@51211 The bit about Bismuth doesn't surprise me; everything was so clearly set up for her potential return that I would have been more shocked if Sugar confirmed that she wasn't coming back. As for Jasper... I'm much less excited. I know some people love her appearances, but I was kinda done with her as of "Earthlings." Her story reached an appropriate conclusion; I feel like things have moved on.
@51215 Just to point out the practical point, I don't think we can really discuss modern understanding of war crimes when analyzing a war that predates most if not all of human civilization.
Also, both The Cluster and whatever caused corruption would probably be classified as inhumane weapons by modern standards, which at the very least means that Homeworld wasn't particularly concerned about the kinds of things that humans in the modern day would be.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Which was an accident, so my point stands.
Assuming they were even winning at the time (an assumption), the fact that you’re winning now doesn’t mean that you aren’t lading your people through unnecessary death and destruction. Nor does it mean that you aren’t giving your enemies an unnecessary chance to turn things around.
An excuse for putting your people at unnecessary risk. When you perform an action, you are responsible for the worst possible outcome, no matter how unlikely it is. You don’t get to claim a disaster wasn’t your fault just because it wasn’t likely. As for non-combatants and those who surrendered, yes, there is risk there too. But there’s also risk in killing them. Accepting surrender is safer for other reasons.
You’re the one claiming that it worked out for them. If you have no evidence either way, don’t make the claim in the first place or other possibilities will be given.
And by allowing them to get away, the damage they do is your fault.
I think there's some slight exaggeration going on. Garnet bubbled Steven, conscious, and sent him to the burning room. While there, he was able to pop it from the inside, because he was conscious and then he accidentally released Centi.
A bubbled Gem cannot escape on her own' because the bubble prevents reforming on principle.
Furthermore only Garnet, Amethyst, and Pearl can access the temple, much less the bubble room. Unless you think they'd let a random, freshly recruited Gem in there, your argument has no merit.
@51225 Other people are interested in seeing Jasper redeemed... myself, I've seen how many times Steven has reached out and tried giving Jasper an out to back down (let alone redemption), and she never took it. I just don't think it's going to happen. I know it's harsh, but some people are not going to take the chance at redemption, no matter how many times you offer it. I fully applaud Steven for trying, but I just don't see it happening.
Besides, Skinny Jasper offers way more storytelling possibilities in my view. I'm way more interested in her (and yes, the rest of the Famethyst) than I am of Buff Jasper. I'm kinda hoping that Sugar's reference to seeing more of Jasper is actually to Skinny.
Finally, I'm fully aware of the many ways one can refer to other posts when giving a response. I like this one.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.They did, so we have 100% certainty that my argument has all the merit and yours has none at all.
edited 19th Jul '17 10:37:58 AM by Sereg
They more accurately used bubbling to bring a child to safety and he ended up in the Burning room in a position to accidentally release Centipeetle. Note. In the time of Rose's rebellion, there likely weren't any children among her ranks.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.Which proves that multiple gems working together can fail to foresee that an action they do can result in an escaped prisoner, even when one of them is Garnet.
Besides, that still leaves escaes from prior to bubbling anyway.
And I don't consider bubbling a gem forever to be morally superior to shattering them anyway. "Oh. They're only effectively dead, so I can pretend I have the moral high ground".
That was more of a reasoning for the corrupted gems, not the HW gems...
It's obvious why the don't shatter the Gems hw...but they never felt the need to justify it.
edited 19th Jul '17 11:33:23 AM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Bubbling the corrupted gems is fine. They're looking for a cure.
HW gems is a different story, because the status quo never changes. No mater how long you wait, the gem is still going to e someone you can just unbubble and release. They're stuck in a point of peretual antagonism with no release. Nothing will ever change.
EDIT:
The reason that Rose doesn't shatter HW gems is that she doesn't want to make herself look more like the "baddie" than she already does, while ignoring the fact that it makes her a bigger one.
edited 19th Jul '17 11:37:53 AM by Sereg
Peridot changed. And again, if they hadn't taken her alive, they all would have died when the Cluster emerged. That is certainly an argument in favor of this paying off.
I'm fine with that reasoning.
They probsly don't have a way of shattering gems without the whole scattered limbs thing.
But in this case, they're bubbled with being attacked during the war as their most recent memory when reforming. What kind of effect this would have on a Gem mentally is minor.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Peridot changed after she was released, meaning that it is yet more roof that permanent bubbling isn't any better.
Also, "decision that worked out the best" and "decision you should make based on available information at the time" are not the same thing. The former is just luck. Not viable decision making.
Also, you might be able to blame the Cluster's existence on Rose's policy in the first place. It might have never been made if Rose chased HW away earlier by being less lenient.
Also, something good coming out of something doesn't make the thing it came out of good eg. Amethyst and the kindergartens.
Also, Peridot reminds me that bubbled gems can be released by enemies, who were double agents or who snuck or forced themselves in, who could have created a spontaneous army at the centre of Crystal Gem headquarters, probably ending the rebellion right there.
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The Peridot gem "changed" because of YD, if not for that she would've just been mentally middling or bubbled again.
So far we've seen bubbling has led to overall good while shattering has had negative consequences on the story at present. The former might be luck based, but the latter isn't.
Shattering Pink Diamond has created a situation where about a fourth of the Gem population is disgusted with the Crystal Gems and would never consider joining them. On a smaller scale, every Gem shattered is one who's friends won't be interested in joining the C Gs. The Crystal Gems can't increase their numbers via the kindergartens as that defeats half the point of the rebellion. Thus the only way they can replace shattered members is via recruitment. From a purely pragmatic standpoint the Crystal Gems need to keep the moral high ground.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.I'm gonna leave out the complicated series of responses to cut to a deeper point: Rose took a risk by refusing the Breaking Point. It was not a negligible one nor a completely suicidal one. Ultimately, though, we cannot know how big a risk it was because our view is so indirect. Rose and Bismuth were in a better position to know, but that's not what they really disagreed about. Their conflict was based on fundamentally different goals and priorities.
Rose saw the lives of both sides' gems as having equal value. As much as she knew Homeworld mistreated their own and tried to recruit defectors, Rose didn't think the war was doing them any favors—she started it to protect Earth, because Homeworld treats its life with even less respect than its own. Rose thought using the Breaking Point would end up costing more lives than it saved.
Bismuth was fighting over the fate of Homeworld, not Earth. Bismuth planned to either take over and reform Homeworld, or crush its leadership so the lower-class gems wouldn't be given orders anymore. However, she explicitly considered the Crystal Gems' lives more valuable than Homeworld Gems (not just pragmatically, but morally), because they were already liberated and her friends. Bismuth thought the Breaking Point would save Crystal Gems' lives and liberate gems who wanted freedom, and didn't care if it killed an even greater number of Homeworld Gems or about the ones that didn't want to be freed.
Honestly, I don't think either side has much of a moral high ground—in regards to using the Breaking Point. The real reason Bismuth was put in the bubble, both times, was she immediately tried to kill Rose and Steven when told she couldn't use it.
The show is getting an official podcast
I point out that Bismuth's plan was doomed to failure unless she started treating the Earth as a colony. There's simply no way to win an offensive war against Homeworld with the numbers the Crystal Gems had. Even if she did manage to assassinate the Diamonds, we've seen that it would most likely lead to Homeworld trying to annihilate the Crystal Gems, rather than join them.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.I just feel the need to point out the Breaking Point isn't an impractical weapon, because the show doesn't need to adhere to "realistic" standards. You could say curling into fetal position and charging at your enemy by spinning isn't a practical way of attacking them, but hey, look at the Quartzes doing it. In a work of fiction, a bare-chested fighter with waist-long hair needs not to be at a disadvantage in battle by virtue of those factors alone unless the story calls for it. That fighter could even carry a guillotine and successfully use it as a meele weapon to decapitate enemies if the creator felt like that's what the story should have.
As we haven't seen, that I remember, Era 2 guns and explosives (including laser, kinetic, or whatever-based weapons) that we know for a fact could shatter gems, the Breaking Point might as well be the best artifact for shattering gems mid-battle at meele range. Also consider that "best" may mean "fastest," "cheapest," "easiest to produce," etc. instead of "the one that kills best." Even then, as far as we know, Bismuth could outfit each of the Crystal Gems (from before the Corruption) with one of these in each hand so they could lay waste to their enemies. Heck, maybe Rose herself could go into a bloodlust and shatter an entire legion by herself with a single one of these. I think "it's not practical" is a baseless assumption.
My personal opinion on the matter is: shattering gems, within my knowledge of gem geology, is morally wrong. However, I wouldn't like to be in Rose and Bismuth's place, leading a straight out war against a tyrannical power. With great power...
I feel like some weird lines are being drawn here. I don't think Bismuth's "shatter every enemy, whenever possible" reasoning would have been moral or practical, considering what they were working with.
That doesn't mean there wouldn't be a time when shattering, while unfortunate, would be necessary. New mystery concerning how and by who Pink Diamond was shattered aside, I still don't think they're actually going to go back on it being necessary.
Still, when you have something like bubbling that neutralizes the thread, and can be done quickly, I'd imagine in most case they wouldn't have a reason not to do so.
edited 19th Jul '17 9:47:17 PM by LSBK
I agree Pink Diamond's death was necessary, despite the costs to the Crystal Gem side. I'm saying that her death embodies to hazards of shattering as a tactic. Even if other Gems only have a lesser effect, they still have an effect.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

How does Bismuth prove Rose's innocence of anything?