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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#51251: Jul 19th 2017 at 11:29:44 PM

I'm not really a podcast kind of guy, but for those who do listen to it, can you provide cliffnotes on anything interesting revealed in them?

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#51252: Jul 19th 2017 at 11:37:45 PM

IMO, poofing provides a too fortunate alternative to killing. It's difficult to properly comment on war and killing if your heroes can incapacitate their enemies without really harming them in ways you can't do to humans.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51253: Jul 19th 2017 at 11:43:53 PM

I feel like some weird lines are being drawn here. I don't think Bismuth's "shatter every enemy, whenever possible" reasoning would have been moral or practical, considering what they were working with.
It's discussed in-show purely as a Moral Dilemma, so I'll suspend my disbelief to accept it as one. Honestly, I'm trying to get some character analysis out of this topic, instead of just talking in circles again about if it would work.

Even the PR issue, while real, is not something relevant to these characters. Bismuth, Rose, and Steven aren't the kind of people to factor in publicity when deciding what is right.

Even if she did manage to assassinate the Diamonds, we've seen that it would most likely lead to Homeworld trying to annihilate the Crystal Gems, rather than join them.
Even besides retribution, it's problematic that Bismuth's cause is that "Gems [can] take control of their own identities", but she trying to advance it through force.

I'm not really a podcast kind of guy, but for those who do listen to it, can you provide cliffnotes on anything interesting revealed in them?
If I end up listening to it, sure.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51254: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:10:48 AM

Fine. Let's just discuss morality.

I believe:

1. Abandoning Homeworld to protect only Earth is immoral.

2. Permanently bubbling a gem is far more harmful and immoral than shattering them. It's cruel and unusual punishment.

3. Leaving your enemies alive to give them another chance to kill your allies and end your cause is inherently immoral.

4. Sacrificing your allies' lives to protect your enemies is immoral.

As such, I believe that Bismuth had the moral high ground everywhere.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51255: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:21:17 AM

Bismuth had moral highground everywhere but the highground itself,that is say she had no highground at all

Bubbling gems permanently would only be harmful if the gem had nothing earn a time out or were not a danger to themselves or anyone else

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51256: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:25:46 AM

1. Protect nothing. Bismuth would've destroyed everything, Earth and Homeworld included.

2. The gems it happened to didn't seem to mind much, apart from some minor disorientation. Besides. they could've been returned to their side after peace was achieved. You know, as is standard practice regarding war prisoners.

3. Considering just how strong the containment is, this is a non-issue. You might as well kill all mahogany farmers to protect your leaders from falling pianos.

4. Bismuth rebelled. She was no longer an ally.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51257: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:28:21 AM

Then we disagree inherently. You believe that shattering a gem is inherently evil and permanently bubbling them is usually justified.

I believe that permanently bubbling a gem is inherently evil and that shattering them can be a good thing an that avoiding shattering them can be inherently evil.

As such, claiming that Bismuth was immoral is utterly ridiculous to me.

EDIT:[up]This is straw-manning.

1. The one who destroyed everything was Rose and her policies.

2. We haven't seen any gems that it happened to. We only saw gems who were temporarily bubbled.

3. The containment has been shown to be breached, so calling it a non-issue is a lie. In addition, again, prior to containment is still a thing.

4. Rose was the one who decided to harm her allies. She was the enemy of the Crystal Gems. It was Bismuth who was their ally.

edited 20th Jul '17 5:33:38 AM by Sereg

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51258: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:33:04 AM

Bismuth was unhinged as a result of a traumatic experience ,I don't know how you can with her

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51259: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:34:34 AM

I made an edit.

No. Bismuth was the only one who was doing the right (and moral) thing.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51260: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:39:06 AM

According to her!

She was not following the jedi crystal gem way,which is that all life is worth preserving,she turned on Rose

edited 20th Jul '17 5:45:11 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51261: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:40:28 AM

Nope. She was reserving life by eradicating those that destroyed it. Rose was destroying life by allowing the eradicators to continue.

edited 20th Jul '17 5:40:45 AM by Sereg

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#51262: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:50:45 AM

You're ignoring this point made by Kayeka:

Besides, they could've been returned to their side after peace was achieved.

Not only is that a real possibility that should be taken into account, but its potential benefits are too great to dismiss. Think about it; if the Crystal Gems had decided to shatter Peridot after capturing her (instead of poofing and bubbling her), then they never would have found out about the Cluster, and the entire earth would have been torn asunder.

edited 20th Jul '17 5:51:02 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#51263: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:54:02 AM

There are other options besides hunting down and executing every Homeworld loyalist, which is the only thing Bismuth would have accepted even if you don't want to bubble them.

Oh really when?
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#51264: Jul 20th 2017 at 5:58:21 AM

2. Permanently bubbling a gem is far more harmful and immoral than shattering them. It's cruel and unusual punishment.

3. Leaving your enemies alive to give them another chance to kill your allies and end your cause is inherently immoral.

These two seem mutually exclusive, since 2 can prevent 3 without having to shatter Gems. Plus the indications are that Gems aren't conscious when bubbled, so it being "more harmful" falls flat. Especially given what we've seen of the And I Must Scream nature of a shattered Gem's/Gem Shard's condition.

Even if you have a point that it's more moral to kill an enemy than let them live to fight another day, is it really more moral to shatter them in mind, body, and, soul when you can effectively achieve the same thing by putting them to sleep indefinitely, barring outside interference (as mentioned before, the only time we've seen escapes the bubbled Gem didn't do it of their own accord)

edited 20th Jul '17 5:59:38 AM by sgamer82

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51265: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:18:16 AM

You're ignoring this point made by Kayeka: Besides, they could've been returned to their side after peace was achieved. Not only is that a real possibility that should be taken into account, but its potential benefits are too great to dismiss. Think about it; if the Crystal Gems had decided to shatter Peridot after capturing her (instead of poofing and bubbling her), then they never would have found out about the Cluster, and the entire earth would have been torn asunder.

It is not a real possibility. Bubbled gems keep the same mentality, so they stay exactly as anagonistic no matter how long you keep them.

There are other options besides hunting down and executing every Homeworld loyalist, which is the only thing Bismuth would have accepted even if you don't want to bubble them.

It’s the only thing I accept as well.

2. Permanently bubbling a gem is far more harmful and immoral than shattering them. It's cruel and unusual punishment. 3. Leaving your enemies alive to give them another chance to kill your allies and end your cause is inherently immoral. These two seem mutually exclusive, since 2 can prevent 3 without having to shatter Gems. Plus the indications are that Gems aren't conscious when bubbled, so it being "more harmful" falls flat. Especially given what we've seen of the And I Must Scream nature of a shattered Gem's/Gem Shard's condition. Even if you have a point that it's more moral to kill an enemy than let them live to fight another day, is it reallymore moral to shatter them in mind, body, and, soul when you can effectively achieve the same thing by putting them to sleep indefinitely, barring outside interference (as mentioned before, the only time we've seen escapes the bubbled Gem didn't do it of their own accord)

You obviously did not understand 2. I consider permanently bubbling someone to be crueller and more evil than shattering them.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#51266: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:19:28 AM

Why?

Oh really when?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51268: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:28:13 AM

Why is keeping someone in a bubble and showing them mercy and maybe even forgiveness worse then outright murdering them?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51269: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:29:49 AM

Because killing them is showing them mercy. Bubbling them is not.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51270: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:31:15 AM

..

Mercy is letting them live,you have your definitions muddled up

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Sedorna Since: Apr, 2014
#51271: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:32:56 AM

[up][up]

But the shattered gems aren't dead. I mean, even if you ignore the Cluster and the fusion experiments, you still have episodes like Frybo and Secret Team that show that gem shards have, at the very least, a partial consciousness and they can form various body parts.

edited 20th Jul '17 7:33:33 AM by Sedorna

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#51272: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:35:56 AM

But they're not actually dead when they're shattered. They're very much a live and in a pretty fair amount of agony, even when they're ground into dust as the gem scroll showed. There's no true cessation of consciousness

If anything bubbling them is closer to actually killing them like you would an organic being. Then they're poofed and in stasis.

Oh really when?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51273: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:37:50 AM

The original gem they used to be is gone,the shards are the fragments of their mind

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#51274: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:39:11 AM

1. The ones destroying everything were the Homeworld Gems.

3. The Quartzes in the Zoo seem to be unpertubed for thousands of years. Besides, you're arguing that because bubbling isn't a perfect solution, then shattering is the way to go. But you seem to think shattering is preferable to keeping the gems alive and bubbled.

4. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Honestly, I think the main point of disagreement are values that the main characters, Rose, and the people of this thread that are arguing with you do not share with you. You seem to hold values closer to Bismuth's, although I wouldn't say they are the same because I think you'd have different reasons for your values. I think talking about what should be done without confronting the values directly will probably lead to people talking past each other.

edited 20th Jul '17 7:40:46 AM by Victin

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#51275: Jul 20th 2017 at 7:46:24 AM

Because killing them is showing them mercy. Bubbling them is not.
Since when have Gems been the kind of Death Before Dishonor types one would likely have to be for that statement to be true? They've been shown to be militaristic, sure, but they aren't samurai who'd rather commit seppuku than live with defeat.

edited 20th Jul '17 7:46:38 AM by sgamer82


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