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GlitterCat Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
#53651: Mar 31st 2018 at 6:55:28 PM

You don't have to be snippy and say "it's on you, not the show."

I never said whether or not I thought there was a good reason behind Pink's shattering only that it is technically murder to kill another person, no matter how evil said person is. (Nor did I say that the show never provided any context for why the murder went down).

All I'm saying is an Asshole Victim can still be a murder victim. Some people may not want Rose to have delivered the killing blow, even if the show gives her valid reasons to oppose Pink. It's fine for people to have different feelings about Rose and Pink's shattering.

That we're even having a discussion like this implies the show has created a complex narrative and situations where there may be no easy, 'good' decisions and sometimes a 'good' person might do something terrible. So please don't talk down to me in the future, I do pay attention to the story.

edited 31st Mar '18 7:15:48 PM by GlitterCat

see my completed Tangled (Varian) fanfic collection! https://archiveofourown.org/works/24467056/chapters/59049532
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53652: Mar 31st 2018 at 6:58:45 PM

The definition of murder isn't just any killing that isn't in self-defense. Murder, legally, is an unlawful killing. Which I suppose you could say killing Pink was though the rule of law meant very little during the war, for very obvious reasons.

More to the point the actual legality of it isn't why people care. Murder is a much more emotionally loaded term than that, and people use it all the time in cases where it really doesn't apply.

And since you're the one who brought up it offending people's morality, and yet are claiming it isn't a moral judgement, I'm left to believe hat you're being deliberately obtuse.

edited 31st Mar '18 7:01:42 PM by LSBK

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#53653: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:06:29 PM

It makes them an Asshole Victim but still a murder victim.
Asshole Victim applies specifically to unsympathetic characters killed for unsympathetic reasons. Every evil character who is killed by someone else is not an Asshole Victim.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#53654: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:11:44 PM

I thought Asshole Victim only needed the unsympathetic murder victim. Most of the time they are killed for sympathetic reasons. If nothign else that'd wipe out any Detective Conan entry in that trope.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53655: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:13:44 PM

Yeah, the Asshole Victim who is someone is killed for something unrelated to their assholery, something that if they weren't a dick would actually make you feel for them. In any case, that still doesn't apply to Pink Diamond.

GlitterCat Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
#53656: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:21:59 PM

Well I'm sorry that I misunderstood the trope. I really did think it just needed an asshole character to be killed.

I also did not mean for murder to be an emotionally charged term. Perhaps it would be better if I just called it the death of Pink (which is still something people might not want Rose involved in because it's immoral, illegal, absolute, etc.) If you want Rose to have shattered her, that's fine too.

see my completed Tangled (Varian) fanfic collection! https://archiveofourown.org/works/24467056/chapters/59049532
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#53657: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:27:27 PM

Given what we know, "assassination" would probably be the closest term, unless Pink was killed on the field of battle, which everything suggests she wasn't.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#53658: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:40:29 PM

Most of the time they are killed for sympathetic reasons.
By "unsympathetic" I meant "not morally justified/heroic". A lot of Detective Conan culprits are Sympathetic Murderers, but not Justified Criminals.

Basically, though the character is sympathetic, the act of murder was definitely a bad thing.

the Asshole Victim is someone who is killed for something unrelated to their assholery,
I'm not sure if it has to be irrelevant, though.

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#53659: Mar 31st 2018 at 7:43:47 PM

I do think that a fair number of people are too quick to go "Rebecca Sugar said there are no villains!" or anything like that in an attempt to whitewash the wrongdoings of characters.

If I recall correctly, the full quote (I don't have it on hand, so I may be talking out of my ass) was that there would be no daily villains showing up to be foiled- the Crystal Gems were never going to have to roll out and battle the forces of Cobra once an episode.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#53660: Mar 31st 2018 at 9:18:35 PM

@53654 Yeah, does have to be irrelevant. If it were relevant, it would fall under Laser-Guided Karma or Pay Evil unto Evil (depending on just how relevant it is).

Personally, I don't have a problem saying that Rose Quartz murdered Pink Diamond, because the deliberate act of killing someone in a war setting seems like a strange hair to split. Moreover, I don't think it means that Rose is any less of a moral character - in fact, I think the way she was shown to wrestle with that decision makes her very fascinating. That said, I do see why other people might find that distinction worth hashing out.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#53661: Mar 31st 2018 at 9:35:34 PM

This is a thing I made.

And yeah I think what Rose did to Pink qualifies as an assassination. Which is still a form of murder IIRC.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Gabo352 Since: Jun, 2016
#53662: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:04:51 AM

I think the problem here is that murder is considered a bad thing, which is problematic, because many people consider that bad things = things that shouldn't be done, which is counter-productive in an scenario where murdering the leader of the opposing force was the best option for, well, not the crystal gems, but the earth.

Like [up][up] said, that Rose struggled with that descision shows that it isn't something that was made on a whim, nor something that she would normally do.

edited 1st Apr '18 7:06:52 AM by Gabo352

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53663: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:30:40 AM

Garnet needs Random...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#53664: Apr 1st 2018 at 8:13:13 AM

I'm going to wait until the full reveal of events before I make any judgement calls here.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#53665: Apr 1st 2018 at 9:35:16 AM

Cartoon network UK is releasing older episodes for free on Youtube

Not a joke I promise

link

edited 1st Apr '18 9:45:36 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#53666: Apr 1st 2018 at 10:08:53 AM

But they're only watchable for viewers in the UK.

(The same applies to episodes of Ivandoe.)

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#53667: Apr 1st 2018 at 10:20:35 AM

I suspect they're doing this to counter the rampant piracy on youtube,or they're just being nice

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#53668: Apr 1st 2018 at 10:50:10 AM

Also, Rose's sword was incapable of shattering gems, so unless she had a secret weapon hidden somehow, it was definitely someone or something else.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53669: Apr 1st 2018 at 10:51:30 AM

Seriously, why do people keep mention that sword as if it's an entirely new piece of information that only they know?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#53670: Apr 1st 2018 at 11:04:52 AM

..Little harsh don't you think?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53671: Apr 1st 2018 at 11:07:16 AM

Eh, maybe I snapped a bit, but my point was that while the sword needs to be addressed, it's also something the show has specifically pointed out to us. But a lot of people keep acting as if they're the first person to notice it, or as if confirms anything, when it does not.

edited 1st Apr '18 11:08:24 AM by LSBK

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#53672: Apr 1st 2018 at 11:24:40 AM

For all we know, Rose was physically capable of shattering Pink Diamond's gem with/on any miscellaneous objects or even between her bare hands.

That her sword couldn't shattered gems only became relevant when characters started describing otherwise while recounting Pink Diamond's death.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#53673: Apr 1st 2018 at 11:34:00 AM

That and when Bismuth mentioned it shortly before we learned Rose shattered Pink. It's probably been the biggest piece of "it might not have been her after all" evidence out there.

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#53674: Apr 1st 2018 at 12:00:01 PM

I suspect they're doing this to counter the rampant piracy on youtube,or they're just being nice
That and they probably make some semi-decent ad money off their other videos too so, it's just common sense to monetize something people are already searching for. At least this way the search results are going to a mainstream source to watch it.

edited 1st Apr '18 12:02:40 PM by xanderiskander

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#53675: Apr 1st 2018 at 12:32:26 PM

I can't wait for them to make all the seasons available so I can support the show further,right now they're up to Bubbled

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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