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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#40676: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:44:26 PM

The Gems are space commies if anything.

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40677: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:44:57 PM

[up][up] It isn't, but it's somewhat related; we don't know what sort of economy the gems have, but if it's remotely capitalistic (even and in fact especially state capitalism), there's an intrinsic need for expansion to prevent society from collapsing, and that's an issue we humans are nowhere close to resolving/sidestepping by expanding into space.

edited 16th Aug '16 5:52:10 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#40678: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:46:20 PM

Isn't their society kinda fascist?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40679: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:47:05 PM

[up] It's certainly totalitarian, and when you get down to it, the left-right distinction doesn't really matter that much in a society that's sufficiently authoritarian.

edited 16th Aug '16 5:47:29 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40680: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:47:16 PM

Anyway, my point isn't "Gems don't have a right to exist" it's that "They don't have a right to destroy everything else in pursuit of their existence."

I'd apply the same thing to humanity. Part of that being self-preservation, obviously, but another part being I just don't see is us as special enough to forgo consideration for everything else on the planet.

edited 16th Aug '16 5:47:45 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40681: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:49:55 PM

[up] My point is that if Gems must, either for reasons relating to the structure of their society that they cannot/don't know how to resolve and/or as an intrinsic part of their biology continuously expand onto other inhabited worlds, one cannot really fault them for doing so, even if we ourselves are equally compelled to try and stop them; it's interstellar realpolitik.

edited 16th Aug '16 5:50:58 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40682: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:52:21 PM

Maybe. But this has still been framed as a clear "good vs. bad" scenario. Extra complexities aside, I don't see that changing. The characters themselves probably need to believe it.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#40683: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:52:36 PM

The Gems are space commies if anything.
But communism is usually anti-religious, favoring an idea of a "collective/greater good", even if actual communist leaders cultivate a Cult of Personality. Homeworld gems are explicitly doing everything for the sake of their leaders.

there's an intrinsic need for expansion to prevent society from collapsing.
You can have one need that does not override all other needs and morals.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#40684: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:53:38 PM

My question in this case would be "is eliminating all life on the planet necessary in order for them to gather the resources they need to continue living?"

I honestly don't know that the show has given us a definitive answer on that but if the answer is "no" then yes I would consider that pretty heinous.

higurashimerlin Since: Aug, 2012
#40685: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:54:32 PM

Well communism is an anarchist philosophy so it doesn't really describe homeworld

When life gives you lemons, burn life's house down with the lemons.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40686: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:55:27 PM

[up][up] Heinous by some standards of moral philosophy, but (ironically) oh so very human.

[up] When most people say "communist" they mean Stalinism.

edited 16th Aug '16 5:56:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40687: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:56:50 PM

[up][up][up]The show might not have answered that directly, but Yellow Diamond's contempt at the thought of organic life leads me to believe that even if killing all the life on the planet wasn't strictly necessary, they'd still go for it.

edited 16th Aug '16 5:57:42 PM by LSBK

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#40688: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:57:11 PM

I really don't think Homeworld's resource shortage came from trying to sustain themselves, I think it came from their expansion attempts costing more than they gain.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#40689: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:59:18 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if the shortage came about after losing Pink Diamond and the war for Earth.

Oh really when?
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#40690: Aug 16th 2016 at 5:59:33 PM

It clearly isn't. For an immortal species taking as much as they need out of the environment and then leaving the rest alone should be simple. But Gems don't want to JUST make new Gems, they want to turn every inch of rock into thier ideal colony. "It Could Have Been Great" really proved that the Gems are purely colonial and aren't just doing stuff to survive. The issue is that Homeworld doesn't care about organic life at all.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40691: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:00:25 PM

[up][up][up] I'm inclined to think that gems cannot coexist with organic life; in creating Steven, Rose was trying to find a way to Take a Third Option.

edited 16th Aug '16 6:01:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40692: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:01:57 PM

Peridot even says she's come up with plans to harvest the Earth's resources without destroying all life on the planet. If she can do it, I find it hard to believe they don't have other people who could do the same. Yellow Diamond straight up said she wasn't interested. Admittedly, her vendetta against Earth likely feed heavily into that, but it's still telling.

edited 16th Aug '16 6:03:59 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40693: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:03:15 PM

[up] Peridot argued Earth had potentially unique resources (presumably due to its biosphere) that could be of use to homeworld, and thus that the biosphere might be worth preserving, presumably for reasons other than production of more gems, which isn't quite the same thing as coming up with a way to avoid having to destroy the native life of planets to sustain their society, just a reason not to destroy one particular world.

Moreover, it's also worth noting that, especially considering how rigid and hierarchical gem society is shown to be, it's entirely possible such ideas never occurred to gemkind. There's countless examples of inventions/innovations in human that could have easily come to be decades or even centuries before they did in history, if only someone had thought of it. There's also plenty of good ideas that didn't become widespread until long after their inception due to some combination of lack of interest and skepticism.

My point is basically that, dependent on the creators willingness to explore such topics, Gem society is (presumably) the way it is for a reason beyond just the callousness of the Diamonds.

edited 16th Aug '16 6:14:57 PM by CaptainCapsase

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40694: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:06:12 PM

Hah, Peridot is Avengers EMH Mar-vell

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#40695: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:13:11 PM

The highly expansionist, militarized nature of Gem society, where basically everyone is expected to contribute someway to this expansion, tells me that they expect to encounter resistance. I have to imagine they've encountered more advanced species than humanity who asked them "please don't destroy our planet" only for the Gems to do it anyway.

Humanity might actually been lucky in that we weren't advanced enough at that point to know the Gems were dangerous to our existence. Modern humanity would probably try to stop them and get stomped.

Peridot refers to the presence of "Stevens" as an infestation. And then tries to kill him. Which really shows how they view organic life, even if it can communicate with them.

edited 16th Aug '16 6:14:34 PM by SilentColossus

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40696: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:15:42 PM

That brings me back to my question about Blue Diamond's diplomatic Gems. Maybe when they encounter people who can actually talk or seem like they might be able to fight back they first try to negotiate. If negotiations fall through, or they just think they're in no danger, they take everything.

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#40697: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:16:43 PM

I'm inclined to think that gems cannot coexist with organic life
They compete for different uses of the same resources, but that doesn't mean either has to take from the other.

I still think evidence suggests new gems can be made using uninhabited planets—not just enough to sustain themselves, but to grow at a manageable rate—but the Diamonds have thrown away any ethics or value for biodiversity for the sake of expanding as thoroughly and quickly as possible.

edited 16th Aug '16 6:18:09 PM by thatother1dude

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40698: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:16:49 PM

[up][up][up] Earlier the topic of spacefaring species other than the gems was broached; the extremely militaristic nature of gem society could easily be due to them facing (either imagined, inflated, or real) external threats of some sort, which very naturally leads to the kinds of ruthless power plays we see between nations on Earth throughout history.

Say, for example, that this external threat (past or present) is some sort of all consuming (organic) Horde of Alien Locusts; in such a scenario, the gems being extremely wary of organic life would be entirely rational, from their own perspective.

[up] Population ecology suggests that when multiple species are present in a habitat which occupy the same ecological niche (Apex predator in the case of any intelligent lifeform), one will inevitably be forced out of the habitat and/or go extinct. Considering how other apex predators fare when humans colonize an environment (wiped out or pushed into the least desirable areas), it's not surprising that something similar would occur with multiple intelligent species.

edited 16th Aug '16 6:22:03 PM by CaptainCapsase

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#40699: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:17:30 PM

Homeworld's form of rule seems to basically be an oligarchy, with an aristocratic elite, that handles smaller decisions, and presides over lower castes.

My guess is that one reason the rebellion was able to be succeed is that the aristocratic gems who make the decisions don't tend to be particularly strong, and soldier & builder gems, are likely more numerous than them. it also seems like part of Rose's strategy was to take out aristocratic gems (why they attacked Sapphire), so that homeworld soldiers would become disorganized without their leadership.

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#40700: Aug 16th 2016 at 6:23:09 PM

The thing is that Gems don't fit into ecology as we know it. They are The Needless and thus only need resources to be created.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

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