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Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51201: Jul 17th 2017 at 6:28:22 AM

I don't forget everything else. AFAIC, shattering enemy quartzes would have been the morally and pragmatically correct action. AFAIC, the circumstances of quartz creation matter squat.

I do agree that it's an impractical weapon (which I noticed immediately), but that is not where the disagreement came from. If it did, things would have gone differently.

Rose/Steven: This is an interesting idea, Bismuth, but this weapon is a bit awkward for me to use in combat. I think I'm more effective with my sword. You designed it so well, after all.

Bismuth: All right. I'll keep thinking. You can use the sword for now.

  • Everything is fine and dandy*

EDIT: And yes, I agree with Bismuth that Rose was a traitor to the Crystal Gems, sending them to their death for refusing on such grounds and thus support her attacking Rose.

edited 17th Jul '17 6:30:18 AM by Sereg

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#51202: Jul 17th 2017 at 6:51:28 AM

Thing is that proofing a Gem is effectively the same process as killing an enemy soldier, and this takes the same amount of time. It takes two secondish to bubble a Gem and while that can be a disadvantage in some situations I imagine that most Gems don't reform so fast that it can't be delayed till the imediate threat is dealt with.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#51203: Jul 17th 2017 at 7:14:30 AM

Also, I know the show just treats gem shattering as if it were analogous to human death, but... it's not. It's worse. As we saw in Gem Drill, after a gem is shattered the individual gem shards maintain sentience. Still alive, but unable to become whole, each shard is condemned to an infinitesimal prison, grasping hopelessly at some form of stability or coherence. Forever.

Can you look me in the eye and tell me that subjecting thousands of gem soldiers to that fate would be the morally right thing to do?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51204: Jul 17th 2017 at 7:51:24 AM

They were in agony because fusing them together brought them partially back to life. If left alone, shards are essentially dead—Steven didn't any kind of psychic attack from the shards left around the temple.

edited 17th Jul '17 7:51:58 AM by thatother1dude

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#51205: Jul 17th 2017 at 8:33:42 AM

Yeah, when poofing and bubbling produces the same effects as death, It's not particularly practical to go out of your way to kill enemy gems. If for whatever reason that was there only option and it couldn't be helped, so be it. But I feel like they were operating under that system anyway. I doubt Rose would actually tell her people to let themselves be killed, rather than kill. Just absolutely don't kill if you can avoid it.

That being said, Homeworld most certainly wasn't working under that principle, and I can understand why the stress of rejecting your former position, and then having to many of your friends die in front of you would lead someone to where Bismuth went.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#51206: Jul 17th 2017 at 8:36:53 AM

@51173 I mean, if we're talking about an Omnicidal Maniac, there is a pretty good word to describe who he wants to kill - "everyone."

@51186 Yeah, I'm going to echo the idea that Bismuth is just an Anti-Hero, and one I can see sliding away from the "anti-" part should she get future appearances (and I'd like that). The part that sucked, to me, about her bubbling at the end of the episode is that her words before poofing really sounded to me like she was finally understanding. I really want to see that followed up.

@51194 Yes, Bis was wrong about the shattering of Diamonds, but I will cut her a bit of slack on being wrong about being capable of shattering Diamonds, particularly if it turns out she had never seen a Diamond. She may have been running on faulty information.

Mind you, I think Bis was wrong morally to want to shatter a gem, but that's its own issue distinct from being incorrect about capability.

As for inefficiency... I think that it's got a bit of Fridge Horror when you think about it. Yes, the Breaking Point is rather inefficient, particularly when you consider that an opponent may, quite reasonably, have their gem protected in some way (particularly in wartime). Just as an obvious example, imagine if there was a gem that was kinda like an evil duplicate of Garnet - gem on a hand (or hands, if you want to make this evil gem a fusion to completely match Garnet), and whose weapon is armored gauntlets that completely cover the gem. Or imagine if Jasper's helmet was completely face-covering. Or if someone with their gem on their stomach or chest wore a breastplate. Even beyond those ideas, there's also the fact that a gem probably is going to reasonably develop a fighting style that greatly protects their gem (e.g. you're never going to see Pearl rely on headbutts).

Logically, the Breaking Point is most capably going to be used on a gem that's already been poofed - it's when you have the clearest shot, and when such an inefficient weapon is at its most capable. In other words, it's best used on an opponent already at your mercy (and one that could just as easily be dealt with via bubbling).

Unrelated to this, something I was just wondering... since bubbling is an effective way of stopping a foe that's been poofed, do we know if any of the bubbled gems at the temple predate when Homeworld abandoned Earth? I had assumed for a long time that all of those gems were corrupted gem monsters, but now I'm not so sure.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51207: Jul 17th 2017 at 9:06:53 AM

since bubbling is an effective way of stopping a foe that's been poofed, do we know if any of the bubbled gems at the temple predate when Homeworld abandoned Earth? I had assumed for a long time that all of those gems were corrupted gem monsters, but now I'm not so sure.
Logically, the Crystal Gems must have had plenty of prisoners of war when Homeworld left. They also shouldn't have been corrupted while they were bubbled—if they were, why was Lapis unaffected?

Previously, I guessed either Homeworld came back for them or the Crystal Gems engineered a situation where they would escape, think it was an accident, and leave. I don't expect it to ever be addressed.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51208: Jul 17th 2017 at 9:26:14 AM

Among the many things that could be inside the chest,the prisoners the crystal gems took during the war could be in there,it is a very secure location known only to Rose.

edited 17th Jul '17 9:36:54 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51209: Jul 17th 2017 at 10:29:51 AM

Among the many things that could be inside the chest,the prisoners the crystal gems took during the war could be in there,it is a very secure location known only to Rose.
All of them?

Only letting Rose know where they were kind of makes sense during the war, but not thousands of year after.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#51210: Jul 17th 2017 at 1:10:24 PM

There is a related possibility - there's a different room where Homeworld loyalists are kept, one that Steven just hasn't seen yet. Another, similar one is that there are multiple rooms where bubbled gems are kept, with the Crystal Gems opening up a new room once the previous one is filled, and Steven just hasn't gone into any of those older rooms.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51211: Jul 17th 2017 at 1:57:00 PM

Poofing instead of shattering leaves you with the likelihood of having to repeatedly defeat the same enemy or worse, getting a surprise ganking.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#51212: Jul 17th 2017 at 1:59:46 PM

That doesn't seem to have been a problem for them at all though. Like, presumably most of the bubbles they have in that room have been there for centuries, and likely much longer.

As long as they have a secure place to put them, the threat is negligible. And that wasn't what Bismuth was thinking about anyway.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#51213: Jul 17th 2017 at 2:00:49 PM

Well, you can always bubble them. And quite frankly, keeping enemy gems alive has more than paid off for the Crystal Gems. If they had shattered Peridot, then the Cluster would have killed them all.

Oh God! Natural light!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51214: Jul 17th 2017 at 2:29:01 PM

> All of them?

Maybe not all of them,but some of the ones they couldn't win over and were especially dangerous,as for why only Rose would know of their location even after the war effectively ended,maybe Rose didn't want risk it's existence being known should Homeworld ever return and capture one of them,

As for Rose's no shattering policy, showing mercy to captured gems is a sound recruitment strategy,Homeworld shatters gems,the crystal gems don't

edited 17th Jul '17 2:29:27 PM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#51215: Jul 18th 2017 at 3:45:33 AM

That doesn't seem to have been a problem for them at all though. Like, presumably most of the bubbles they have in that room have been there for centuries, and likely much longer. As long as they have a secure place to put them, the threat is negligible. And that wasn't what Bismuth was thinking about anyway.

Firstly, you don't know that. For all we know, nine tenths of all Crystal Gem deaths in the war were caused by soldiers that had previously been poofed but got away. (I'm talking about before bubbling. Not that bubbling is safe anyway, as is proven by Centieedle's escape).

Even if Centipeedle is literally the first time a poofed enemy escaped, the low threat is not an excuse. Evil Only Has to Win Once.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#51216: Jul 18th 2017 at 9:14:03 AM

Centi only escaped because Steven freed her

edit,relevant link because of Bismuth discussion,because she's confirmed Jasper and Bismuth will return

Finally, a little tidbit for anyone who’s wondering if antagonist Jasper and former Crystal Gem Bismuth are still around: they are.

‘You haven’t seen the last of them,’ Sugar promises. 'I love them both too much.’

http://www.newsweek.com/steven-universe-vinyl-sdcc-rebecca-sugar-638202

edited 18th Jul '17 10:05:05 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51217: Jul 18th 2017 at 1:59:03 PM

For all we know, nine tenths of all Crystal Gem deaths in the war were caused by soldiers that had previously been poofed but got away. (I'm talking about before bubbling.)
How much of a difference it made is theoretical, but the Crystal Gems were winning anyway—as much as they could when the Diamonds had a trump card they'd play as soon as they considered Earth a lost cause.

Even if Centipeedle is literally the first time a poofed enemy escaped, the low threat is not an excuse.
An "excuse" for what? You're just saying there is some risk for taking prisoners at all, but that would apply even to non-combatants and those who surrendered. And there's always some risk to doing anything—you can't just ignore the unlikeness of a threat when using it to justify your actions.

They didn't need to keep every prisoners in one location.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#51218: Jul 18th 2017 at 2:02:25 PM

I wonder if there's some sort of Space/Gem Geneva Convention that says you are legally obligated to take in and care for injured enemy prisoners of war and you can't kill anyone who's considered to be knocked out of combat.

Oh really when?
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51219: Jul 18th 2017 at 2:02:50 PM

Isn't killing a neutralised enemy a warcrime by modern standards?

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51220: Jul 18th 2017 at 2:18:11 PM

I wonder if there's some sort of Space/Gem Geneva Convention that says you are legally obligated to take in and care for injured enemy prisoners of war and you can't kill anyone who's considered to be knocked out of combat.
Almost certainly not. The Diamonds consider their own power absolute, nothing suggests there is any other political body they respect, and their subjects clearly have no rights. It's unlikely they ever established diplomatic lines with the rebels. Rose and Bismuth had no law to appeal to, only what they thought was right and would work.

Isn't killing a neutralised enemy a warcrime by modern standards?
Yes, but applying those standards to this situations has problems, both political and practical, in both directions.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#51221: Jul 18th 2017 at 3:05:26 PM

Firstly, you don't know that. For all we know, nine tenths of all Crystal Gem deaths in the war were caused by soldiers that had previously been poofed but got away.

We have absolutely no reason to assume what you're saying either. And since no one else has brought it up and bubbling has been shown to be impossible to escape from on the inside, I see no reason to go with your line of reasoning.

edited 18th Jul '17 3:07:31 PM by LSBK

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#51222: Jul 18th 2017 at 3:56:34 PM

no one else has brought it up and bubbling has been shown to be impossible to escape from on the inside
Sereg was, in that instance, talking about the Homeworld gems the Crystal Gems poofed but weren't able to bubble.

How often either side shattered/bubbled gems mid-battle is anyone's guess.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51223: Jul 18th 2017 at 4:00:57 PM

We know that Homeworld did so with Lapis, so we at least know that "shatter everything" wasn't doctrine.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#51224: Jul 18th 2017 at 4:00:59 PM

Well in those instances I'd assume they'd eventually reform and go back to fighting. Unfortunate, put people getting away in wars happens.

Bubbling appears to be pretty quick so I don't think you can make a strong argument that just shattering them is even saving a non-negligible amount of time.

Bananaquit Since: Jan, 2001
#51225: Jul 18th 2017 at 8:23:44 PM

wild mass guessThe items found in Lion’s mane are items of evidence to prove Rose’s innocence


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