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thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#58001: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:03:07 AM

"it's entirely up to the wronged party to decide whether or not you get a second chance."

I mean it depends of the degreee of the infraction.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#58002: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:09:54 AM

I agree that whether you're forgiven or not is up to the person you wronged. That being said, whether you're forgiven and whether you're redeemed aren't the same thing.

A murderer who has reformed and gone on to save a hundred people still has no right to demand that the family of their old victim forgives them, but whether they forgive them or not has nothing to do with whether they're actually a better person now.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#58003: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:19:01 AM

One of the things that i've learned in the lasr few years is that our built-in sense of what's "realistic" sometimes has more to do with what's emotionally satisfying or interesting than what's actually real.

In that regard some people IRL really are just so awful you have trouble wrapping your head around it. Not necessarily that they are cartoon characters who were born in a vat of pure evil or who don't have reasons to become who they did, it's just that those reasons won't necessarily make them more sympathetic.

I admire the purity of SU's mindset but I also think that what the diamonds have done is genuinely unforgivable, what with being colonizers who have presumably taken thousands of lives and destroyed countless worlds. I don't mind if steven cares about them since they are, in a way, his family, nor do i mind that the show tried to humanize them, but i kinda feel like the sheer weight of how awful the diamonds were has kinda not been acknowledged properly.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#58004: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:21:13 AM

Sugar once said in an interview that the entire idea of characters like the Diamonds being redeemable is a fantasy for her because there's so many people out there who just are plain evil with no further substance to them.

Which is honestly one of the most cynical and bleak things I've ever heard from a children's show creator.

Edited by LeGarcon on Jan 27th 2019 at 1:21:38 PM

Oh really when?
J79 Since: Jan, 2015
#58005: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:50:53 AM

So do you think we'll see a new intro next season or should they just stick with the current one?

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#58006: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:54:30 AM

Given literally everyone has changed appearances and we have three more central characters in the cast, I feel its only natural.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#58007: Jan 27th 2019 at 10:56:55 AM

Yeah, a new intro is in order. Fans have been asking for one since Peridot, and after the closing beach scene of Change Your Mind, there's really no excuse any more not to reveamp the intro.

Shame Jasper's probably not gonna make the cut if it happens, tho.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#58008: Jan 27th 2019 at 11:01:18 AM

the season and movie aren't out yet and we don't know anything of substance about
As far as stated authorial intent, Sugar's attitude while planning seasons four and five (then still "season three") was along the lines of "This will be something very climactic and change a lot, but I'm fine with making more". If that's a Post-Script Season doesn't depend on on what that "more" turns out to be, but on how you parse the trope.

Which is honestly one of the most cynical and bleak things I've ever heard from a children's show creator.
Did she actually say that, though? I remember nothing like that.

So do you think we'll see a new intro next season or should they just stick with the current one?
As Ian Jones-Quartey pointed out, they only made a second opening because they could us animation from one of the shorts, so it's unlikely to happen again.

Edited by thatother1dude on Jan 27th 2019 at 1:02:32 PM

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#58009: Jan 27th 2019 at 11:07:40 AM

I mean... There could be more shorts next season.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jan 27th 2019 at 2:07:54 PM

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#58010: Jan 27th 2019 at 12:24:53 PM

Which is honestly one of the most cynical and bleak things I've ever heard from a children's show creator.

It's quite fascinating, isn't it?

Personally, I don't like the idea of redeeming more than just getting some form of sympathy out of a villain in fiction.

It just depends really.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Nouct over the front from an east coast Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
over the front
#58011: Jan 27th 2019 at 12:50:17 PM

Did she actually say that, though? I remember nothing like that.

It's from this Rolling Stone article, last paragraph.

Steven is successful at protecting Earth not through the use of his powers or through muscle, but by following many of the simplest rules of a kindergarten class: listen to others when they’re talking, try to be helpful, share your snacks. It’s part of what Rebecca Sugar and Steven have in common – why the show is so relentlessly positive, and so willing to welcome fans with open arms. And it’s why, when asked if anyone on Steven Universe is truly evil, she takes a breath and pauses before answering: “It’s a fantasy show,” she says. “I think it’s a fantasy that no one is truly evil. I don’t know if that’s true in reality, but it’s certainly true in my fantasy. Why wouldn’t it be?”

Edited by Nouct on Jan 27th 2019 at 12:50:34 PM

alanh Since: May, 2010
#58012: Jan 27th 2019 at 1:14:36 PM

It's also possible they did the scene at the beach so that it could be reused in a new opening.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#58013: Jan 27th 2019 at 1:16:34 PM

[up][up]I do remember that article now, but that's still a pretty serious misquotation.

Edited by thatother1dude on Jan 27th 2019 at 3:18:16 AM

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#58014: Jan 27th 2019 at 1:29:33 PM

[up]Eh, not in spirit.

She's right though. Exhibit A: the Orange Cheeto. Exhibit B: Kitsch Mc Turtle. Exhibit C: Lyin' Ted. Exhibit D: Killer Miller.

Compared to these barren wastelands of inhuman callousness and relentless cruelty, even Hitler had one small tiny redeeming trait: he promoted animal rights and really, genuinely loved dogs.

More prosaically, a lot of people with Antisocial Personality Disorder are relentless sources of harm who never do any good except as a manipulation ploy. I've lived with some, dated some, I know petty, banal, day to day, relentless malignancy very intimately. Evil people, such that we'd all be better off uf they're dead, are real.

Edited by Oruka on Jan 27th 2019 at 1:33:04 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#58015: Jan 27th 2019 at 1:34:27 PM

[up]Might be going a little farther there than you should...

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#58016: Jan 27th 2019 at 1:55:59 PM

Eh, not in spirit.
Yes, it is.

The claimed statement was "there's so many people out there who just are plain evil with no further substance to them", which was described as "cynical and bleak".

Sugar's actual sentiment was "I don't know if there are people who are truly evil." That isn't cynical at all.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#58017: Jan 27th 2019 at 2:19:23 PM

"I think it’s a fantasy that no one is truly evil. I don’t know if that’s true in reality"

She doesn't know that it's a fantasy that no one is truly evil, but she thinks it's a fantasy.

She believes there are truly evil people, she just doesn't know for sure.

[up][up]To clarify, I'm not implying that anyone should kill them. That's cutting off your nose to spite your eye, or however that phrase goes. What I'm saying is that they're the type of people that, when they die, people show up to their funeral just to make sure they're really gone. Where everyone sighs in relief, released from the anxiety that they might ever have to deal with them again. Relatives, intimate partners, and coworkers especially.

As for actively taking action, these malevolent fucks would need to be contained and cordoned out of society, not by repressive or violent action, but through shunning, exclusion, and discouragement. If they can be persuaded to go full hermit and keep their shitty selves to themselves, while still remaining productive and useful members of society that'd be great. A lot of them are actually good at their jobs and such, why throw that away?

Edited by Oruka on Jan 27th 2019 at 2:20:47 AM

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#58018: Jan 27th 2019 at 2:23:00 PM

One of the things that i've learned in the lasr few years is that our built-in sense of what's "realistic" sometimes has more to do with what's emotionally satisfying or interesting than what's actually real.

In that regard some people IRL really are just so awful you have trouble wrapping your head around it. Not necessarily that they are cartoon characters who were born in a vat of pure evil or who don't have reasons to become who they did, it's just that those reasons won't necessarily make them more sympathetic.

I think people are confusing depth with "realism". Sometimes it seems like people assume any villain that doesn't have a Freudian Excuse or a Morality Pet to take the edge off them is a flat character. When, in real life a lot of people's reasons for the bad things they do aren't necessarilly tragic or sympathetic or even complex. They can be weird, funny, boring, or even just completely irrational.

Like we can make any dumb excuse to start a war just because someone was bored and/or selfish, and wanted to stir things up.

And sometimes people are just so distanced and detached from the people they're hurting they're not even aware what they did to them was wrong until something extreme or tragic disrupts their world view. I think that was what they were going for with Yellow and Blue here.

Edited by xanderiskander on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:55:59 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58019: Jan 27th 2019 at 2:24:28 PM

It sounds more like she's taking a pragmatically agnostic approach to the real world than active cynicism. If her show is fantastical then she can make it as idealistic as she wants. The real world probably doesn't reflect that rather high level of idealism, but that doesn't necessarily indicate her taking a position of extreme cynicism either.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 27th 2019 at 5:27:12 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#58020: Jan 27th 2019 at 8:27:14 PM

Huh, I just realized that if Change Your Mind would have been the series finale, then Peridot would have never fused with anyone.

Lapis and Bismuth too, I guess, but it wasn't really a big thing with them like it was with her.

I wonder if that's going to happen in the movie or season 6.

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#58021: Jan 27th 2019 at 8:58:27 PM

Lapis has Malachite, not that that wouldn't be depressing in its own right.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#58022: Jan 28th 2019 at 1:59:44 AM

Steven Universe was conceptualized a while ago, and most of the major plot twists and plot points have been set in stone before the show even got off the ground, like Garnet being a fusion and Rose being Pink. Things like the Diamonds getting redeemed, I'm sure, have been part of the story since before Blue or Yellow even made their first appearances.

I literally just now came to the belief that this reaction to Steven Universe is 100% because of the current political climate. People projected their feelings about recent political events onto the show, a show that was thoroughly plotted out before those recent political events happened. Suddenly, it's bad to write villains as having depth and feelings, because that's not what people were seeing with Real Life villains.

In a better alternate reality where Trump didn't get elected, Steven Universe probably went almost the exact same, and Change Your Mind had a much less controversial reception.

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#58023: Jan 28th 2019 at 2:22:39 AM

[up] I've had the same belief regarding why "Gem Harvest" (and Andy) was so poorly received upon airing.

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#58024: Jan 28th 2019 at 2:48:00 AM

I doubt all of the complaints about Change Your Mind would dissipate, given that a lot of my issues (and others') with the Diamonds' redemptions have to do with the rushed pacing, especially since White Diamond was formally introduced so late. At least Yellow and Blue had sufficient establishment beforehand that one could chart the logical progression of their Heel–Face Turn, abrupt as it occurred.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 28th 2019 at 5:49:35 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#58025: Jan 28th 2019 at 3:22:54 AM

[up][up]Yeah, I'm sure when Gem Harvest was written, it was meant to be a nice little story about meeting and tolerating conservative relatives, even helping them understand who you are more.

And then it came out in one of the most divided years in politics, where people were learning en masse the kinds of horrible things their conservative relatives truly believed, and suddenly the hate against uncle Andy was massively disproportionate to his on-screen actions and words. Surprise at a birthday cake covered with all genders of people and annoyance at strangers living in his barn was exaggerated into him being a Trump supporting violent racist and homophobe, because that's what people expected and wanted from the character: an easy strawman to vent their anger at.

No wonder Andy's conservatism was downplayed hard in all subsequent appearances.

Same goes for the Diamonds. Before the last two years, I doubt the fandom narrative around them would be "fascist genocidal dictators who should die just like all dictators". I think the intended perception was closer to "Physical God evil alien queens who need to learn the value of friendship and self-love so they can learn to not be so evil".


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