Okay, if you don't think Steven is groundbreaking then what other male protagonists can you think of that cover the same ground? The closest I can think of is Aang, but even he is a warrior whose journey involves becoming a better warrior while the healing goes to a girl. Sure, he doesn't kill Ozai, but he still had to beat him in combat.
Does anyone actually read these?Being the healer was hardly Katara's primary role, and males being healers isn't unheard of. And a part of Steven's arc undeniably is becoming a great (or at least competent) warrior/fighter.
That's the rub for me, though, In situations like this it's always hard for me to think up answers to this question on the fly, they just end up coming to me randomly later when I think about other things.
Though I also have issues with the term "groundbreaking" in general so maybe that's why I wouldn't apply it to Steven.
edited 29th Oct '17 12:52:49 PM by LSBK
Steven is groundbreaking, because of the whole generation of little boys who will grow up with a new template of masculinity. We've never had a character quite like Steven before especially for little boys. I mean one good thing about growing up as a girl is I had all sort of role models that subvert the social mold for women, but men often don't get that luxury. Which is said since a lot of men tie their self worth directly to how much they fit that mold.
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Yeah, Aang is the closest thing we get to this that I can think of.
edited 29th Oct '17 12:53:44 PM by iamthecircle
- Quite a few characters from Hey Arnold! definitely. Especially the main one.
- Peter Parker in Spiderman. Any incarnation.
- Izuku and from My Hero Academia is a male character who has some sensitive moments and confidence issues he has to overcome. I'd argue iida, and Todoroki count also
- Yugo and Tristepin in Wakfu
- You mention Aang, but don't mention Zuko. The prince of the fire nation is all about struggling with his identity and teenage angst.
- Fievel in An American Tail maybe? Or is he too young to count?
- Bart and Nelson in The Simpsons have their moments.
Honestly I feel like the main reason it seems like boys aren't allowed to be sensitive and have complicated problems to deal with in cartoons is just because western cartoons, in general, were stereotyped as zany comedies for kids for a long time. They weren't really allowed to be dramas for the most part, and when they were it usually focused on adults, like Batman TAS and Gargoyles. That's been starting to break down though. I think because a lot of cartoon creators mention they were inspired by The Simpsons and Anime.
edited 29th Oct '17 1:40:53 PM by xanderiskander
I mean, I definitely think that Steven was designed to be a male, child character who is open about his emotions, and that is important, but he's not entirely breaking the mold there. Like
pointed out, other male characters of similar age can and have had that as a facet of their personality, even if it might not be the point of their character like with Steven.
edited 29th Oct '17 1:38:51 PM by LSBK
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He's not groundbreaking because he's got emotions and problems, which every main character in existence has outside of blatant power fantasies. He's groundbreaking because he is defined by being emotional, empathetic, and a healer willing to cry in a series full of violence and kicking butt. None of those examples match that just because Peter Parker gets bullied and angsts over the deaths of loved ones and Bart isn't a bratty troublemaker 24/7. (Well, I haven't seen Wakfu but I know none of the others do.)
Speaking of which, I really love how much the show seems to value emotional intelligence. Feels like that's not seen as being very important in other action-oriented shows, but here Steven's emotional intelligence that solves problems as much as or even more than punching does. I like that.
When we're done, there won't be anything left.![]()
I would definitely say that Izuku and the various characters of Hey Arnold match what you just described.
Though My Hero Academia is pretty new and people tend to talk about it as groundbreaking too (in execution, if not ideas) and Hey Arnold is a 90s cartoon so...
And why are you putting so much emphasis on being a healer? Healing is even Steven's main thing and a male character having healing powers also isn't something revolutionary.
edited 29th Oct '17 1:51:03 PM by LSBK
I can hear an argument for Arnold from Hey!Arnold but I'm not so sure about the others. It's one thing to not be a traditionally masculine hero, and another to be a hero who is heroic specifically because of the traits that aren't considered/valued in concepts of masculinity. And honestly the lack of confidence over masculinity is a well worn trope. You see it in Peter Parker and Zuko. But Steven never has those insecurities. He never feels like he doesn't know how to be a man, because he doesn't see his supposed lack of masculinity as invalid.
And the healer things is a big deal, because of how often it is coded to be feminine. Yes, of course, you can find examples of male healers I'm sure, but Steven is the hero protagonist with most support tactics. He's not the biggest hitter and the best at punching things.You don't find that interesting, subversive, and compelling?
edited 29th Oct '17 1:55:28 PM by iamthecircle
Thrice-Radiant Misho. To a lessor extent Yuno Scrya. Both characters I love. More than Steven. You can say similar stuff about Ikari Shinji or Syaorun (Sp?). What about McCoy? Speaking of shied-bearers, how about Captain America?
Steven is unusual, but there are many characters with at least some similarities. I agree that calling him "groundbreaking" is probably an overreaction.
EDIT: And yeah, "healing" is hardly a major trait of Steven's. For significant parts of the series, he hasn't even had access to it.
edited 29th Oct '17 1:55:28 PM by Sereg
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Deku solves his problems with violence. He's emotional, but he uses that as a catalyst to fight better. Recently, his empathetic action of encouraging Eri resulted in an upgrade to his ability to kick ass, because being able to kick ass is his method and his goal. It's shown that empathy and being a good person are important to being a pro hero, but what Deku needs to work on and what he's always shown working on is mastering his powers to fight stuff.
Arnold doesn't cry and isn't emotional. He's a peacemaker who always helps out with a level head, but he doesn't have an ounce of Steven's vulnerability. I dunno what other characters you're talking about, except maybe for Eugene, The Chew Toy whose femininity is used as a joke.
And Steven is a healer, emotionally and physically. His entire thing is reaching out to others, being kind and nurturing and helpful in a way that is usually seen near-exclusively with female characters. It's not just about powers.
Could you please explain why you think those characters fit, because honestly I'm not seeing it at all.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:02:28 PM by IniuriaTalis
Does anyone actually read these?- The whole deal with his parents aside. Arnold is all about empathy. Characters in the show are constantly telling him how being so much of an compassionate All-Loving Hero he is is going to get him hurt, until he proves them wrong.
- Zuko's whole arc is about learning to empathize with people he was raised to consider his enemies, and learning to use his powers defensively instead of for destruction.
- Izuku's character is all about struggling wtih inadequacy, and how he puts other people before himself. He builds up other people just as much as he builds up himself.
- On Peter Parker. Just because you don't consider being a nerd a non-masculine trait anymore, doesn't mean at the time it wasn't treated as such. I'm sure he's had other moments as well besides the bullying, but I don't really read the comics out now.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:01:29 PM by xanderiskander
I have to point out that the healing power was introduced as being through tears in his mother, but for him (until the thing with Lars) was channeled through his saliva. They changed it from something typically "feminine" in action to something associated, if not with maleness in general, males of Steven's age.
And, no, the protagonist not being biggest hitter and or best a punching things isn't subversive for a story like Steven Universe. It's very much a Coming of Age Story in a lot of ways, and in those the protagonist very often starts out like Steven and works there way up like. That's not to say his journey isn't interesting but it's not just for those reasons. You could say it's interesting because all of the stronger people than him are women in the beginning, but you didn't bring that up.
Steven is a fun, compelling character, as is this show, but I think people often fall into the trap of thinking that just because something isn't overexposed to hell and back, that it's "groundbreaking". There are aspects of this show that I think better fit that label, but this isn't one of them.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:04:59 PM by LSBK
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None of those characters have feminine traits and thrive on these things that are coded as femininity. That's what we're trying to say makes Steven subversive. We've had a dozen nerds can be heroes too characters. Zuko is too different from Steven to really be compared. Yes, there's something interesting and compelling to how his whole arc is him having to overcome the toxic masculinity his father beat into him. But Steven's not about that. He hasn't had to come to terms with emotions or what have you, because he's never thought of his emotions as bad.
Well, duh, it's a Coming of Age and therefore he doesn't start off the strongest. But based on his skills set he will never be the DPS Amethyst has the potential to be for example. And earlier I mentioned the saliva thing. Yes, gross icky boy thing, but really it's deeper than that. Steven has healing kisses! His love is explicitly healing! Something we teach girls to care about from a young age with fairytales. That their love can save people. We do that so rarely with boys.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:05:00 PM by iamthecircle
When they have him kissing people to heal them, I'll go with that. You really shouldn't complain about people being dismissive of you all to do so the same when they say things you don't like. You asked if Steven not being the strongest but the protagonist was subversive. I pointed out why, no, it isn't for the kind of story this is.
And Steven is already abnormally strong. Assuming that he'll never be stronger than Amethyst or Pearl (probably not Garnet, though) actually strikes me as a pretty big leap.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:13:07 PM by LSBK
This is the post that started the discussion:
I think what deutorantagonist is getting at is that Steven is sort of a brilliant refusal of stereotypical masculinity, and to some degree toxic masculinity. He's a deconstruction of a shounen protagonist in some ways. He doesn't fight to be the strongest or the best. He does it to protect the people he loves. Hence why his weapon isn't even a weapon...it's a shield. He has healing love (his magic spit) and super empathy that is usually found in the pink haired shoujo protagonists. He's an embodiment of positive traits we associate with femininity, but is presented as a valid form of masculinity. I LOVE Steven. He's a little annoying at first, but that's because he's supposed to be a kid brother. By this point in the series that we're at now I think he's not only interesting and nuance, but groundbreaking.
The ones saying that he's not special because there are other male protagonists who aren't uberviolent Gary Stus are the ones moving the goalposts.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:12:47 PM by IniuriaTalis
Does anyone actually read these?In my very first post, when I argued my point, I said: "He's an embodiment of positive traits we associate with femininity, but is presented as a valid form of masculinity."
So yes, I did. But honestly, I feel sort of beaten down now. I honestly didn't think my opinion would be so controversial.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:14:41 PM by iamthecircle
No. The Big Guy and The Leader are usually different characters.
Admittedly, the opposite is often dull, but that doesn't make it inherently interesting and unusual.
As for being heroic because of non-masculine traits, compassion is considered feminine and is a common heroic motivation. (It's Steven's too. And as such, is not unusual.)
Misho, for instance, has his compassion as one of the central aspects of his character. His peers tend to consider themselves above mortals, yet he's the one who goes out and acts as a doctor in his spare time, for instance. He is the vulnerable one thinking about emotions when he rejects the advances of a female companion. He is the angster who cries in despair at being unable to help everyone.
Let's look at Yuuno. He is the healer and support member of his team. The girls outpower him and he deals exclusively in support, protection and healing on the battlefield.
Let's look at Negi Springfield, who's maor goal is to travel the world, helping others as part of an NGO. He may not be the best healer in the team, but he taught the best healer in the team. Again, compassion and angst are major parts of his character and big parts of why I like him. He has a more stereotypically shounen friend to contrast with him. He sets out to befriend his greatest enemy and not only does so, his (male) greatest enemy falls in love with him (admittedly, almost everyone does). He's even repeatedly shown to look attractive to bystanders when crossdressing.
But that's not happening.
I'm not saying that Steven is the norm, I'm saying he's not wholly unusual, which is the point of being groundbreaking is it not? Honestly, it kind of seems like you're constructing a straw-man with this.
I will say that it might be "groundbreaking" for a show with a character like Steven as the protagonist to be so popular, but there are many reasons for that, and it's not the same thing as saying that the character of Steven himself is "groundbreaking".
I don't think your opinion is controversial. I'm fairly sure far more people would agree with you than not. I'm just not one of them.
edited 29th Oct '17 2:19:09 PM by LSBK
Honestly, I don't know enough of anime to keep up with y'all's examples of protagonists that are subversive of masculinity. I do feel that for Western action animation Steven is very exceptional. I've never seen a male character that was so celebrated for qualities that are considered feminine and usually reviled in male characters. I do think he's groundbreaking, because of the generation of boys who will have this new template of masculinity that has room to celebrate things that aren't just typically coded masculine traits.

"Deconstruction of what a teenage male should be."
I think what deutorantagonist is getting at is that Steven is sort of a brilliant refusal of stereotypical masculinity, and to some degree toxic masculinity. He's a deconstruction of a shounen protagonist in some ways. He doesn't fight to be the strongest or the best. He does it to protect the people he loves. Hence why his weapon isn't even a weapon...it's a shield. He has healing love (his magic spit) and super empathy that is usually found in the pink haired shoujo protagonists. He's an embodiment of positive traits we associate with femininity, but is presented as a valid form of masculinity. I LOVE Steven. He's a little annoying at first, but that's because he's supposed to be a kid brother. By this point in the series that we're at now I think he's not only interesting and nuance, but groundbreaking.