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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43576: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:31:24 PM

There's a lot to disagree with in that "0 done right" article, no matter what race you are, but I hesitate to discount it entirely simply because it's a black woman's perspective on the show's treatment of black women and characters coded as black women.

Um...we're talking about the first article linked, right?

Because while I'll admit I didn't really go through the article, what I believe was the author's profile at the top of the page seemed to suggest that they were a guy.

Mind you, I think you're right that this is a discussion that needs to be had, but I'm not sure why you're saying the author's a black woman.

[up] Well, the Pizza family are minor characters. So, I guess the question is this - do we count every character on the show, or just the ones involved in the Myth Arc (in which case I think the only humans that would factor in would be Greg and Connie).

edited 24th Sep '16 6:35:28 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43577: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:33:29 PM

The Gems are not an example of Discount Lesbians. That trope is only used when aliens are treated as not counting as being gay for being aliens. It does not mean that all aliens fall under the trope; only when such is stated or implied by the narrative. Which is not the case for Steven Universe.

In the case of the Gems, the creators have, several times, confirmed that we're supposed to see the Gems as lesbians. So, despite the Gems being aliens who are technically sexless (from a scientific standpoint that is meaningless in this context), we're supposed to see them as women. And in the case of Ruby, Sapphire, and Pearl, as lesbians. At worst, this is used to get it past Cartoon Network, though for reasons listed before I'm starting to doubt that.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:34:42 PM by SilentColossus

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43578: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:33:46 PM

And the writer of the second article outright admitted in the article that they aren't black.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43579: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:39:11 PM

"Discount Lesbians are canon homosexual characters and couples who are either not human to begin with, come from alternate realities, have been magically or technologically altered in ways that affect their sexuality, etc., so that they don't really "count"."

From the article itself. That applies to SU.

MsAmiClassified Tired of givin' up the ghost from the fucking ocean Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Tired of givin' up the ghost
#43580: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:40:31 PM

[up]

didnt we already go over this in this very conversation

edited 24th Sep '16 6:42:38 PM by MsAmiClassified

moved to Oceanstuck because this handle was starting to bother me my tumblr
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43581: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:43:13 PM

[up] ...Does that disprove the accusation? Because I'm not sure if it does.

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43582: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:45:48 PM

It is in a rather weird place when the Gem race is all female anyways. I mean, would you call the New Mexico whiptail gay because its species is all female?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43583: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:46:12 PM

The gems, due to what they are as a species, cannot be gay. They are sexless beings, and a monogendered species, which means that they cannot be gay. They cannot be straight or bi either.

Gay people are gay because we are attracted to the same gender, as opposed to the opposite gender. If a species is comprised of only one gender, they cannot be gay, because there is nothing to contrast it to.

By being from a monogendered species, the gems cannot be gay within the context of the show.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#43584: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:46:31 PM

Arguing as to whether or not gems are an example of Discount Lesbians is putting way too much weight into whether or not an element of a work falls under a specific trope. That's acting as if part of a work falling into a trope overrides its value in the context of the actual work.

Tropes are descriptive, not prescriptive.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:47:41 PM by thatother1dude

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43585: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:49:11 PM

I mean, I'm starting to change positions towards siding with Smokey at this point (though I still hesitate to say "discount").

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43586: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:52:07 PM

Rebecca Sugar has, in several interviews, discussed the importance of including LGBT characters, and telling kids that LGBT characters exist. We have seen consistency with who the characters are attracted to, such as Pearl's interest in the Mystery Woman. So it can be infered that she is attracted to woman. In addition, Rebecca Sugar is bi, and has stated that she uses her experiences to create the show.

[up][up]

Also that.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:53:04 PM by SilentColossus

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43587: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:53:42 PM

[up][up] I think I'm inclined to agree as well.

I mean, I don't think this detracts from the value of these relationships in a kid's cartoon, but...well, I do think it falls into the Discount Lesbians trope.

[up] All of this still true, though.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:54:38 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43588: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:54:33 PM

I'd say it's a little bit of both, to be honest. Like, it's meant to depict lesbianism, but the Gems are from a single sex race where such distinctions don't exist. It may be seen as problematic in about twenty years or so, but it still doesn't completely detract from the series.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:55:28 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#43589: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:55:29 PM

Um...we're talking about the first article linked, right?

Because while I'll admit I didn't really go through the article, what I believe was the author's profile at the top of the page seemed to suggest that they were a guy.

Having checked again, I see you're right. My fault for jumping to conclusions.

Nonetheless, I am still inclined to see a black person's take on the show's treatment of black-coded characters as valuable in and of itself.

And no, the fact that the author does not include the Pizza family (or Mr. Smiley) in his analysis does not detract from the validity of his points.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43590: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:56:30 PM

Hold on: Karkat, aren't you black?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43591: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:58:52 PM

They are, by definition, homoromantic, and Rose Quartz shows that attraction to male Humans is possible. That, combined with Pearl's anguish at losing her, and her potential relationship with S, a Human woman, basically solidifies that Gems, though asexual, are explicitly mono-gendered, and would definitely identify as lesbian. The Crewniverse's input on this has been very adamant too: they are asexual, but do all identify as female, and, as such, 'count' as lesbians.

By the way, according to Word of God, Gems being mono-gendered female is explicitly because of a relative lack of mono-gendered female aliens existing in fiction, not any fear of the network not allowing homosexuality on-screen.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43592: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:59:50 PM

I don't know about the first article. I honestly cannot comment on it, because I don't know where I stand. I do fully agree with the second one though.

And the show does have LGBT themes. Last One Out Of Beach City was incredibly gay, and I loved it. It's my favorite episode so far. But having LGBT themes while using Discount Lesbians isn't impossible, or even very hard to do. They're not mutually exclusive.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#43593: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:00:03 PM

according to Word of God, Gems being mono-gendered female is explicitly because of a relative lack of mono-gendered female aliens existing in fiction, not any fear of the network not allowing homosexuality on-screen.
I'm gonna need a source on that.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43594: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:00:36 PM

I do know that Ian JQ compared the Gem race to the Namekian race from Dragon Ball.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43595: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:08:19 PM

Hold on: Karkat, aren't you black?

...Um, no, I'm pretty damn white.

What made you think I was black?

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43596: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:09:43 PM

For some reason I though you said at one point that you were in the MSPA thread.

Then again, I used to think you were a girl too, and we've been over that at least twice.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43597: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:12:12 PM

My google-fu isn't good enough, sorry. I do believe it was linked early in this thread, though.

darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#43598: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:26:53 PM

Also just speaking personally, although getting info from a representation of a gender/sexuality/race can be more informative than those not of that subculture/group, one person is perfectly capable of being flawed and a less than ideal example of a culture as a whole. So I'm not so willing to trust, one, or even two people of a group to suggest some greater authority on a topic.

If it was a consistent complain by several people that voice a similar opinion, that's entirely different.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#43599: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:28:34 PM

Asexual is a different thing.

I don't rightly know what the term is for having no sex.

Google says its "chaste" but I think its thinking of something else.

Words are hard.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#43600: Sep 24th 2016 at 7:28:59 PM

I don't rightly know what the term is for having no sex.
That's "celibate", but that's about refraining from sexual intercourse, not sexual attraction.

And I think you're confused by the two different meanings of asexual: one is "possessing No Biological Sex", the other is "lacking sexual attraction to anyone".

edited 24th Sep '16 7:31:41 PM by thatother1dude


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