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Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#43626: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:47:58 AM

I'm going to ask some questions, because I didn't mean for my earlier complaint to come across as random hating but genuine distress at this show being treated with so many microscopes to make it impossible to enjoy unless you are in a minority group concerning gender. I apologize for coming off as a random hater.

1. What codes a character as black or white when they're distinctly alien? Is it their look? Because that could honestly be seen as racist itself. White people can get afros. One name - Bob Ross. Is it their actions? Are the villains or coded heroes engaging in Uncle Tomfoolery or stereotypical actions befitting a rap video?

2. At what point does having to make all minority characters perfect become racist in and of itself? Even accepting that characters are coded, which I don't, the first "black" character on the show, with her red skin, is unambiguously heroic and clearly the strongest of the group initially. Would making a character villainous cancel that out? The main character's love interest, for lack of a better term, is not a white female. Does that just reinforce the negative stigma of a white male lead, even if he is only 13 and half alien?

3. We have seen "white" villains before, many of whom are viewed as irredeemable such as the Diamond group. Why is their evil fine but the evil of a character viewed as black such a crime?

This is not meant to be sarcastic. This is literally me trying to deal with a show that has so many layers of fan anger around it that the average male viewer cannot watch it without feeling like he needs to step on eggshells and over analyze just about everything.

edited 25th Sep '16 7:48:44 AM by Beatman1

SalFishFin Since: Jan, 2001
#43627: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:56:48 AM

I explained how Garnet is coded Black already. Its a few posts up. In and of itself, saying that a character looks or acts like they are of a certain race isn't racist.

And I explained the thing about afros and dreadlocs vs. hairstyles that resemble afros and dreadlocs. Hair texture is the important factor.

2 and 3 I can answer in the same way. It's not that Bismuth is a villain in and of itself. It's that her villainy is in a way that's stereotypical of the race she's coded as. Professor Snape is accidentally Jewish-coded (the stereotypical big-nosed witch was a Jewish stereotype but a lot of peoplw dont know that) but he's a villain because he's an asshole, not because he's a cheapskate. Bismuth being Black-coded, and villainous in a way that Black people are seen as villainous IRL, is really, really offensive. Hell, even Garnet's heroism is often in the context of being the biggest and strongest and most violent.

edited 25th Sep '16 7:57:53 AM by SalFishFin

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43628: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:57:08 AM

[up][up][up][up]

Just be warned, that may count as drama importation.

edited 25th Sep '16 7:57:20 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43629: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:01:39 AM

I thought drama importation is when you link to the source of the conflict or forum.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43630: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:03:09 AM

Discussing it could count as well, I believe. I remember discussing something about a writer on the Cracked thread that we all agreed to drop because we were all worried it would count as drama importation. It's whatever the thread is comfortable with as long as you don't bring in links.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43631: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:07:38 AM

I read the rules on it just now. It says just don't bring up events on other thread or sites. Or about particular people.

I didn't do any of that, so the post should be fine. Heavy emphasis on should...

edited 25th Sep '16 8:08:58 AM by GarnetRebeller96

Sunchet Since: Oct, 2010
#43632: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:08:16 AM

This blacklike character is violent, thats bad, this one is calm and helps others, thats magic negro. But If Garner was white coded, there would be no issue.

I repeat, this is why most people jest keep using white straight characters, - because this isnt worth the risk. Political correctness isnt some kind of "make sure that you font imply that butch women are violent" trip wire you need to remember about. Its a fucking laser grid of issues. And these lasers move and some are more visible then other and crossing different laser might alert different authority.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:10:42 AM by Sunchet

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43633: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:10:22 AM

That's laziness to keep using white characters because you're scared of offending someone. If you don't wanna offend them, then write them better. But in effort. And if you fail, then try again and do an even better job.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#43634: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:10:39 AM

You aren't going to escape criticism by not having diversity in your cast either.

Most of these social issues are very complex yes, you sorta have to accept people are gonna have criticisms no matter what you do because people have different opinions and just do the best you can. It's not any different from other aspects of your work in that sense, for some reason people are just very particular about these kinds of things specifically, as if a work having one or two Unfortunate Implications ruins the entire thing when that's not really how these things work.

SalFishFin Since: Jan, 2001
#43635: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:10:52 AM

[up][up][up]If people find it so inherently difficult to write Black people that aren't based on racist stereotypes, then yes, I'd agree with you.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:11:41 AM by SalFishFin

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43636: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:13:25 AM

I mean, here's how it sounds:

"I can't write black people without being criticized, therefore I shouldn't write them at all".

That's not how it works. You take those criticisms and try to write better.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43637: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:13:45 AM

Pretty much what Adric said. Butch lesbians are stereotyped as predatory and violent, which is exactly how Jasper acts. On the bright side, it seems like they'll be delving into that in the future, but if not, they sent a message to a bunch of people that butch women are violent predators. That's offensive as hell to me.

The solution is to try and be better, not to give up and only give representation to white people.

GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43638: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:14:14 AM

Basically. Having minority characters involve a lot of restricting to not truly offend anyone. And trying to not offend anyone and be safe as possible for the minority could be just as offensive.

As another person said. As awesome as SU is with it's diversity. There'll still be somebody that won't be happy with what the show strives for.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:16:02 AM by GarnetRebeller96

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#43639: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:14:40 AM

The problem with a conversation like this is by its very nature of being so personal and up to a wide variety of opinions is this isn't going to end with much in the way of progress. I'll be surprised if there's a definitive conclusion we could reach that everybody's fine with.

As such while there are points to make, I don't see much good coming out of it.

Just look at an attempt at coding the Gems, personal feelings aside. There's about as many interpretations as there are posters. At best it gives context to characters that are meant to be universally liked and at worst gives cliches to characters that aren't one-note either way.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#43640: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:15:17 AM

On the bright side, it seems like they'll be delving into that in the future, but if not, they sent a message to a bunch of people that butch women are violent predators.

There's pretty much no way they won't be delving into that I think, it's just a matter of when really.

. I'll be surprised if there's a definitive conclusion we could reach that everybody's fine with.

That's not exactly how most conversations about social issues really work, anyways.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:16:10 AM by Draghinazzo

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43641: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:15:39 AM

Fuckin' hell, I get annoyed every time I see a Latino shown as a thief on a TV show or a movie, I roll my eyes even if I like the character. Does that mean nobody should write Latinos? Fuck no, it means to write them better. It's better to try and come up a bit short then to not fucking try at all.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#43642: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:15:46 AM

Except when you go through millions of hoops, you do something subjectivity bad and still look stupid.

You see the problem here? People are over analyzing this show BECAUSE they feel a character is coded black. If you had a standard anime harem of white chicks with different hair colors, absolutely no one would be going to war every time something that was seen as coded incorrectly.

[up] Tell me about it.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:18:13 AM by Beatman1

Sunchet Since: Oct, 2010
#43643: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:18:33 AM

Adric, people are already offended by Steven and SU writers put more effort then anybody. Or do you think otherwise?

And yeah, you font escape criticism. But all you will have is one generic criticism. Putting effort only makes you a target for unpleasable crowd.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:19:12 AM by Sunchet

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43644: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:19:15 AM

Bismuth isn't so much coded black as she is black. It's incredibly obvious that they're depicting a black woman with her character.

And like it was said earlier in the conversation, you can have a villain without them being offensive. A villain can be bisexual without being a Depraved Bisexual. A lesbian can be your villain without being a Straw Feminist or a predator. A black person can be a villain without being a violent revolutionary.

[up] So what? SU should only have white and straight characters, because why even bother giving representation to those nasty minorities?

edited 25th Sep '16 8:20:48 AM by smokeycut

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43645: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:21:25 AM

Yes I think otherwise. The Crewniverse are putting in tremendous effort, that doesn't mean they're perfect.

I mean, think about it, in ten, twenty, maybe even forty years from now, how will people view this show? Will we think some parts of it are marred by Values Dissonance due to progression as a society?

Also, unpleasable crowd my ass. If your excuse is "nobody can be pleased", then you're just looking to use no effort.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:22:19 AM by AdricDePsycho

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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#43646: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:22:21 AM

People have different opinions on things. That goes for pretty much everything, and issues regarding ethnicity or social expectations are no exception. To say that people are unpleasable for having their own views on complex problems is a pretty myopic way of looking at it.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43647: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:24:12 AM

I mean, Smokey's complaint about Jasper is valid currently. She's a lesbian, she's seen this stuff in fiction, she knows what she's talking about. To imply that her or people like her are unpleasable and the writers shouldn't put any effort to avoid criticism is just flat out ignoring her criticisms.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43648: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:29:48 AM

But one must wonder would actual buff women really care about the depiction of Jasper and Bismuth that much?

This is a sincere and honest question.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:30:18 AM by GarnetRebeller96

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43649: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:31:12 AM

Draghinazzo has repeated that it's a bit subjective, so it would vary. I wouldn't be surprised if someone takes exception, however.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#43650: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:34:56 AM

If there's one last thing I might add. I think part of the problem about certain subject being offensive. Is that people tend to make them more offensive than it really is by ignoring context of the actual scenario and make it sound more unfortunate than it really is.

Which sometimes come across as seriously reaching.


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