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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43676: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:32:21 AM

That's exactly what I mean, yes.

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smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43677: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:33:11 AM

Take Jasper's character in a direction where people can see her being nice or playful or funny, like the rest of the major gem characters.

Hell, she can still he a warrior without being offensive. Have her become fiercely protective of Steven and the others, rather than a violent brute.

And you can do the same with Bismuth. Have her help Lapis and Peridot build art, or create things that benefit people, rather than going all murderhappy at the drop of a hat.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43679: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:35:37 AM

I'd rather Bismuth and Jasper not go the same exact route. There different characters with different problems.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43680: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:36:28 AM

I don't think anyone was implying they should go the same route.

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GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43681: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:38:53 AM

Take Jasper's character in a direction where people can see her being nice or playful or funny, like the rest of the major gem characters. ....

And you can do the same with Bismuth

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43682: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:40:28 AM

Oh right, must've skimmed that.

I think if they develop them, it'd be for different reasons with similar results. Bismuth calms down from her desire for revenge, and Jasper grows out of her mold as an elite Quartz soldier to find a different purpose. They'd develop to be less violent, but they'd develop in different ways.

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43683: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:48:45 AM

Re: avoiding stereotypes, best solution is to add enough of that demographic that are not stereotypical that it no longer becomes a stereotype to have characters who do fit those characteristics.

For example, I think at this point we have enough characters of Irish descent in the general media that for them to be police officers is no longer a stereotype on its own. And so on. Have a Butch Lesbian who's really chill all the time. That way, for Jasper and Bismuth to be the way they are says more about them as individuals than a consistent aspect of the collective group.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43684: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:50:08 AM

Lapis and Peridot developed in similar, yet different ways. That's what I'm talking about with Jasper and Bismuth.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#43685: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:04:45 AM

Okay, firstly, I agree with Smokey that the gems are discount lesbians. Gay people are attracted to the same sex. Gems don't even have a same sex to be attracted to. And when a gem starts a relationship with a human, a female human is no more their sex than a male human is. Calling them lesbians is worse than calling sunflowers lesbians. Humans have more in common with sunflowers, despite superficial appearances. And that's the thing. Judging them on their superficial appearances is, if not racism, at least speciesm.

As for the offenses thing. No. Someone being offended by a portrayal does not automatically have valid criticism that means the writer needs to write better. If someone is offended that a character of the group they identify with is not a Mary Sue, it is not the writer's problem and they'd have to write worse to satisfy said individual. If I complained that I am offended because the villain is a white person and that's offensive, people would rightly call me out and that would include non-white's who would not only be justified in doing so, it would be wrong of them not to.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43686: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:09:12 AM

It does not automatically, but it doesn't mean a writer faced with valid criticism shouldn't write better.

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GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#43688: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:12:13 AM

It's the job of the writer to also try and weed out what's a valid criticism and what isn't. It's probably one of the most difficult parts of the creative process, because their involvement in the work means their relationship with it is different than most other people's.

There are some cases where an oft-repeated criticism doesn't necessarily stand up to scrutiny and a writer is correct in sticking to their guns and ignoring it, but just as often this can lead to ignoring a valid criticism that will let them improve their work.

It's tough.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#43689: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:12:45 AM

It does not automatically, but it doesn't mean a writer faced with valid criticism shouldn't write better.

Yes. But as I said, not everyone who is offended has valid criticism.

EDIT:[up]This is true.

edited 25th Sep '16 10:13:22 AM by Sereg

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43690: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:15:49 AM

That's pretty much what I'm saying. There's plenty of valid criticisms. Not every criticism is valid, however. For example, if somebody were to criticize Steven Universe as "SJW tumblr pandering bullshit", that's invalid because it makes no sense. If someone were to criticize the show using discount lesbians, then it is valid because there's at least some leg to their claims to stand on.

edited 25th Sep '16 10:16:14 AM by AdricDePsycho

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Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#43691: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:18:55 AM

[up] That's not a 1:1 comparison. If one were to say its need to make a message interferes with its ability to tell a story, that is a valid criticism. It's also worded in a less general way the "Tumblr pandering" complaint.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#43692: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:19:48 AM

[up][up]That I'll agree with, but it isn't what it sounded like you were saying to me. To me, it sounded like you were saying that a writer has to change their writing to fit every complaint they ever receive because if people are offended by something, it means you need to write better.

EDIT:[up]This is also true

edited 25th Sep '16 10:20:23 AM by Sereg

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43693: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:19:55 AM

[up][up]

How would you know that when you admit you don't even watch the show? The message is often up front, yes, but it doesn't beat you over the head with it like some shows trying to give a message to little kids.

[up]

Goodness no, that's not what I'd meant at all. I was mainly focusing on Sunchet's remarks that people shouldn't even try with representation if they're gonna get criticism for it.

edited 25th Sep '16 10:22:04 AM by AdricDePsycho

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Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#43694: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:21:48 AM

I mean, I'm not saying that I agree with that criticism, but it's something that I can see as being a concern.

EDIT:[up]Then again, I agree with you, but I also empathise with the point of being afraid of walking on eggshells. That said, my own original work that's closest to being finished stars a team with no duplicate ethnicotoes (and yes, the white girl is not the leader).

edited 25th Sep '16 10:24:39 AM by Sereg

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#43695: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:24:33 AM

[up][up] My point is that one is a general criticism and a vulgar one, the other is more specific and given how people are discussing the show, more valid.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43696: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:26:24 AM

So it's valid to say this show focuses too much on the message? Because all I'm getting is that you don't like the message or how people respond to it. You don't like analyzing it because you claim people "overanalyze" it or something.

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SalFishFin Since: Jan, 2001
#43697: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:27:24 AM

You mean like how this fandom has literally driven two people to near suicide? Fandoms should not have a kill count!

It was a reaction to offensive portrayals of characters. I wasn't a part of that, and it shouldn't have happened.

At the same time, how many unarmed Black people have been shot and killed by police this year? How many within the past four days? And in every case, the popular opinion and the entire justice system is still on the side of the police because of this stereotype that Black people are violent and thuggish. This is something that puts me in danger because I exist. So yeah, I have a problem with it, and I will continue to have a problem with it, thank you very much.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#43698: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:32:54 AM

So it's valid to say this show focuses too much on the message? Because all I'm getting is that you don't like the message or how people respond to it. You don't like analyzing it because you claim people "overanalyze" it or something.

It would be valid to claim that a show has destroyed its story to become a series of aesops being narrated, because a show that did that would be bad. I don't believe this show has done that, but I can understand that some people might feel that it is approaching that (even though I wouldn't agree)

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#43699: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:34:15 AM

[up][up]I think bullying someone into suicide because they drew a character viewed as obese to be thinner and the numerous underlying factors behind urban violence which should be discussed and should be addressed as quickly and effectively as possible for the sake of the people living in these cities, is an apples to oranges comparison.

edited 25th Sep '16 10:34:32 AM by Beatman1

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43700: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:34:24 AM

Other shows have done that, yes. But then if Steven Universe is allegedly doing that, point to me where it's doing that.

[up]

Would you stop bringing up the fan dumb? They have nothing to do with this discussion at all, again.

edited 25th Sep '16 10:34:59 AM by AdricDePsycho

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