today's standards. Not helped with how several of his shorts by Chuck Jones did actually end up with him winning over Penelope, making his unwanted advances fly under Karma Houdini. He was unpopular enough to be very publicly removed from Space Jam: A New Legacy by Warner Bros. themselves.

I believe they were cut as if they're only hated due to VD, they're not Scrappy which requires they be hated at the time of the work (Character Perception Evolution covers that). Should they be re-removed? Regarding Tweety being listed:

  • Tweety deserves this title too, mostly because he was made more for cute appeal rather than humor, though he also has his fans. It should be noted that a lot of Tweety's unpopularity is due to Flanderization and Badass Decay under the direction of Friz Freleng, making his shorts more a Villain Protagonist series with Sylvester. The more capable, deceptively sadistic Tweety made by Bob Clampett (and some of Freleng's earlier works) is more popular.

This sounds like an easy cut as: 1. It notes he has fans. 2. He's only hated under certain writers/eras violating the consistency hated rule. 3. He's one of the most iconic Loony Toons while it's Scrappies have in comparison been buried and ignored. Thoughts?

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#5404: Feb 2nd 2023 at 10:06:13 PM

[up]From what I've seen, those are more base-breaking characters, so I'd cut them both.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Feb 3rd 2023 at 12:26:41 PM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#5405: Feb 3rd 2023 at 5:15:48 AM

So I'm confused does my example for Rukh just need some adjusting to remove the mentions of his Legends counterpart or was it voted that the entry is ineligible?

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#5406: Feb 3rd 2023 at 5:37:45 PM

My vote would be to just cut it.

Most of the entry as you wrote it seemed to be more just complaining about the main characters refusing to kill him as opposed to Rukh himself.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#5407: Feb 5th 2023 at 11:17:35 AM

[up][up]And it better fits They Changed It, Now It Sucks! as it's the changes as opposed to his own merits that are hated, as I've never seen that much hate against him, disappointment and apathy maybe but not the threshold of hate for Scrappydom.

As for Analysis.The Scrappy, I intend to move example of intentionally unlikable tropes to No Sympathy For This Index, adding note that only situations/tropes where it explains why it's unintentional, and examples that only count if done poorly must give common examples of such poor use. Any objections?

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#5408: Feb 5th 2023 at 2:30:16 PM

[up] The Rebels subreddit at least has a lot of hate for him but if you I'm the only one on this site who feels he fits I will stop arguing the point

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 5th 2023 at 5:31:51 AM

worldwidewoomy (Plucky Ensign) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#5409: Feb 7th 2023 at 6:04:07 PM

is there evidence other than the subreddit?

molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#5410: Feb 7th 2023 at 6:12:20 PM

So how come Pepe gets disqualified for only being hated now while a few pages ago people were saying Skyler White doesn't count because she isn't hated anymore and the hate is historical/when the show was being aired? Does a scrappy have to be hated consistently from inception to now and there can never be a time when the character was not hated?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5411: Feb 7th 2023 at 6:18:34 PM

If a scrappy stops being hated, they're Rescued from the Scrappy Heap and no longer get an entry under The Scrappy.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#5412: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:01:21 PM

[up][up]Besides[up], if you're asking if there if was a point in which the character was liked but later became hated, that can happen.

KOman 'Sup? Since: Jul, 2013
'Sup?
#5413: Feb 9th 2023 at 11:19:47 AM

From YMMV.Fire Emblem Fates

  • The Scrappy: Anthony in Revelation. Introduced as a Villager willing to guide the party to Valla's capital, it only takes one chapter to convince everyone besides Corrin that he's not to be trusted, and the very next chapter provides the Captain Obvious Reveal that Anthony is *gasp* a traitor, which amounts to nothing as Corrin had just enough sense to warn the others to take action if they were gone for too long. Anthony is then turned into a generic Faceless and unceremoniously killed off, ultimately having no real impact on the plot besides bringing up Corrin's overly trusting nature without properly condemning it.

Reason for removal:

This Scrappy entry reads less like an examination of a character who got way more negative reception than expected and more like a personal rant about the character, which is a no-no. The entry also doesn't mention the character's reception in the game's home country of Japan; if a character is not hated in their own home country, then it's a case of Americans Hate Tingle.

¿?¡!
ejmenendez Since: May, 2015
#5414: Feb 9th 2023 at 5:53:43 PM

[up] I agree it should be cut. From what is written, I'm not seeing anything about why the character deserves the trope. If anything, this character sounds more like a Hate Sink that serves the purpose of causing trouble for the player and the example sounds more like it's complaining about Corrin's trusting nature. Even that last part sort of contradicts itself since it also explained that Corrin had enough foresight to warn the others just in case, which suggests, to me at least, that Corrin didn't trust him either and it was just that the audience didn't know this yet.

Edited by ejmenendez on Feb 9th 2023 at 5:55:13 AM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#5415: Feb 11th 2023 at 5:27:39 AM

How is this for Paper Mario: Sticker Star

  • The Scrappy: Kersti is widely considered to be the worst partner character in the Paper Mario series as a result of falling into the trap of being an Exposition Fairy who doesn't provide any useful information, in a game with a lot of cryptic mechanics where such a character would be perfect. It doesn't help that Kersti spends the entire game belittling Mario (and by extension the player) for things that aren't his fault.

TantaMonty Since: Aug, 2017
#5416: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:04:18 AM

[up] I haven't played Sticker Star (nor do I intend to), but I have some reservations concerning this entry. Since the first sentence is about how the character fails to fulfill its one gameplay purpose, it doesn't meet the "Hated for narrative reasons" criterion. As for the second sentence, if Kersti's condescendence is meant to annoy the player, it fails to meet the "Unintentionally hated by the audience" criterion.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#5417: Feb 11th 2023 at 1:49:37 PM

This is currently commented out under YMMV.Paper Mario Sticker Star:

  • The Scrappy: If you were to ask a preferably non-overzealous Paper Mario fan who their least favorite character is, chances are they're most likely going to say Kersti. This is due to the fact that she's a jerk most of the time, she never actually helps with puzzles despite being your Exposition Fairy,

Scrappy requires they be hated by fans, but while the Mario series has fans Sticker Star is so disliked by them that those who otherwise like the game yet still disliked Kersti seem too few to count.

There's also this explaining some narrative reasons for her hate.

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Kersti is often portrayed as rude and rash, but it's implied that she is acting that way because she is stressed and/or frustrated because she can't return to the Sticker Comet unless the Royal Stickers are gathered. However, it's shown in the opening cutscene that she did nothing to stop Bowser from splitting the Comet in the first place, with even some Toads trying harder than her, and after the damage is done, the first thing she does is blame and yell at Mario. The whole situation is on her almost as much as it is on Bowser, and combined with the fact that she spends most of her other scenes yelling at Mario or getting him into otherwise-avoided trouble, it's hard to find people who sympathize with her.

She gets a Heroic Sacrifice in the end, but it seems undercut by it not sticking better (something future games rectified) and could be skipped for a more enjoyably difficult final boss.

The issue with Kersti is: 1. Does the hated by fans rule apply to the specific work or to the bigger franchise? 2. Is there a reason to list them under Scrappy when UU can cover the complaints?

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#5418: Feb 11th 2023 at 2:19:31 PM

I'm pretty sure The Scrappy can count in panned-works that are part of a larger franchise. Otherwise, we'd have to cut a lot of entries for characters that come from bad sequels and the like.

I do think Kersti counts, since I generally don't see a lot of people who like her. Most find her constant condescension and passive-aggressive attitude towards Mario (and by extension, the player) to be more annoying than funny, which isn't helped that she's easily the character who has the most amount of dialogue in the game.

WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#5419: Feb 11th 2023 at 5:18:39 PM

I've been meaning to bring this one up here for a while. About a week ago, a troper added Soga, Moyuru and Rapt as an example of The Scrappy for My Hero Academia: Vigilantes, as detailed here:

  • The Scrappy: Soga, Moyuru and Rapt are hated, especially in the West, for attempting to rape Pop and facing no consequences, even later being treated as heroic and close friends with Koichi. Although they went through character development, most fans won't forgive them for being attempted rapists, as Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil.

While their reasons are well-founded, there is one thing that gives me pause; ones of the edits for Fanon Discontinuity, as detailed below:

  • Fanon Discontinuity: Within the series itself, some fans have decided to disregard the initial appearances of Soga, Moyuru and Rapt where, on top of attempting to murder Koichi, they nearly sexually assault Pop before being foiled by Knuckleduster. Even considering their later Heel–Face Turn, the fact that the narrative treats them as Loveable Rogues (they later become Koichi's True Companions, Soga plays a Supporting Leader role to Koichi in the last arc, and Knuckleduster goes so far as to give the trio the responsibility of protecting his hospitalized daughter) has major issues unless their first appearance is ignored outright.

I'm admittedly not that familiar with the Vigilantes fanbase, but the above example of Fanon Discontinuity kind of makes it sound like the characters (or - at the very least - Soga) did gain a fanbase after they were fleshed out more after their first appearance left an incredibly bad first impression, which would - arguably - in effect make The Scrappy edit redundant. Once again, I understand the troper's reason for making this edit - and I'm not too familiar with the fanbase - but I still felt like I should bring this up.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Feb 12th 2023 at 12:19:40 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#5420: Feb 11th 2023 at 6:44:32 PM

Another thing that needs to be considered with manga examples (and often isn't) is how Japan views the characters. I've already tossed Mineta's entry for not taking that into account (while the West hates him for sure, he's decently popular in Japan), and these guys look like they caught heat for similar reasons, so I have my doubts about them counting.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Feb 11th 2023 at 8:45:07 AM

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#5421: Feb 11th 2023 at 8:35:35 PM

I noticed that YMMV.Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Stardust Crusaders lists Iggy as a Replacement Scrappy for Kakyoin.

First of all, Iggy is an extremely popular character. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who actually hates him. While he is a Jerkass, he fulfills that role in a way that's usually entertaining.

Second, he's not even really a replacement for Kakyoin like the example suggests. While Kakyoin does get Put on a Bus shortly after Iggy's introduction, he rejoins the group in time for the story's climax, so there's a period where both are in the team at the same time. And even during the time where Kakyoin isn't there, Iggy's role in the group is completely different from Kakyoin's, so he's clearly not meant to be a substitute.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#5422: Feb 11th 2023 at 9:28:28 PM

[up] Kill it with fire. That's clearly misuse.

[up][up] and [up][up][up] This sounds like clearly they used to be hated, but things changed. Could be Draco in Leather Pants moreso, or even Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, maybe?

Shadow?
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#5423: Feb 11th 2023 at 9:38:56 PM

I removed the Replacement Scrappy example, but I also noticed a Rescued from the Scrappy Heap example about Iggy. The example says that "most fans" hated Iggy at first and only came to like him later on, which I'm not convinced is true. Like I said, I've never really seen anyone hate on him at all, I always thought he was a very popular and beloved character.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#5425: Feb 12th 2023 at 11:05:24 AM

I am biased cause i too am not a fan of the whole game in general, but i presume that if Kersti had her jerkish personalities toned down i would be willing to like her more aside from the game itself, but because of the way she is, i am leaning on a keep.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)

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