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BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#50001: May 30th 2017 at 1:58:20 AM

[up] That theory makes my head hurt.

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#50002: May 30th 2017 at 2:00:44 AM

He needs to ask Bismuth about the sword,which is what comes next I imagine

edited 30th May '17 2:00:55 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50003: May 30th 2017 at 3:16:14 AM

The theory that Yellow Diamond murdered Pink Diamond... sucks. It'd be removing an appealing bit of moral complexity from the story in favour of pinning all the bad stuff on this one villain. It'd be a huge misstep.

Not a lot of shows handled the issue of killing as maturely as Steven Universe did when Pink Diamond's death was first revealed. Most media tend to have a very black and white view on the subject of taking a life (looking at you Batman). I appreciated how this show acknowledged that, yes, as a rebel leader Rose did have to take lives, and no, this does not automatically make her just as bad as the Diamonds.

Eyeball says she saw it happen. Garnet and Pearl didn't dispute it. That's enough confirmation for me.

I think the dialogue at the trial is far more likely pointing toward a twist regarding Pearl's involvement, likely the confirmation that Pearl was Pink Diamond's Pearl before she defected, and may have been acting as a mole for the Crystal Gems in PD's court leading up to the assassination.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#50004: May 30th 2017 at 4:08:59 AM

The common interpretation nowadays is that batman doesn't kill because he's holding back a lot of aggression, and he's afraid that, due to the sheer convenience of eliminating villains for good, and the pleasure he gets from hurting criminals, he'd end up making a habit out of it. He'd become like James Bond or John Matrix or Judge Dredd. That is, even more of a fascist asshole than he already is.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50005: May 30th 2017 at 4:33:49 AM

Yeah, and I liked that this show didn't go with the kind of false equivalence that suggests letting an irredeemable mass murderer like the Joker die automatically makes you as bad as him. The show set up that Rose was against Bismuth's genocidal plans with the Breaking Point, but then frankly acknowledged that, no, just because Rose didn't want to commit mass murder doesn't mean she got through a whole rebellion with her hands squeaky clean. Backpedaling away from that and deciding that Rose is actually innocent after all would be a total cop-out.

I feel that like the fandom, Steven himself isn't really willing to accept the nuance between being a mass murderer and taking a life in a rebellion against an oppressive regime, considering that he's referred to his mother as a "war criminal" and suggested Rose probably used the Breaking Point to shatter PD. I wonder if that'll change.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#50006: May 30th 2017 at 4:48:06 AM

Suddenly Crystal gem Pearl being formerly a servant of the diamonds makes sense to me,but not necessarily Pink Diamond's,if Yellow really did kill her off then maybe Pearl is Yellow's pearl after all,but her pink hair would disqualify that,unless she was killed right after it happened and Rose resurrected her later .

edited 30th May '17 4:48:45 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#50007: May 30th 2017 at 5:34:48 AM

I thought it was really interesting that Steven seemed to be under the impression that Rose shattered Pink using the Breaking Point. I know that was a theory in the fandom but it wasn't a common one, and the theory that Rose shattering Pink kicked off the war was far more widely accepted, so Steven coming to that conclusion is really interesting to me.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#50008: May 30th 2017 at 6:03:39 AM

I thought it was really interesting that Steven seemed to be under the impression that Rose shattered Pink using the Breaking Point.

I think he was just spouting off the first thing that came to his mind. It was pretty clear that he was making the story up as he went along, in the hopes that it would match the reality of the situation.

"And then I shattered her, with... um... probably the Breaking Point. Yeah, let's go with that."

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#50009: May 30th 2017 at 6:28:07 AM

There is also the fact that Bismuth implies Rose's sword can't shatter a diamond. If it wasn't the sword, the only other weapon Steven is aware is the Breaking Point.

I've always wondered how literally that information was meant to be. Like, was Rose's sword simply not designed to shatter gems, like the Breaking Point was, or was it literally incapable of doing so? Both interpretations cast vastly different lights into the Pink Diamond murder mystery.

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#50010: May 30th 2017 at 7:15:31 AM

[up] The way Bismuth says it seems to imply that Rose's sword, at least the one Connie uses, was made to not shatter gems. It's implied that shattering gems is actually pretty easy, Jasper threatened to shatter Amethyst with her bare hands, so Rose probably had to go through extra steps to make sure that she didn't accidentally shatter any gems when she fought.

THEORY: What if PD intentionally let Rose kill her? That was how a Rose Quartz was allowed to enter into PD's court. YD knows this, and keeps that truth hidden to protect the image of Pink Diamond.

THEORY 2: Rose Quartzes are, though not part of PD's formal court, incredibly high up gems that were exclusive to PD. That's why there are so relatively few of them bubbled in PD's memorial, and why Steven has so many fucking powers.

edited 30th May '17 7:15:45 AM by InAnOdderWay

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50011: May 30th 2017 at 7:26:38 AM

I'm surprised that so many people took from the episode that Yellow or Blue Diamond killed PD. That didn't even cross my mind. I just saw Zircon's accusation as her comically screwing up solid defence by jumping to conclusions and insulting the people she didn't want to get mad.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#50012: May 30th 2017 at 7:29:55 AM

[up]I'm not jumping to conclusions either... but I can't rule out that Yellow Diamond might have actually done it. It didn't help that she poofed not just the defense attorney, but her own prosecutor to boot. As soon as Blue Zircon made that accusation, she suddenly had no fucks to give. I still don't think Blue Diamond could have done with it, but with Yellow, it's certainly possible.

edited 30th May '17 7:30:17 AM by kkhohoho

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#50013: May 30th 2017 at 8:02:20 AM

Alternatively, Yellow Diamond was simply fucking pissed off by the accusation, and was blasting anything that even resembled the source of her anger.

Yellow's duet with Blue a while back seems to betray more complicated and genuine emotions wrt Pink's death than she might have if she was responsible. Maybe there's something she's covering up by pushing for Earth's destruction, but I don't think it's as simple as "Yellow did it."


FWIW, I still think that Rose was responsible for Pink Diamond's demise. Even if she didn't pull the trigger herself, even if she had an insider who set up the opportunity for her, and then shattered Pink herself instead of letting Rose do it, Rose would still be responsible for what happened, and what happened as a result of it. And she strikes me as the kind of person who would think herself responsible, too.

I have a message from another time...
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50014: May 30th 2017 at 8:04:37 AM

[up] That's the impression I got. That the Zircon just pressed Yellow's Berserk Button by voicing such a heinous accusation. I imagine Peridot would have suffered the same fate if Yellow could have reached her when she called her a clod.

There's no way Yellow framed Rose. There are eyewitnesses that attest Rose did it, Garnet and Pearl definitely think Rose did it and don't attempt to persuade Steven otherwise even when the possibility of Rose's innocence would have been comforting to him. Maybe Yellow knows more than she lets on, but I see no non-contrived way for the show to pull a fast one and have Rose turn out to be innocent.

edited 30th May '17 8:08:29 AM by DrDougsh

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50015: May 30th 2017 at 8:17:19 AM

So,watched it all on You Tube. Very, very good stuff.

And I agree with basically everything [up] has said on the matter. My first thought was that White Diamond actually did it (Rose still did the actual shattering, but White made the situation possible) and Yellow covered for her (maybe against her will) but still feels terrible about it.

Edit: And White being missing is conspicuous at this point, but with this show conspicuous doesn't necessarily mean anything strange is going on with her. It could easily mean they just aren't ready to show her, so they aren't going to, despite how it comes off. Maybe a hand wave later on to answer why she wasn't her for something this important, but like others have said, the answer could simply be that she just doesn't care like Yellow and Blue do.

edited 30th May '17 8:29:43 AM by LSBK

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#50016: May 30th 2017 at 8:22:25 AM

If White Diamond really is the giant "statue" in the background like Otherdude thinks then I have a hard time seeing her doing anything covertly. Mainly because Yellow Diamond at least has the benefit of being indoors to speak to someone in private, but something that big wouldn't.

That and without meeting her and seeing what she's like I have no reason to see White Diamond being involved. Yellow Diamond at least has hints towards it, aside from the trial, with her wanting to get rid of anything involving PD, which could potentially lead back to it if any of the bubbled Rose Quartzes were witnesses.

edited 30th May '17 8:30:00 AM by xanderiskander

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#50017: May 30th 2017 at 8:29:42 AM

I do believe that the show's wasted way too much time on this whole "Rose isn't all that great" subplot to back out at this point. I do however think that the viewer is 100% supposed to look at defending Zircon as having a serious point that brings into question a lot of what we know about PD's demise.

I'm on the side that Rose had help on the inside and YD may have known it, be it through PD's Pearl or PD herself.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50018: May 30th 2017 at 8:34:31 AM

[up][up]Standard storytelling leads to believe you've got that backwards; the fact that Yellow comes off as overtly suspicious is what should make you doubt she did it. Similarly, not knowing anything about White should make you more suspicious of her, not less. At least, that's how these things usually go, with a development of this magnitude.

[up]I don't think it's been overdone considering the magnitude of the situation, but they probably put so much focus on her because so many people mistakenly took everyone's words about her as gospel. It seemed pretty obvious to me that Greg and the Crystal Gems saw Rose through , ahem, rose colored glasses. But a lot of people seemed to think we were suppose to take her being perfect or something as fact.

Some people still think that, because the show didn't treat Roses actions as equivalent to Bismuth's. Of course, that has so racial concerns mixed in, but I still think that goes into people not getting nuances about the topic.

edited 30th May '17 8:40:19 AM by LSBK

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#50019: May 30th 2017 at 8:36:47 AM

At the same time Blue seemed really certain it was a sword that shattered Pink. So something needs to explain that too. So I can also see Yellow just being outraged at the accusation.

[up]Nah. Introducing a new character at the last minute to resolve a mystery is a cheap solution, not a standard one. It's unsatisfying because you can't put the pieces together.

And I was mostly saying I have no opinion of her, because I don't know what she's like. Heck we don't even know if she's a separate character. She could still just be a fusion of two Diamonds.

edited 30th May '17 8:44:27 AM by xanderiskander

Austin Since: Jan, 2001
#50020: May 30th 2017 at 8:39:40 AM

Given the way this show is, I wouldn't be surprised if there have been allusions to White Diamond, we just don't know which details are important. I do hope they at least provide an in-universe reason for why no one mentions her.

By this point, it does feel a touch ridiculous at how hard the writers are avoiding acknowledging White Diamond's existence. I would've even accepted a vague mention from the other Diamonds in the last few episodes. I'm not upset that we don't know anything about her, I just think her conspicuous absence is a bit too glaring at this point.

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#50021: May 30th 2017 at 8:46:58 AM

There's no way Yellow framed Rose. There are eyewitnesses that attest Rose did it, Garnet and Pearl definitely think Rose did it and don't attempt to persuade Steven otherwise even when the possibility of Rose's innocence would have been comforting to him. '

The conspiracy angle puts all of that in doubt though.Given that we aren't actually shown what the eyewitnesses saw it is possibly that what they saw wasn't a accurate account of what actually happened.

Garnet and Peal brought into it and Rose (for some reason) kept them in the dark.

edited 30th May '17 8:52:05 AM by DeanCole

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50022: May 30th 2017 at 8:49:21 AM

[up][up][up]I mean, this wouldn't really be that though. We've been anticipating White ever since we've found out about the Diamonds, just like the others. It also still wouldn't tell us why, or what she's been doing now, or what her role is, or a myriad of other things about the character.

Granted, Yellow could have done it and just be racked with guilt over it eons later, but like I said before, her being fairly suspicious just makes her involvement being of that nature more unlikely. It doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't involved at all, though.

edited 30th May '17 8:50:20 AM by LSBK

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#50023: May 30th 2017 at 8:53:13 AM

We saw that Blue Diamond can forcibly make people feel what she feels, apparently with so little effort that she does it completely by accident. What if there is a gem that can either alter memories or force gems to believe what she wants them to, and say that gem works for Yellow or White Diamond? Witness testimony is immediately thrown out the window. It also seems like many of Pink Diamond's gems were Reassigned to Antarctica or might have been outright poofed or shattered, meaning a lot of them might know the truth but be too afraid to speak out or were suppressed.

And then there's the fact that gems are all capable of shapeshifting, meaning that any pink-hued gem could have done it. Or maybe the gem didn't even need to be pink, considering how easily certain gem types are fooled into believing downright improbable lies.

edited 30th May '17 8:58:54 AM by PhiSat

Oissu!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#50024: May 30th 2017 at 8:56:10 AM

I think Rose Quartz did kill Pink, but she did so with assistance from someone on Homeworld who wanted her dead. Whether that be one of the Diamonds or maybe a member of Pink's own court, Rose had help.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#50025: May 30th 2017 at 8:56:20 AM

Eyeball attested that she saw Rose kill Pink Diamond in an earlier episode when Blue Diamond was nowhere near her.


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