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AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#43551: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:31:26 PM

Yeah. And it was a huge risk too, Nick had not had a hit since forever and the Loud House was their highest rated show in YEARS. Adding a gay, Black and White Male couple having a kid was a huge gamble on their part. And its amazing because the Loud House continued to grow! I love Nick. As a gay man, Im really grateful for them to do this.

Also, Smokey I love you and you do have a point and reason to be upset but that "If people keep bringing something up its true" isnt a good argument.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#43552: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:31:54 PM

Apparently the comics are a bit more explicit but I agree

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ruise Nyanpasu~ from your subconscious Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Nyanpasu~
#43553: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:33:56 PM

What features would someone have to have to be coded as white, anyway? That's always confused me.

Well I dunno if this is racist, but, uh...the nose...maybe...when combined with the general color scheme...ohgodpleasedonthateme

And yeah, Bubbline is frustrating as all heck.

Loves feel-good animation a whole lot.
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43554: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:34:48 PM

We shouldn't shut down this kind of discussion even if you don't agree with the statement or idea. Discussing these things is how we figure out if there is a problem, what that problem is, and how to fix it.

Talking about these things is good, I think.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#43555: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:35:54 PM

yes,but it often goes in circles because nobody can agree on anything

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43556: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:36:03 PM

@Pushover Media Critic

Sapphire seems "coded" black to me due to the lips and the VA, but she doesn't exhibit any of the stereotypes to me. And while most of the other characters voiced by black VAs seem it to me, for some reason I could never read Jasper as black either. I always saw her as more white or Native American for some reason. While there are legitimate times when "coding" (as in intentional subtext) is valid, it is often far more subjective than the wording suggests it to be.

@Ruise

At least among my Asian peers, stereotypical white people traits include having a huge bulbous nose (Pearl has half of that), blonde hair and blue eyes, and being really loud. It's not hard cut though, because Sailor Moon and Venus both fulfill a lot of those tropes but are canonically Japanese and meant to be seen as such by native audiences. I've seen some people argue that a lot of characters in anime are "coded" as white by self-hating Japanese ashamed of their Asian features due to globalism emphasizing white beauty standards, but that analysis, while it might be situationally true, fails to take into account the nuance of Values Dissonance and Mukokuseki ("white" foreigners in mainly Japanese settings often exhibit a lot of stereotypical tropes of their own, but differently than Western media).

edited 24th Sep '16 5:42:08 PM by AlleyOop

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43557: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:41:28 PM

We've already gone over how this show doesn't fit the definition of discount lesbians. Even then, Rebecca Sugar is bisexual, so why the hell would she have a reason to use the trope when there's already two non-Gem characters who are gay? She'd have to be a fucking idiot to do that! No offense Smokey, but you're wrong on this one.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:42:07 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#43558: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:41:37 PM

We shouldn't shut down this kind of discussion even if you don't agree with the statement or idea. Discussing these things is how we figure out if there is a problem, what that problem is, and how to fix it.

There really isn't anything meaningful to discuss. We'd just end up repeating ourselves, about what we think the characters are "coded" as. And that's just a bunch of BS stereotyping that nobody's going to agree on.

Just a reminder that Unfortunate Implications is an Audience Reaction. It's 100% the product of the audience's imagination, and agenda. It's never intended by the creator.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:41:49 PM by xanderiskander

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#43559: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:42:16 PM

My mom thinks white people age fast, but other than that, I have no idea what would code someone as white. Other than not having black hair naturally, I guess (which is why, whenever I saw a cartoon character with pale skin and black hair, I'd assume they were East Asian).

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43560: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:43:27 PM

They could be coded as white people if they're absolutely pathetic and are as bland as Kraft mayo.

And I say this as a person who is half-Caucasian: white people suck.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#43561: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:44:43 PM

In stories that's probably just a result of having generic protagonists so that audiences will "relate" to them easier. It just so happens white people are in a lot more stories, hence the association.

Ruise Nyanpasu~ from your subconscious Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Nyanpasu~
#43562: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:48:23 PM

"white" foreigners in mainly Japanese settings often exhibit a lot of stereotypical tropes of their own, but differently than Western media

Unrelated to SU but on that topic, I found it hilarious that a recent chapter of Tanaka-kun wa Itsumo Kedaruge has Tanaka treat a blonde-haired boy as a foreigner on first impression when half the cast is blonde.

Loves feel-good animation a whole lot.
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43563: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:54:17 PM

@Coding: Bismuth is an example of a coded character. She has dreads, she's voiced by a black woman, etc. If you were to make a human AU version, you would instantly jump to "black woman with dreadlocks".

@The discussion being allowed: It's a discussion about the show and it's themes, therefore it's allowed.

@Discount lesbians: Liara from Mass Effect is an example of Discount Lesbians very similar to this show. All female species, technically genderless/sexless, is female in pronouns and appearance, but technically can't be gay because it's an all female species. That applies to the gems too, so no, I'm correct.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43564: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:55:19 PM

Then explain Pearl and the Mystery Girl, which you were all excited about the other day.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43565: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:56:54 PM

Pearl is from an all female species, therefore homosexuality does not exist as a concept to her. S is definitely gay or bi, but Pearl technically isn't gay or straight, or bi or pan or anything.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43566: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:59:29 PM

I could've sworn the other day you were saying that the show was not engaged in that trope. Or it may have been someone on Reddit, I dunno.

Either way, I see your point, but I don't know if "discount" is the proper term to describe it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
MsAmiClassified Tired of givin' up the ghost from the fucking ocean Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Tired of givin' up the ghost
#43567: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:00:43 PM

basically what ultimatum said

also i kinda find it hard to sympathize when my brain's criteria for deciding if a nonhuman character is coded as a race is "their skin color?? is the same as that race's???"

moved to Oceanstuck because this handle was starting to bother me my tumblr
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#43568: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:00:49 PM

Have to remember there are still limits to what Cartoon Network can show if they don't want to cut the show out of several international markets entirely.

What they've allowed with Steven Universe shows how far things have advanced even this decade.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43569: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:03:31 PM

Again, Clarence had a gay couple and Steven Universe has two explicit gay characters. The international market reasoning is BS made up by Marceline's voice actress to mess with some fans at a con when she decided to troll them about Marceline and PB being a couple (and yes, she was trolling, she fucking tweeted about how she liked messing with fans at cons, so she basically made up a bunch of bullshit to screw with fans).

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ruise Nyanpasu~ from your subconscious Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Nyanpasu~
#43570: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:04:31 PM

I like Discount Lesbians just as well so it doesn't matter to me whether they are or aren't.

I guess the 'problem' isn't so much the Gems being discount lesbians, as not having enough well-established-as-gay-or-bi human characters?

Although they are there, they/that part of their character just haven't gotten so much focus.

Loves feel-good animation a whole lot.
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#43571: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:07:54 PM

There's a lot to disagree with in that "0 done right" article, no matter what race you are, but I hesitate to discount it entirely simply because it's a black woman's perspective on the show's treatment of black women and characters coded as black women. I'm not going to say the patterns she identifies are not real. In fact...

When she lays it all out like that, yeah, I can see how the black-coded Gems are nearly always presented as more masculine than other Gems, which is persistent stereotype about black women that needs to stop. There's room for improvement there. There's definitely room for improvement in the makeup of the Crewniverse if it really has no black women despite the show featuring so many black/black-coded, female/female-coded characters. I would rather the shows I love have their flaws pointed out by people in a position to notice them, so they can improve.

That said, I hope the improvements are made and the article writer then gives the show another chance. If every lost viewer is lost forever, no second chances, then there's not much of an incentive to improve upon the things that drove them away.

Sapphire seems "coded" black to me due to the lips and the VA, but she doesn't exhibit any of the stereotypes to me

I agree, and I also think Ruby is coded Asian due to her VA and her sort of "kung fu hotshot" design elements. If we see more of them and this coding is made more explicit, that could be a great basis for improving on the masculine-black vs. feminine-not black problem the author complained about.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:10:11 PM by Karalora

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43572: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:08:59 PM

Anyways, my original post still stands. I feel like SU does make a huge effort to be progressive, but it fails in certain areas. I've seen black people I follow on tumblr who are upset at Garnet being a Magical Negro, or Bismuth being a violent revolutionary.

And I have my own discomforts with how Jasper's corruption happened due to how similar it is to AIDS, but is used as a punishment or way to bring down a villain.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43573: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:11:03 PM

I'm not gonna act like the show is perfect or say that the people criticizing it are blowing it out of proportion, but I do wonder how people are gonna look at this show in twenty or forty years and react to it. Will we as a society have progressed to the point where some parts of SU are looked at with Values Dissonance?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ruise Nyanpasu~ from your subconscious Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Nyanpasu~
#43574: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:15:44 PM

And I have my own discomforts with how Jasper's corruption happened due to how similar it is to AIDS, but is used as a punishment or way to bring down a villain.

I'd just thought of it as ST Ds in general, but yeah it's completely understandable to be uncomfortable with that.

But "c'mere sis" was just beautiful igjiwmoqmtoi

Loves feel-good animation a whole lot.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43575: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:30:11 PM

Again, the whole thing should be discounted simply because it ignores the entire Pizza family.


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