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SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43526: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:06:53 PM

We also have to keep in mind that Nicki Minaj and Uzo Aduba are likely much harder to get than any other actor. Especially Nicki Minaj. So before saying they're benched because racism, also think about budget and availability.

Part of me thinks the reason some people are saying Pearl is coded as white, and Jasper and Amethyst as black, is because Pearl lacks features like thick lips, unlike Amethyst and Jasper.

I'm not accusing anybody in this thread of that, nor even the authors of those articles, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people felt that way.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:10:07 PM by SilentColossus

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43527: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:12:29 PM

Any time someone asks a hard question about the gems' gender/sexuality, it is always dodged by the crew and CN with "genderless space rocks". Discount Lesbians is a trope, and every major lesbian in the show falls under that trope.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43528: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:14:02 PM

Additionally, the argument that Sardonyx is completely portrayed as positive, while Sugilite is completely portrayed as negative, is ignoring the end of Sardonyx' introductory episode: where Sardonyx is taken completely off the table because Pearl fucked up, and Sugilite is brought in to solve the problem with no complaints from anyone, herself or otherwise.

MsAmiClassified Tired of givin' up the ghost from the fucking ocean Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Tired of givin' up the ghost
#43529: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:15:21 PM

*is bored*

*checks thread*

not this shit again

moved to Oceanstuck because this handle was starting to bother me my tumblr
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43530: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:15:33 PM

[up]x4 It's true that Pearl doesn't have thick lips, while Amethyst and Garnet do, but Rose also has thick lips, and I think most people have her as coded-white. Meanwhile, Bismuth does not have thick lips. Point being, I'm not sure if that's a reliable indicator either.

(Also worth noting that Yellow Diamond appears to have thick lips as well. Make of that what you will.)

edited 24th Sep '16 5:16:57 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43531: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:16:23 PM

If this subject keeps being brought up, maybe that's because it's a problem seen by multiple people, and has some basis to it.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43532: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:16:35 PM

It's very obvious that we are supposed to see the Gems as female, and characters like Ruby, Sapphire, and Pearl as lesbians. That shouldn't be dodged. and should be accepted as such. Rebecca Sugar has made it very clear that this is a message that should come across.

They're also alien rocks, because a cartoon Sci-Fi/Fantasy/Comedy series is awesome.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
Ruise Nyanpasu~ from your subconscious Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Nyanpasu~
#43534: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:17:40 PM

Well, Pearl does have very 'ginger' features overall, but idk if that makes her coded a certain way.

I definitely think all the Homeworld gems are pretty neutral on that front.

And, ah, I think the show is good, in general, and not especially 'problematic.' tongue

Loves feel-good animation a whole lot.
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43535: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:18:46 PM

[up][up]

From the article itself:

Note that they're Discount Lesbians only if they're included in the story in a way that obviates the need to address the associated issues of sexuality. This is usually done through othering homosexuality by associating it only with characters who have conspicuously different traits from the viewers. Characters used to draw attention to those issues are inversions, although this can still fall into Fantastic Aesop or Space Whale Aesop. If they're stated to be homosexual they're not Discount Lesbians, just a non-human who happens to be gay.

They're not referred to as gay in the show, but interviews (and the subtext of the show) have made it clear.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:19:37 PM by SilentColossus

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#43536: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:19:35 PM

What features would someone have to have to be coded as white, anyway? That's always confused me.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#43537: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:20:05 PM

You see, white is seen as normal, so you're coded as white if you lack the traits to get you coded as something else.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#43538: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:20:26 PM

@Ruise: Like I said in my original post, I like the show, I like the characters. That doesn't stop me from being made uncomfortable by certain things the show does that I find offputting or offensive. I also have issues with We Bear Bears for how the one major asian character is a genius who attends college despite being incredibly young.

Liking a show doesn't mean I can't point out failings when I see them.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:20:49 PM by smokeycut

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43539: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:22:46 PM

The solution to this would probably to include recurring human LGBT characters, whose status as such is made plainly evident to the viewer.

I'm wondering, however, if the Gems being space rocks is the only way Cartoon Network will allow it. I'm not really willing to lay the blame at the Crewinverse's feet here, I suppose.

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43540: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:24:26 PM

Well there's the mystery girl and Mr. Smiley.

[up]

If they were against it, they wouldn't have had a lesbian couple on Clarence.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:24:58 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#43541: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:24:30 PM

As no one in show says "technically they're not woman" it really doesn't count as much of a dodge. It's more obvious behind the scenes than it is in series.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#43542: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:24:40 PM

I have heard through the grapevine that The Loud House (which I've been meaning to watch but have honestly forgotten about) has had an openly gay couple of gay men on-screen.

Would be disappointing that CN would not allow them to do the same with SU.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:25:04 PM by Draghinazzo

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43543: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:25:41 PM

Again, Clarence has a lesbian couple, and I believe they had a male gay couple once, but they cut out a scene of them kissing.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#43544: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:26:17 PM

@Collosus: Oh. I guess that explains why people say Pearl is coded as white, when she isn't really coded as anything, then. :/

[up][up] Yeah, The Loud House does have a recurring gay couple. They're the dads of the main character's best friend.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:27:24 PM by DeathsApprentice

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43545: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:27:39 PM

Yep, Clyde's parents. They don't outright blare "look they're a gay married couple" but it's pretty obvious without being Anvilicious or token. Also a pretty funny scene in its own right. Not sure if it's up on Youtube anymore though.

[up] I'm not really a fan of "coding" because often it often turns out to be full of confirmation bias or post hoc analysis (see: all the times a seemingly straight character is claimed to be "coded" as queer for the sake of Shipping Goggles rather than genuine Ship Tease). I can sorta see why Pearl is seen by some people as coded white because she's got light skin and hair and eyes, but coding implies a level of intentionality on the part of the showrunners that's unlikely to be there.

Also it reads of reinforcing the whole "white as default" Mukokuseki problem. For my part (and this might be a minority opinion) nowadays I tend to "see" Pearl as Asian partly because of her VA and partly because as an Asian American who grew up in a majority Asian community and knew other Asian American women who sounded like that, it became an easy assumption to make.

edited 24th Sep '16 5:32:21 PM by AlleyOop

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#43546: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:27:57 PM

If this subject keeps being brought up, maybe that's because it's a problem seen by multiple people, and has some basis to it.
Or it means people on the internet tend to overanalyze things. Which is 100% true.

HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#43547: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:28:30 PM

http://bloodnok.net/wav/hullo-jeeeeem1.wav

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#43548: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:28:53 PM

[up][up] I know that Clarence has gay characters, but I'm curious: how often to they appear, and what do they do (i.e. how intimate are they?)?

Oh God! Natural light!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43549: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:30:22 PM

To be fair, this specific issue: that all of the Gems (and only the Gems) who could possibly be coded black are representations of negative black stereotypes if you squint your eyes and tilt your head hard enough while looking at the show through a black-tinted microscope, isn't actually an issue that has come up in this thread before.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43550: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:31:00 PM

For fuck's sakes, even Gravity Falls ended with a confirmation that yes, Blubs and Durland are gay as hell.

If anything, you know what I'm more disappointed with? How Adventure Time refuses to outright confirm that Marceline and Princess Bubblegum were a couple. Steven Universe allegedly using discount lesbianism isn't something I agree with, but Adventure Time keeps on implying it so much without outright stating it that I'm halfway tempted to call it queerbaiting (if the term didn't make me want to vomit).

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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