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Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#50551: Jun 7th 2017 at 7:52:54 PM

We "were sure" she had done it, and now we aren't, so we are theorizing. I mean, people were wondering all alone if Rose actually did it, because it "wasn't" entirely consistent with her previous characterization, and now we have someone on-screen agreeing. It was the most impactful event of the latest episodes, followed only by Zombie Lars. And who cares about Lars?

EDIT: I'm being (mostly) facetious tongue

edited 7th Jun '17 7:53:29 PM by Victin

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#50552: Jun 7th 2017 at 7:59:01 PM

Would Gems obey the first person they saw when they popped out of a kindergarten?
Everything about Amethyst's knowledge suggests she only knew things the other Crystal Gems told her.

Unless stated other, just assume gems act and think the same way as humans in their position. The closest analogue I can think of is a human with Identity Amnesia. They have "general knowledge" (which is a useful narrative concept, even if it doesn't make sense) but are very suggestible.

But Gems have individualistic desires—self-preservation, morality, empathy, etc. Topaz makes it clear plenty of Homeworld gems aren't motivated by loyalty, they just see no other options. If Homeworld wasn't so strong, they'd see way more defection for all their mistreatments.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50553: Jun 7th 2017 at 7:59:46 PM

[up][up]Facetiousness aside, what you said actually does apply to a lot of people. Shattering Pink Diamond to end the war is only inconsistent with Rose's character if you assume something like that is equivalent to wanton killing of all enemy combatants. The information in question doesn't even say it's inconsistent for Rose, just that there would be difficulties that we weren't aware of.

And there were people scramble to the "Eyeball is stupid so don't trust her" or "shapeshifting" as soon as Rose doing it was revealed.

We were likely going to find out more about what actually happened either way, this just introduces a new twist on it. And yes, that twist does put Rose's culpability under inspection, but my point was that a lot of people seem to be taking this as "So Rose couldn't have done it!" instead of "Huh, there are some unanswered questions here regarding Rose". These discussions are being framed as if Rose being framed or something is absolutely certain now, and that is most certainly not the case.

edited 7th Jun '17 8:00:53 PM by LSBK

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#50554: Jun 7th 2017 at 8:00:31 PM

My question is why are so many of you taking this as confirmation that Rose didn't do it? Like, as much as I dislike that, I admit it's where they're going, but ever since this happened people making these theories all seem to be taken it as a given that Rose just didn't do it anymore, and not that there being more to the story does not preclude her still being responsible for Pink's death, even if she didn't do it herself.
I think it's more that if Rose did it, then she just did somehow with help. But if she didn't the question of who did is more intriguing to speculate about.

Also it just seems like the way they're going at the moment.

edited 7th Jun '17 8:01:28 PM by xanderiskander

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#50555: Jun 7th 2017 at 8:05:39 PM

gems take hundreds of years to form
That would make sense, but I don't remember that being specified. Amethyst came out a half millennia late, that doesn't really say anything for how long it would normally take. Pearl sure made it sound like the Injectors take in everything in a hurry ("Is she trying to re-activate the Kindergarten? Doesn't she know it'll destroy all life on Earth?!")

To use an analogy again, real life gems take extremely long to form, but that's in nature. Synthetic gemstones are easily made in a short time, and have been for over a century.

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#50556: Jun 7th 2017 at 8:08:15 PM

I feel like the story is implying that Rose got help. Taking away direct culpability for Pink's death, and I feel like I'm sounding like a broken record here, undoes character development that was established like 6 episodes beforehand, development that we spent most of Season 4 working on, that we spent the big finale of Season 3 looking at. I'm betting my record on it, feel free to rub it in my face if I'm mistaken here, I bet 100% that Rose is the primary conspirator towards the assassination of Pink Diamond. Any intervention by the Diamonds, by PD's court, by Pearl, by PD herself, comes secondary to Rose's own intuition that killing PD is the only way to save Earth. It is a fundamental plot point that the entire show hinges around; like straight up killing PD is almost certainly a primary motivation behind the Corruption Song that sets up the events of the show.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#50557: Jun 7th 2017 at 8:21:23 PM

At the very least Rose wanted Pink Diamond dead, planned/tried to kill her, Pink Diamond ended up dead, and Rose benefited from it. I could even see Rose's apparent admission of guilt being an Avatar Kyoshi kind of thing where she thinks it's splitting hairs if she shattered Pink herself.

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#50558: Jun 7th 2017 at 8:54:35 PM

That would make sense, but I don't remember that being specified. Amethyst came out a half millennia late, that doesn't really say anything for how long it would normally take. Pearl sure made it sound like the Injectors take in everything in a hurry ("Is she trying to re-activate the Kindergarten? Doesn't she know it'll destroy all life on Earth?!")

To use an analogy again, real life gems take extremely long to form, but that's in nature. Synthetic gemstones are easily made in a short time, and have been for over a century.

I don't remember when they specify it in the show specifically but the guide book says it takes "lotsa time" for them to form. And it makes more sense for them to pop out late, if it takes a lot of time already.

That seems what we're supposed to get out of it, with the timeline spanning hundreds of years, and Jasper popping out sort of in the middle or late into the war, instead of immediately after Rose's rebellion started.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#50559: Jun 7th 2017 at 9:09:30 PM

the guide book says it takes "lotsa time" for them to form
Hmm, let's see... ah, page 18.
Amethyst: Usually, gems are made, not born! Colorful goo stuff is put super deep in the ground, and after lotsa time and pressure, a gem gets formed.

That seems what we're supposed to get out of it, with the timeline spanning hundreds of years, and Jasper popping out sort of in the middle or late into the war, instead of immediately after Rose's rebellion started.
She would have been made late in even if it happened instantly. Peridot said the Beta Kindergarten wasn't made until "Halfway through the rebellion".

superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#50560: Jun 7th 2017 at 9:40:28 PM

Okay, so if the Diamonds DID shatter Pink (This is purely speculation since we don't know who did it), what are some possible reasons for doing so?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#50561: Jun 8th 2017 at 1:37:38 AM

[up] Pink being defective is one theory. And/or beginning to sympathize with the rebels.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#50562: Jun 8th 2017 at 5:44:20 AM

Or to frame Rose in order to rally Homeworld against the Rebellion.

I believe we've already discussed this.

Oh God! Natural light!
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#50563: Jun 8th 2017 at 5:53:53 AM

[up]Yeah, no. Pink's death was a heavy blow to the authority of the Diamonds. If anything, it must've bolstered any rebellious thoughts now that it was shown that the Diamonds could be defeated with a sharp implement and some gusto.

It's why they went full Nuke It From Orbit on Earth despite the loss of lives and resources.

edited 8th Jun '17 5:54:56 AM by Kayeka

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#50564: Jun 8th 2017 at 6:18:59 AM

Well, I'm not saying it worked.

Then again, what evidence do we have that Pink's death increased support of the Rebellion?

Indeed, her death seems to have merely strengthened everyone's positions, regardless of what side they were on.

edited 8th Jun '17 6:20:59 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#50565: Jun 8th 2017 at 6:48:48 AM

This does bring up a good point: We really don't know why exactly Rose wanted to kill PD. We know that it was probably a tough decision for Rose, we know that she thought it was necessary, but how? What was she trying to accomplish here?

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50566: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:18:09 AM

That doesn't seem like that big a question to me. It's implied that Earth was Pink Diamond's only planet, so there was probably no chance of her ever leaving and ending the fight as long as she lived.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#50567: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:25:10 AM

Possibly also her home if theories about the hole in Russia are on to something

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#50568: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:47:23 AM

[up][up] The plan was ultimately to kick the Diamonds, all of the Diamonds, off homeworld. It's implied that Pink Diamond was assassinated in the thick of the rebellion, when the sides had already been drawn. Pink Diamond was already an uprooted ruler.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50569: Jun 8th 2017 at 8:01:02 AM

Was it? I thought that was just Bismuth's plan.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#50570: Jun 8th 2017 at 8:07:34 AM

I think it's pretty easy to Hand Wave why Rose felt it was necessary to shatter Pink Diamond. Over the course of literal centuries, I'm sure Rose's original resolve to just kick Homeworld out of Earth wore down. As much as she just wanted PD and her loyalists to just leave Earth, as time dragged on, Rose probably had less and less confidence that PD would just leave, even as the rebellion gained ground. I imagine at some point, Rose hit a Despair Event Horizon and made a decision that, even if no other gems were to be shattered, Pink Diamond had to die.

Among other things, I think this resulted in Rose becoming a bit of a Stepford Smiler and a Shell-Shocked Veteran (which is a very interesting lens to look at her flashback appearances, let me tell you). It's all conjecture, of course, but it fits very easily into what info we've been given.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Sabertooth1000000000 Sabertooth from Land of the Livid Dead Since: Jul, 2010
Sabertooth
#50571: Jun 8th 2017 at 9:22:16 AM

When did PD die exactly? Was it thousands of years before the beginning of the series? Or recently before Steven was born?

3DS FC: 1719-3694-1541
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#50572: Jun 8th 2017 at 9:23:31 AM

Thousands of years before. Homeworld was very long gone by the time Steven was born.

Oh really when?
Sabertooth1000000000 Sabertooth from Land of the Livid Dead Since: Jul, 2010
Sabertooth
#50573: Jun 8th 2017 at 9:28:40 AM

And yet Blue Diamond is still deep in mourning. Time truly is relative.

Amazing to think that this pivotal event in the series happened before the Civil Rights movement, before George Washington, before Shakespeare, before the Aztec Empire. All of this rich human history occurred way after this one event that everybody is still talking about like it was last week. Imagine what a big deal it must have been at the time! The world was shaken!

3DS FC: 1719-3694-1541
Strontiumsun A Gamma Moth from Chicago Since: May, 2015
A Gamma Moth
#50574: Jun 8th 2017 at 9:41:24 AM

I had a semi lucid dream last night where I was Steven and Yellow Diamond took me on a tour of Homeworld. I guess I/Steven had convinced her not to hurt me. At one point I gave her some food, and then had to explain to her how to shapeshift a digestive system. I remember I had a bag that I used to show the shape of a stomach, and that I reminded her to unclude "an exit hole." I guess I was too bashful to say butt or anus XD

Creator of Heroes of Thantopolis: http://heroesofthantopolis.com/
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#50575: Jun 8th 2017 at 10:47:48 AM

Others could probably give links to the episode recaps in question, but I believe that it was established that Pink Diamond was shattered during the rebellion (I think that's what was said in "The Trial"), while the rebellion itself was around 5-6 millennia ago. The precise times are a bit vague, and it wouldn't even surprise me if it was actually a bit longer ago, and the principals just forget the specifics of how long ago it was.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

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