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VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#59101: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:18:49 AM

Kill the evil person and all will suddenly be better? Which is also incredibly unrealistic, might I add.

I probably will be in minority and quickly silenced here, but Reality Is Unrealistic to many people in real world. I can't imagine that millions of people, who suffered under the regime, would instantly go with "okay" and not arise a giant rebellion again, after hearing that all their philosophy was bullshit and all their suffering happened because of insecurity of few people, who still stay bigots. That review here (that was posted couple pages ago), post all my problems with the shows theme completely:

Also, every time any imperfection in the shows writing brought up, we really go in to territory, where people should either praise this show as "flawless masterpiece" or they are condemned as stupid morons, who shouldn't speak. Like i get that many people who scream that Steven Universe is awful thing, that shouldn't exist are jerks with toxic opinions, but there are also many who like the show, but have few problems with its writing and they shouldn't be dismissed.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#59102: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:22:44 AM

Though the possibility that Season 6 will delve into a possible uprising against Steven still exists, especially considering that might explain Spinel's Offscreen Villain Dark Matter and that among others, Aquamarine and maybe Emerald and Holly Blue Agate seemed to enjoy the previous status quo to say the least.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#59103: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:26:07 AM

Here's the thing: You can argue that the Diamonds turning good is "the best scenario" that's realistically possible because they're just too powerful to be defeated by force, detained or punished in any way. But that's an entirely utilitarian, Watsonian answer to a complaint that's more Doylist and thematic in nature. Rebecca Sugar is the person who actually makes the calls for where the story should go, and it's entirely within her power to write a conclusion that involves the Diamonds being defeated for good. The reason that they instead turn good is because she and the other writers chose to go that route, not because it's somehow "impossible" for the story to conclude with them being defeated and deposed.

From a standpoint of in-universe plausibility, I'd also question whether their redemption is really any less contrived than the alternative. I mean, the story could have concluded with Steven poofing White Diamond and keeping her in permanent stasis. Would that have been more contrived than her making a complete 180 on every tyrannical value she's religiously held for thousands of years?

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59104: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:29:21 AM

I think the bigger problem people have is less that the Diamonds ended up being redeemed and more that the show doesn't really treat their actions with the severity that people would expect, given how heinous their on-screen and implied off-screen actions are. The show frames them almost entirely in their relationship with Steven, which like yes the show does in fact revolve around him but it can feel a little myopic.

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#59105: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:35:41 AM

[up] This.

I love this show, but the Diamonds got pretty easily off the hook and forgiven for the sheer atrocities they made, which includes crossing the Moral Event Horizon shamelessly several times.

Truth be told, Spinel's redemption felt much more natural and well-done than the Diamond's.

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#59106: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:37:11 AM

Eeesh, I felt some things were a bit off about the movie but that video puts it into context.

Take away all of the fluff and feel good moments, and the entire situation is extremely fucked up.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#59107: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:37:22 AM

@Very Vile Villain: Eh, I agree that show isn't perfect and there are flaws to execution.(like its very valid criticism that if it wanted to make message easier to believe they shouldn't have had the fascist dictatorship as the metaphorical abusive relatives)

I just question the eagerness to kill them off since sometimes it comes across them wanting cool anime fight scene where villain explodes or something. And even then "realism" wise(since thats one of words people like to use), evil dictators tend to get killed off when rebellion overthrows them, if they somehow peacefully abdicate, people unhappy with them can't usually start witch hunt to kill them without coming across as criminals themselves.

Like, there are lot of dictators that got scott free for stuff they did and without trying to fix bad stuff they did at all <_<

(but yeah, fun fact? Steven Universe isn't actually in my top ten shows. Main reason? I just don't like color scheme that much :P I'm not really defending the show as much as I'm expressing my bafflement at people being pissed about show about emotion and solving problems with talking has that be the main way of resolving conflict instead of anime death scenes. Its as I said, its just as weird as complaining about show being too pink and expecting that to change.)

Another thing that I'm weirded about is the eagerness for murder/executions :p I'm kinda on the pacifistic side anyway, but like, in context of show, Diamonds are abusive relatives. Yeah their framing as fascist dictators is what the actual problem is as abusive relatives, while bad, aren't really as bad as fascist dictators are so you'd think at least they would need to lose their status and wealth and be genuinely regretful while working to fix what they have done. But since show cares more about their role as relatives, that won't happen.

Edited by SpookyMask on Sep 8th 2019 at 9:43:48 PM

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#59108: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:42:01 AM

Dictators who get deposed in real life don't have a great track record of getting off "scott free". At best, they tend to be exiled and have to live out their days with no remaining power. At worst, they tend to be violently killed.

Honestly, the former might have been the better conclusion for the Diamonds: For them to just be totally stripped of political authority and forced to spend their days contemplating their actions and maybe getting a hint of an eventual, far-off happy ending with them learning to appreciate each other as friends and family outside of the now-toppled hierarchial system they built.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#59109: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:43:19 AM

I think the general problem is that show presents a complicated situation, but has no real answer to it.

You can say "the evil empire dictatorship is defeated" is simple and easy, but it's an answer at least. Not a very thoughtful one, and very childish, but it is an answer.

Like...I don't really see how the show can address this situation without opening an even bigger can of worms, which is why a lot that is just kind of swept under the rug.

Like, I like the show for what it does and how it addresses the emotional issues of the characters, but it doesn't really explore the consequences of said emotional issues either.

Pink Diamond/Rose gets it the worst because since she's not around anymore; her emotional issues can't even be addressed, so all of her actions just make her look like a terrible, terrible person.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 8th 2019 at 2:44:32 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59111: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:47:27 AM

All the show does is explore the consequences of the emotional issues Rose left behind.

Edited by Bocaj on Sep 8th 2019 at 2:47:43 PM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#59112: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:48:48 AM

> So tiresome.

aye

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#59113: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:49:03 AM

I'm talking about Rose herself.

[up][up][up] You're more than welcome to leave.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 8th 2019 at 2:49:12 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#59114: Sep 8th 2019 at 11:49:12 AM

Ah, I got [nja] while editing my last post. I pretty much agreed what you said about what would be the better "idealistic" end for fascist dictators, but the show's narrative doesn't treat them as such which is the problem. Because again, they are supposed to be metaphor for another thing which is way less worse.(it might work if diamonds were such fantastic space dictators that you couldn't connect them to humans, but gems with all their weird alien parts are STILL very human)

(like, having dragon as metaphor for greed or evil itself or whatever is much easier example to redeem because dragons aren't as easily connected to humans as gems are :P And even then judging by dragon prince thread, people can do that. But yeah, generally more fantastic the metaphor is, less likely people are to be like "wait, I don't buy this". Like if alien hivemind gets redeemed, they kind of are thought of as more force of nature than a person so people buy it more easily)

Anyhoo on semantics, I'd like to point out I didn't say "deposed" dictator, I said one who peacefully gives up their position for reformation. Which is really rare in real life or non existant, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is at least one weird example somewhere.

Edited by SpookyMask on Sep 8th 2019 at 9:51:26 PM

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#59115: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:02:04 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Well too bad, that's where we are now.

TBH, this entire discussion makes me want an arc where a race that survived having their planet conquered comes back for revenge against the Diamonds, with weapons and machinery that can actually hurt them, having the Diamonds face more consequences than just an irritated Steven telling them to fix the shit they broke and maybe even putting their lives on the line as well.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59116: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:05:55 PM

Honestly, the former might have been the better conclusion for the Diamonds: For them to just be totally stripped of political authority and forced to spend their days contemplating their actions and maybe getting a hint of an eventual, far-off happy ending with them learning to appreciate each other as friends and family outside of the now-toppled hierarchial system they built.

This is something that I thought might happen before, actually.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 8th 2019 at 3:09:10 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#59117: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:10:32 PM

Should I watch this show, especially considering my distaste for Cartoon Network’s newer stuff in the 2010s?

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 8th 2019 at 12:11:03 PM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#59118: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:11:29 PM

I suppose people who think that the Diamonds, while certainly trying to become better people, haven’t really been made to answer for their larger actions DO have a point.

That said, this show has never really been especially vengeful towards its antagonists, for better or for worse. I suppose it would be nice to see them deal with such things in the future, but while I can see some issues with all of this, I think I’m overall satisfied with how these things are handled.

[up] Well, that depends - what do you dislike about their newer stuff?

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Sep 8th 2019 at 3:13:05 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59119: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:12:50 PM

If they haven't done enough to atone yet, and they haven't, they're going to continue to be around for thousands of years.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#59120: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:14:59 PM

[up][up]Stupidity, lack of coherence.

I, erm, wasn’t around for the abomination that masquerades as a teen titans show or for Adventure Time.

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 8th 2019 at 12:17:26 PM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#59121: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:16:23 PM

That’s a bit general - I think some more detail would be appreciated.

I will say that I wouldn’t apply either of those to Steven Universe, though I suppose it takes a bit to properly come into its own.

Oh God! Natural light!
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#59122: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:25:11 PM

I kinda find it funny that more often than not it feels like on this site whenever someone is like "I'm sure I'm at minority and everyone will yell at me and flame me and silence my post" the response tends to be more of "Eeeeh, I agree on parts"(and varieties of that) tongue

But yeah, I do like this show well enough, but I'm more into adventure action shows than slice of life show with sometimes action. Like Steven Universe kinda baits and switches by starting out as monster of the week show but after season one shifting away from that completely [lol]

And I do appreciate the more pacifistic themes of the show. Which is again why the cry for execution stuff disturbs me, I don't really like the "pacifism is dumb" stances tongue

I kinda end up in "Eh, I don't have strong opinion on this matter" regarding of whether Diamonds should have been dictatorship for purpose of show's message. Like I don't think its bad idea that wouldn't have worked(and I think it worked well enough for context of show being kid show with good animation and presentation), but perhaps the pacing was off and it should have been longer arc. Like only thing I can say is that its true show would have had easier time with it if diamonds WERE just abusive relatives to Steven's mom instead of space dictators as well.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#59123: Sep 8th 2019 at 12:38:06 PM

I'm sure its because people are aware how...obnoxious the worse fans can be about this show, especially on other sites.

I actually LIKE the series, but that doesn't mean I find it perfect or without criticism that I feel I need to address

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#59124: Sep 8th 2019 at 1:25:26 PM

I finally did watch that review posted on this page (and also a few pages earlier) and I do see where he's coming from but the only thing I really agree with is his thoughts on Steg. Cuz uh. Steg personally made me really uncomfortable with how much he was sexualized and how his effect on Pearl was shown.... yikes.... I know a lot of people seemed to like him but I would be very happy if he never showed up again. :/

I agree that the movie didn't technically need to exist and it basically serves as a retread of the show as a whole, but IMO that's what most of the movies-based-on-shows I've seen tended to be. Just reencapsulations of the whole show. So it didn't bother me all that much.

I get where he's coming from with the problems with Spinel's ending and how it feels like she should have had Pearl's arc of learning to be her own person instead of the arc she ultimately got but... I dunno, I kind of felt like Spinel's main issue was that she had issues with forming healthy relationships at all? So I felt like her being able to start over and work on forming healthier friendships (since her friendship with Pink even before she left her for 6000 years was pretty evidently not healthy and pretty one-sided). It's just. kinda not great that it was with the Diamonds, of all people. That I'll agree with. Maybe it could have instead ended with Spinel settling in New Homeworld and finding other Gems there to hang out with?

Also the thing he brings up about how the movie seems to direct the fandom's ire towards Pink while letting the other Diamonds off scot-free despite the fact that Pink's atrocities were nothing compared to the other Diamonds'... again, I see where he's coming from. (I mean, I've certainly seen a lot of hot takes on how Pink Diamond is Actually Terrible.) But I don't know how much of that is the fault of the movie. What Pink did was well before she went to Earth and actually started her whole reformation arc and treating other Gems as equals so honestly, this isn't even out of character for the type of person she was before all of that. And honestly, I kind of liked that the movie showed Pink in such an unambiguously negative light? All of Rose's other not-so-stellar actions have always been kind of explained or justified enough to make them grey-ish rather than altogether awful (for instance, I remember being a little disappointed that Pink's human zoo was explained away as being Blue's fault, actually, and Pink had absolutely nothing to do with it) so it was a nice change of pace to show ramifications of one of Pink's actions and let it be shown as unambiguously terrible. I dig it, to me it only serves to make Pink more interesting and complex. I'm also not convinced that there won't be any sort of exploration of the ramifications of the other Diamonds' past actions.

It feels like a lot of the video was talking about issues with the Diamonds' redemption. Which, while I don't have strong enough opinions to either defend or attack the redemption, it just doesn't feel all that relevant to the movie as a whole, anyway.

But hey, that brings me back to the actual topic that this thread is talking about right now, so I'll just use that as a nice segue. Re: the Diamonds' redemption: I still think White's redemption was rushed, and maybe making them abdicate their positions of power might have been a better choice, and yeah, it is weird that the consequences of their previous actions are just glossed over. But I'm not convinced that they'll stay glossed over. So honestly, I'm at a very "wait and see" position with their redemption. Maybe, just like how the whole show so far has shown so much of the ramifications of Rose's actions, we might see some Gems crop up who were affected by the Diamonds and so there are consequences that the Crystal Gems have to deal with. We might see Gems who are still angry at the Diamonds because, even though yeah, they have changed, that doesn't erase the consequences of their previous actions. (Which could lead nicely into a message of, just because someone who has hurt who in the past has turned over a new leaf, doesn't mean you have to insta-forgive them. Or something like that.) I don't know. If the show had ended with "Change Your Mind" I'd definitely have more issues with their redemption, but as it stands, what with there being more episodes to come, I don't know how much I can judge how well their redemption was handled since it seems to me it's not exactly done being explored yet. Maybe that's just me being overly optimistic or giving the show too much credit. That is very possible, SU is definitely one of my favorite shows so that could easily be biasing me, haha. But yeah, basically, I'm not gonna defend or attack the choice to redeem the Diamonds, I'm just gonna wait and see what is done with it.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#59125: Sep 8th 2019 at 1:44:34 PM

I will say that I wouldn’t apply [Stupidity, lack of coherence] to Steven Universe, though I suppose it takes a bit to properly come into its own.
Yeah. My roommate's started watching SU and he's got mixed feelings on whether he likes it or not, but he's still about 6 or 7 eps in last I saw.

As for stupidity and lack of coherence, I'll agree they aren't applicable to Steven Universe. The show is very coherent to the point that big reveals are foreshadowed very early on if you know what to look for. Hell, first episode or so you use Garnet, at that point not known to be a fusion, open her room with two gems instead of one.


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