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The great Spoiler Tag dilemma

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lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1: Feb 2nd 2013 at 3:11:57 PM

Ever seen a page covered in white blocks? Even the trope names? Time to fix the thing!

Common spoiler tag abuse occurs in:

  • Character descriptions: That actively goes against Spoiler Policy, since no spoiler tags must be present above the example line.
  • Things that happen late in the storyline but are not narratively important to spoiler: The fact that Character X ends up wearing glasses in the final episode, even though he has never worn them before, is not worthy of a spoiler tag.
  • Things that happen too early but are considered twists: The fact that X dies is not a spoiler if it happens five hours into the game.
  • The presence of spoiler tags even if the page is considered unmarked: This one speaks for itself.

This will (hopefully) be a concentrated effort to eliminate gratuitous spoilers.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Feb 2nd 2013 at 3:23:09 PM

Two ideas:

  • Thread needs adding to the directory (regardless of where that thread goes)
  • You might want to add a link in Handling Spoilers to this thread.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#3: Feb 2nd 2013 at 5:09:05 PM

Regarding the fourth point, I'm pretty sure some of the other mods have stated that a page with unmarked spoilers just means they may be unmarked, not that they must be.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#4: Feb 2nd 2013 at 7:34:47 PM

[up]To pick an example, death tropes are often considered unmarked. However, you can still put a spoiler on the victim. Ending spoilers can sometimes be a spoiler only for one particular ending, in which case some spoilering can help.

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troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5: Feb 2nd 2013 at 8:16:50 PM

Things that happen too early but are considered twists: The fact that X dies is not a spoiler if it happens five hours into the game.

Yes it is. Five hours is a long time.

Also, [up][up].

edited 2nd Feb '13 8:17:52 PM by troacctid

Sessalisk from Wheeeeeeeee Since: Sep, 2011
#6: Feb 2nd 2013 at 10:32:26 PM

[up] I think the sentiment is correct, but that was a bad example.

For instance, I once came across an example where someone thought it was necessary to spoiler the fact that the kids in Battle Royale had to kill each other. You know, the thing that happens right at the start of the book and is the whole premise.

edited 2nd Feb '13 10:32:58 PM by Sessalisk

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HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#7: Feb 2nd 2013 at 10:48:33 PM

What about works that have been around forever and adaptation thereof? I'm specifically wondering about spoiler tags on Les Misérables (2012); the book's over 150 years old, and the new film is a very close adaptation (closer, in fact, than the musical that is the direct source material). For instance, nobody in the movie dies in a different way than in the book, and the musical's had a huge Pop-Cultural Osmosis, so are spoilers really called for?

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#8: Feb 2nd 2013 at 10:51:47 PM

Nope. Kinda like all of Shakespeare. Cat's out of the bag, dude.

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lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#9: Feb 3rd 2013 at 12:20:40 AM

No, 5 hours is not a long time. Sophie's death in Tales of Graces happens in the prologue and is a driving force for many characters. Spoiler tagging it is ridiculous, especially since she comes back.

Also, if the page says unmarked spoilers but is filled with white blocks, then we take them out. An entry must not be completely spoiler-tagged ever, unless it's a very big twist. And well, on a twist trope, you have been warned.

Works over 50 years old are spoilers-off, otherwise we should start spoilering how Achilles died.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#10: Feb 3rd 2013 at 12:28:36 AM

50 years isn't actually official, since the off-hand 50-year example from Handling Spoilers doesn't match the rules on Spoilers Off. Now, we can talk about making it official, but it currently isn't.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11: Feb 3rd 2013 at 12:41:36 AM

If a spoiler happened five hours into a film, you'd have already left the theatre three hours ago. It's a long time.

edited 3rd Feb '13 12:42:20 AM by troacctid

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#12: Feb 3rd 2013 at 12:44:25 AM

How about we don't compare apples with oranges? The OP says game. Video games are a time consuming medium. A film obviously has different standards. Five minutes into the film are not a spoiler.

edited 3rd Feb '13 12:45:31 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#13: Feb 3rd 2013 at 10:27:41 AM

People make honest mistakes too. For example, I had someone come by and add spoiler tags to the description of Rainbows End, where it says "Unfortunately, Vaz is the man secretly behind the virus", which does sound like a spoiler if you don't remember that that was revealed to the reader in the middle of the first chapter. When I reminded him via PM, he apologized for the mistake.

As for the hours thing, it might be more sensible to talk about fractions or percentages. I'm not even sure how you'd measure hours for a book, since people have different reading speeds. :)

edited 3rd Feb '13 10:33:21 AM by Xtifr

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Gideoncrawle Elder statesman from Put out to pasture Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Elder statesman
#14: Feb 3rd 2013 at 11:32:39 AM

Regarding the Les Misérables (2012) example, the Spoilers Off page says in pertinent part, "Spoiling specific media adaptations is still frowned upon."

edited 3rd Feb '13 11:32:55 AM by Gideoncrawle

Bigotry in the name of inclusion is still bigotry.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#15: Feb 3rd 2013 at 12:22:06 PM

Spoiler-tagging the name of a work (in a trope list) is common enough to mention on the OP, and it goes against Spoiler Policy too.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#16: Feb 3rd 2013 at 4:57:10 PM

If a spoiler happened five hours into Portal you'd have already beaten the game twice. Even in a longer game like Batman: Arkham Asylum, five hours would be like halfway through. It's not a trivial amount of time.

RoninCatholic Petting Zoo Person Since: Dec, 2010
Petting Zoo Person
#17: Feb 3rd 2013 at 8:10:48 PM

5 hours isn't even a trivial amount of time in my favorite genre, the RPG. Even with level grinding, you've usually made significant headway into the quest by then.

I must be cruel, but to be kind That bad may begin, and worse be left behind
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#18: Feb 4th 2013 at 12:11:31 AM

And five hours into a JRPG are usually the prologue, while five hours into Skyrim and Oblivion are barely enough to cover two quests.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19: Feb 4th 2013 at 12:47:17 AM

If nothing interesting happens in the first five hours, then I think that's pretty clearly the exception, not the rule.

Telcontar In uffish thought from England Since: Feb, 2012
In uffish thought
#20: Feb 4th 2013 at 1:23:53 AM

Can we just say that 5 hours was an estimate, that doesn't work for all media or all games, which was intended to illustrate a point? It can be changed to 5 episodes of a show or 2 hours of a game, but I don't think our current discussion will get us very far. Just use discretion for how dense a work is and where something needs tagging, and if you can reach the point within an amount of time that is short relative to the work length, it shouldn't be tagged.

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Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#21: Feb 4th 2013 at 12:40:16 PM

What's wrong with my suggestion of using percentages or fractions rather than hours? If it happens in the first third (e.g.) it's almost certainly not a spoiler.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#22: Feb 4th 2013 at 12:41:44 PM

Is this a spoiler cleanup or a spoiler policy discussion thread? Because it looked like #1 but seems to be used as #2.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
InsanityPrelude Since: Aug, 2009
#23: Feb 4th 2013 at 4:30:07 PM

The spoiler policy makes sense to me as it is (and can I just say I was a little alarmed when I saw this thread, because I thought spoiler tags were going to be taken away?) But just to put my two cents in anyway, giving a specific number of hours/pages/episodes isn't a great idea for the reasons already mentioned- the length of a work varies. First third or even first quarter seems fair.

I've already been trying to break up large blocks of spoiler tags when I encounter them, and to unspoiler the names of tropes on work pages (alphabetical order tends to give them away, anyway.)

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#24: Feb 4th 2013 at 5:43:05 PM

Spoiler tags are explicitly allowed on trope names on work pages; it's work names that can't be spoilered.

If alphabetic order becomes a problem, the spoiler policy even suggests moving spoilered tropes to a separate section.

edited 4th Feb '13 5:43:59 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#25: Feb 4th 2013 at 7:16:12 PM

Personally, I'd much prefer that spoilered tropes be moved to their own section on the pages.


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